“Ireland has a rape culture”

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

Within the context of our conversation; I'm asking you to prove why consent classes are needed. You answered because it helps alleviate discomfort. I merely pointed out it also creates discomfort.

You still need to prove why consent classes are helpful. They clearly aren't.(from my perspective)

Ok. I’ll pick one of the other reasons I mentioned.

Open discussion would create a common language where people would know how to speak about consent. How to give consent, how to receive consent and how to express a change of mind.

Did you know that in Irish law, only a man can stand accused of rape?

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. I’ll pick one of the other reasons I mentioned.

Open discussion would create a common language where people would know how to speak about consent. How to give consent, how to receive consent and how to express a change of mind.

I'm trying to take this point seriously, but is difficult.
Don't we learn how to say yes and no before the age of 2?

Don't we already speak a common language?(English in this case).

You are asserting that grown adults have a problem with asking questions and saying no. This is a soft bigotry of low expectations.

"Bigotry is the attitude of considering a member of another group to be inferior to oneself or one’s identity group. This may be manifested in things like racism, sexism and homophobia.

“Soft” bigotry refers to that bigotry which is not obvious or “in your face.” It’s hidden or implied, rather than openly stated.

The “soft bigotry of low expectations,” therefore, is that resulting instance of bigotry, often unintended, that comes from insisting that a minority group should not be expected to try as hard as the “privileged” group, but should be given some kind of break or administrative priority as a form of compensation for simply being a minority.

The people who insist on granting these benefits to minorities don’t even realize that they are subtly suggesting that the minorities are incapable of achieving on par with the majority group, and thanks to getting these handouts, the minority groups decide that it’s better to accept the charity than to expend the effort to succeed on their own merits, and the majority group accepts this as “fair” by granting these lower expectations."

There are no men's groups advocating for 'consent classes'. Similar to "The Duluth Model" this is a pure abomination; rational people need to start speaking out about it. Criticism of the Duluth Model resembles that of consent classes:

Critics argue that the method can be ineffective as it was developed without minority communities(men) in mind and can fail to address root psychological or emotional causes of abuse(rape), in addition to completely neglecting male victims and female perpetrators of abuse(rape).

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

I'm trying to take this point seriously, but is difficult.
Don't we learn how to say yes and no before the age of 2?

Don't we already speak a common language?(English in this case).

You are asserting that grown adults have a problem with asking questions and saying no. This is a soft bigotry of low expectations.

But earlier you said there are other ways of expressing consent apart from verbally. Now you’re over simplifying it to only verbally. Isn’t it even worth discussing the other ways of expressing consent?

Also (3rd time asking this really simple question) did you know that only a man can stand accused of rape in Ireland?

tjhook

TheW1zard wrote: »

What the hell is rape culture!?

It's an interesting discussion, and one that I've challenged myself on. For comparison, what other "<bad thing> Culture" do we have in this country? The one that comes to mind is Compo Culture. I think that does exist.

Why do I think it exists? For two reasons. Because I believe fake compensation claims are common, and because I think a lot of the people doing it would be quite open about it, at least with their friends. I agree with earlier posts that for it to be a culture, it needs social acceptance, at least among a significant section of the population. This is why I don't think we have a "burglary culture", even though burglary is common.

With this as my frame of reference, I don't believe we have a Rape Culture in this country. Rapes are committed, and the more that are committed, the bigger the problem. But I don't think it can be called a "culture".

Having said all that, people are free to use words as they want. But the risk is that the meanings of those words gets diluted.

nkl12xtw5goz70

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Did you know that in Irish law, only a man can stand accused of rape?

That is incorrect. Section 4 of the Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Act 1990 defines rape as a sexual assault that includes either (a) the penetration of the anus or mouth by the penis or (b) the penetration of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.

Under this somewhat confused definition, a woman could stand accused of raping another woman if she penetrated the victim vaginally with an object.

That said, there is no provision under Irish law for accusing a woman of raping a man. And this does happen. The BBC details a case where a woman handcuffed a man to a bed, force-fed him Viagra, gagged him, and had sex with him without his consent. And yet this is not rape, according to the law.

Lillyfae

tjhook wrote: »

to be a culture, it needs social acceptance, at least among a significant section of the population.

It does among the judiciary- will that be a significant enough section for you?

nthclare

There's a lot of talk about consent etc here.
Which is an important subject.

I like foreplay and lot's of it, kissing, massage, touching, cuddling, roleplay...

Long lingering kissing, and candles, nice scent's etc
Make it as passionate, considerate and hot and horny and intimate as possible
As a guy I'm very sensuous and a giver not a taker, I don't care whether I have sex with someone or not, mutual masterbation is probably the safest way to have sex, reach a climax without any anxiety about STDs and unwanted pregnancy.....
The cuddle after can be the best part.

