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ESB eCars pricing introduction

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,358 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    Banks of slow chargers (AC) should be at places where people stop for the day or overnight like at home or at work, at commuter train stations and at airports

    Banks of 50kW DC chargers should be at places where people stop for at least a little while, like half an hour / an hour, like big supermarkets / shopping centres, city centres, etc.

    Banks of super fast DC chargers (>300kW) should be at places where people stop for as little time as possible and where the main reason for stopping is that a charge is needed: motorway service stations


    Agree. But the problem is, when you have very few >50kW chargers anyway, and no esb ones, what do you do when someone is stopped at the 50kW SPOF "for a little while" but you want to "stop for as little time as possible"


    I know for my car - and the same would be true for any >50kWh battery EV - that a 45 minute stop at a 50kW charger doesn't really add more than 40-50% SOC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Agree. But the problem is, when you have very few >50kW chargers anyway, and no esb ones, what do you do when someone is stopped at the 50kW SPOF "for a little while" but you want to "stop for as little time as possible"

    Yes that is an issue. Not just for cars that take more than 30-60 minutes to fill like your car, but also for people that will be going about their business for longer than 30-60 minutes. I guess a trip to a city center or a cinema could easily take a couple of hours.

    I didn't want to clutter my post with it, but I feel there should not be an overcharge fee for these sorts of semi-destination fast chargers. Or not for the first few hours anyway. This is of course a luxury we could only afford if we literally had banks of DC fast chargers at those locations. And not just a charger that could only be used by one car like the current ESB fast chargers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,358 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    This is where I think banks of 20-25kW DC chargers would be ideal. Much cheaper than 50kW and you can install more.
    These are what should have been in blanch. If you take the peak power (50kW DC + 43kW fast AC + 2*22kW AC) of 137kW and divide that by 20 you could have 7 20kW DC chargers. Much better than the current solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,358 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    And imagine that a 20kW DC charger will fully charge any of the first gen EVs in 1 hour, and any of the second gen 30-40kWh ones in less than 2 hours.

    Even my car with a 90kWh battery would get a fair few kms added in 1-2 hours of 20kW DC. Without the need to rush back to the car after 40 minutes to avoid overstay


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Mike9832


    ELM327 wrote: »
    And imagine that a 20kW DC charger will fully charge any of the first gen EVs in 1 hour, and any of the second gen 30-40kWh ones in less than 2 hours.

    Even my car with a 90kWh battery would get a fair few kms added in 1-2 hours of 20kW DC. Without the need to rush back to the car after 40 minutes to avoid overstay

    Read somewhere that they have a drive in cinema in Norway with 22kW AC/DC charging

    Thought that was a good idea


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Mike9832 wrote: »
    Read somewhere that they have a drive in cinema in Norway with 22kW AC/DC charging

    Thought that was a good idea

    Heats your car up while enjoying the flick!


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yeah I wasn't adamant in my point that there must be 50kW DC chargers ad semi-destination points. If 22kW chargers are much cheaper to deploy, than they will be fine too. Or a combination of both with a premium per kWh for the faster charger and an overstay fee.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    AC is much cheaper again and you get 2x 22 Kw in 1 rather than having to have 2 separate DC chargers.

    We need manufacturers to start installing more powerful chargers because I can't see banks of 20 Kw DC chargers being installed any time soon and 1 x DC would be just 1 charger when 1 AC has 2x 22 Kw outlets.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Wish the new app/site had a scale for the peak times graph, to give some sort of idea around the likelyhood of a charger being in use. If you look at the response message from the call to "getStationPeakTimeData" there's a numeric value. Blanch's peak is around 788 (whatever that means), while Finglas peak is around 159. No idea what that means, but if 1000 meant it was in use on average 100% of the time in that hour, then 788 might mean something to me. Peak usage times are always going to look similar, but peak usage for 1 charger might be manic, while another could be a 30 minutes of use in an hour.

    I scraped all the charger data. Drumroll..... Blanchardstown, Lucan and Naas are the busiest chargers in the country. You've the least chance of those chargers being available compared to any other chargers. Followed up by portlaoise.
    I'm still not sure what the unit of measurement is, but now i've some idea of what the "peak times" mean. Shannon for example looks about 7 times more likely to be available than Blanchardstown.

    I can share it out (in some form - it's all stored on a local DB) after I get a few more days data. Interested to know if anyone has any ideas what the units might be. Blanch peaks at 13:00 with 789 units, and is at it quietest at 3am with 36 units. A wild guess might be that for that hour (60 minutes) over the last 30 days (1800 minutes) it has been in use 789 of those minutes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ... when 1 AC has 2x 22 Kw outlets.

    Im still a little skeptical about that. Maybe its true in some instances but its certainly true in others that its nowhere near 2x22kW... more like 2x3.6kW.

    Is there any data to show how many of the ~900 AC sites have 2x22kW available?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    KCross wrote:
    Is there any data to show how many of the ~900 AC sites have 2x22kW available?

    Aren't they 22 kW with 2 connectors so technically 2x11 kW?


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lads, as I've said before, the AC chargers are majority 22 Kw x 2, they are 22 Kw for each outlet with the exception ( and I've said this many times ) of some 3 Kw chargers still in circulation but are marked as 22 x 2 Kw on the map. They are easily identifiable they look smaller and old. hard to describe and I have no pics.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Lads, as I've said before, the AC chargers are majority 22 Kw x 2, they are 22 Kw for each outlet with the exception ( and I've said this many times ) of some 3 Kw chargers still in circulation but are marked as 22 x 2 Kw on the map. They are easily identifiable they look smaller and old. hard to describe and I have no pics.

    Any of these?
    https://www.irishevowners.ie/charge-points/


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Those pictures are appalling but the EMTMax looks like the ones I found to be 3 kw, but I can't be sure because the pics are so bad.

    There are at lease 3 AC points I found in Arkow for instance to be 3 Kw as I discovered from the Leaf spy app the time I had the Leaf with the I3 I wouldn't know what power I'm getting from anything, I do wish there was a similar app for the i3.

    I think there are some 7 Kw AC points too.

    I remember calling ecars to have the charge points I discovered to be far less than 22 Kw changed on the map but of course they wouldn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭ei9go


    unkel wrote: »
    Yes that is an issue. Not just for cars that take more than 30-60 minutes to fill like your car, but also for people that will be going about their business for longer than 30-60 minutes. I guess a trip to a city center or a cinema could easily take a couple of hours.

    I didn't want to clutter my post with it, but I feel there should not be an overcharge fee for these sorts of semi-destination fast chargers. Or not for the first few hours anyway. This is of course a luxury we could only afford if we literally had banks of DC fast chargers at those locations. And not just a charger that could only be used by one car like the current ESB fast chargers.

    Thats nonsense

    You can't have people parked for hours at any fast charger


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ei9go wrote: »
    Thats nonsense

    You can't have people parked for hours at any fast charger

    They would be the new slow charger if you like. That's why I call them semi-destination chargers. Fast charging in a hurry will be mostly done at 300kW+ super fast charging stations (these already exist of course, Tesla superchargers and Ionity super fast chargers - maybe the ESB will install some by 2024 if we are lucky and they haven't used up our ring fenced tax money on their pensions instead)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,358 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ei9go wrote: »
    Thats nonsense

    You can't have people parked for hours at any fast charger
    25-50kW DC is not "fast" charging anymore. Fast is 150-350.
    New cars now take over an hour if charging at 50kW
    My car takes 1.5 hours to do 20-80% at 50kW despite drawing 50kW the whole way!


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    I scraped all the charger data. Drumroll..... Blanchardstown, Lucan and Naas are the busiest chargers in the country. You've the least chance of those chargers being available compared to any other chargers. Followed up by portlaoise.
    I'm still not sure what the unit of measurement is, but now i've some idea of what the "peak times" mean. Shannon for example looks about 7 times more likely to be available than Blanchardstown.

    I can share it out (in some form - it's all stored on a local DB) after I get a few more days data. Interested to know if anyone has any ideas what the units might be. Blanch peaks at 13:00 with 789 units, and is at it quietest at 3am with 36 units. A wild guess might be that for that hour (60 minutes) over the last 30 days (1800 minutes) it has been in use 789 of those minutes.

    Not much to show (been a busy few evenings so i've not touched this until now), but I picked a few of the chargers on my route from Cork - Galway as an example. I'd have to charge around half way, so Limerick (x2), Shannon and Ennis would be my options.
    I knew i'd be arriving at them between 9-11am, so I limited my results to those hours.

    image.png

    Limerick City, or Shannon look to be my best bets for an empty charger. I get the impression that the max value a charger gets per hour is a shade over 1000. That's the highest i've seen in a few of the park and ride slow chargers.

    I plan to pull the data every few days maybe, and see how things change over time.
    Pity the app/website doesnt clearly show this, but maybe it's just me that wants it. Let me know if it'd be of any use to others.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    Not much to show (been a busy few evenings so i've not touched this until now), but I picked a few of the chargers on my route from Cork - Galway as an example. I'd have to charge around half way, so Limerick (x2), Shannon and Ennis would be my options.
    I knew i'd be arriving at them between 9-11am, so I limited my results to those hours.

    image.png

    Limerick City, or Shannon look to be my best bets for an empty charger. I get the impression that the max value a charger gets per hour is a shade over 1000. That's the highest i've seen in a few of the park and ride slow chargers.

    I plan to pull the data every few days maybe, and see how things change over time.
    Pity the app/website doesnt clearly show this, but maybe it's just me that wants it. Let me know if it'd be of any use to others.

    Fascinating. Anyway to visually show the probability of being free on a map? Maybe a mash up of sorts in power BI?


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Dardania wrote: »
    Fascinating. Anyway to visually show the probability of being free on a map? Maybe a mash up of sorts in power BI?

    Probably. Pretty sure the geolocations are available from the api too, so i'll update the script to pull and store those next chance I get. Should be no bother. Grafana does maps too, so might be easiest to visualise it there. Thanks for the feedback.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭innrain


    I scraped all the charger data.


    What are you using as data source? The old kml file? as cpinfo?

    http://esb.ie/electric-cars/kml/charging-locations.kml
    or some new api from driivz?


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    innrain wrote: »
    What are you using as data source? The old kml file? as cpinfo?

    http://esb.ie/electric-cars/kml/charging-locations.kml
    or some new api from driivz?

    Driivz one - 2 calls; one for stations, the other for their peak times. Tis json formatted. Easy to parse. I'm taking a shot in the dark at the station ids though, just calling IDs 1-2000 and if I get a station, I save it.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Anyone having problems logging into ecar app?

    Says my creditentials are not correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭innrain


    TheTorment wrote: »
    Anyone having problems logging into ecar app?

    Says my creditentials are not correct.

    It works fine for me


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    innrain wrote: »
    It works fine for me

    I can log into website on laptop using same credentials but not for app


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭innrain


    TheTorment wrote: »
    I can log into website on laptop using same credentials but not for app

    I was checking on the phone. Went through menus. Checked the bill. Semms fine


  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭jspuds


    TheTorment wrote: »
    Anyone having problems logging into ecar app?

    Says my creditentials are not correct.

    Had this a few times recently with the iPhone, closing and reopening app works for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    ELM327 wrote: »
    25-50kW DC is not "fast" charging anymore. Fast is 150-350.
    New cars now take over an hour if charging at 50kW
    My car takes 1.5 hours to do 20-80% at 50kW despite drawing 50kW the whole way!

    Apart of the small detail that there is only one car that can take more than 70kW DC - Tesla M3 (and S). And just a couple that can take up to 70 kW DC. So what's the point talking 350 or even 150 kW? In grand scheme of things we're still at 50-70 kW market standard. We may move above 70 kW requirement in next 2 years. But let's see the charging curve of the few "100 kW DC capable" cars coming to the market soon. I wouldn't be surprised if they supported only 70-80 kW in reality.

    So no, 50 kW is still fast, at least in this particular market.

    How many of those Teslas as a % of all EVs in Ireland?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Uhh, the Kona 64kWh, e-Niro, e-Soul can all take more than 70kW and are available today. E-Tron, EQC, I-Pace
    By the end of the year there will also be the ID.3, eCorsa, e208.

    49.6% of BEVs sold new in Ireland last year could charge faster than 50kW.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    liamog wrote:
    Uhh, the Kona 64kWh, e-Niro, e-Soul can all take more than 70kW and are available today. E-Tron, EQC, I-Pace By the end of the year there will also be the ID.3, eCorsa, e208.

    Market share of Kona, Niro, Soul? About 15%. The other ones are irrelevant, niche expensive cars. What's coming next year is future not present.
    liamog wrote:
    49.6% of BEVs sold new in Ireland last year could charge faster than 50kW.
    Yes - 70kW max. And you are omitting market share of the total fleet :)

    350 or even 150 isn't the new standard. I could perhaps agree with 70kW being the standard but arguably even that is not the case. By my count 70kW capable are 15% of the market (Koreans) and >70kW are like 4% of the market (Teslas). That's 20% or so.

    80% vs 20%


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