But if we're on the verge of having sex, I'll ask her "Will I put a condom on ?"

I always play safe.

I think that's an easy way to go about it, because when she says yes there's enough consent there.

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But earlier you said there are other ways of expressing consent apart from verbally. Now you’re over simplifying it to only verbally. Isn’t it even worth discussing the other ways of expressing consent?

Also (3rd time asking this really simple question) did you know that only a man can stand accused of rape in Ireland?

No I didn't know that. I'm using men and women as the most frequent case, and lets be honest; there are no men's groups advocating for consent classes.

Yes we express consent all the time. From the moment we
We ask to go on a date(consent)
We ask to go back to mine(consent)
We ask do you want to stay over(consent)
We ask do you want to go into the bedroom (Consent)
People don't like to specifically ask each other ,"Do you want to have sex"? its a mood killer. It ruins the very act you're trying to accomplish.
Each and every stage people can say no. This does not end in the bedroom either, people are free to say no at anytime and leave.

The idea that people need to be taught this is ridiculous.

Do consent classes alleviate sexual violence in anyway? Or do they just make women 'feel' safer? This is the question.

El_Duderino 09

Amaris Pitiful Pluto wrote: »

That is incorrect. Section 4 of the Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Act 1990 defines rape as a sexual assault that includes either (a) the penetration of the anus or mouth by the penis or (b) the penetration of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.

Under this somewhat confused definition, a woman could stand accused of raping another woman if she penetrated the victim vaginally with an object.

That said, there is no provision under Irish law for accusing a woman of raping a man. And this does happen. The BBC details a case where a woman handcuffed a man to a bed, force-fed him Viagra, gagged him, and had sex with him without his consent. And yet this is not rape, according to the law.

I’ll take your word for it. So woman can’t rape a man but a woman could rape another woman.

It shows a difference between how the word rape is used colloquially and legally. Sexual assault is probably the term that’s more relevant but people almost always say “rape”.

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’ll take your word for it. So woman can’t rape a man but a woman could rape another woman.

It shows a difference between how the word rape is used colloquially and legally. Sexual assault is probably the term that’s more relevant but people almost always say “rape”.

I think it meant if penetration was involved.. hence if that woman had penetrated that man tied to the bed it would have been considered as such.

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

No I didn't know that. I'm using men and women as the most frequent case, and lets be honest; there are no men's groups advocating for consent classes.

Yes we express consent all the time. From the moment we
We ask to go on a date(consent)
We ask to go back to mine(consent)
We ask do you want to stay over(consent)
We ask do you want to go into the bedroom (Consent)
People don't like to specifically ask each other ,"Do you want to have sex"? its a mood killer. It ruins the very act you're trying to accomplish.
Each and every stage people can say no. This does not end in the bedroom either, people are free to say no at anytime and leave.

The idea that people need to be taught this is ridiculous.

Do consent classes alleviate sexual violence in anyway? Or do they just make women 'feel' safer? This is the question.

So you would gain consent for everything leading up to “the act you’re trying to accomplish” but you wouldn’t gain consent for “the act you’re trying to accomplish” in case it would mess with the mood. And even if it makes you personally in comfortable, would you seriously oppose other people discussing it because of that?

Do you see how, at once, childish and prudish that is?

Sexual violence is probably beside the point of consent discussions. Bit like asking if house insurance stops someone burgling the house. Consent discussions would give people the info to stop them unintentionally causing harm to someone else or having harm caused to themselves.

The resistance to discussing consent is beginning to look a bit like embarrassment about discussing sex. Imagine being embarrassed to discuss an aspect of sex with the very person you’re going to have sex with.


Bit this doesn’t really answer my question in the post you quoted. If there are nonverbal ways of expressing consent. Isn’t it worth discussing that with children and teenagers before they end up in those situations?

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So you would gain consent for everything leading up to “the act you’re trying to accomplish” but you wouldn’t gain consent for “the act you’re trying to accomplish” in case it would mess with the mood. And even if it makes you personally in comfortable, would you seriously oppose other people discussing it because of that?

Do you see how, at once, childish and prudish that is?

Jesus christ.. how awfully unfair of you. I only stopped there so as not to go into so much detail. But to detail it further for you.

Go into bedroom:
Start kissing (no one say no: implicit consent)
Start touching each other (no one says no: implicit consent)
Start getting naked(no one says no: implicit consent)
Start stroking each other(no one says no :implicit consent)
Put on a condemn(no one says no:implicit consent)
Start having sex(no one says no:implicit consent)

There are endless opportunities to say no.

Where exactly is it needed to ask , do you want to have sex?

El_Duderino 09

nthclare wrote: »

But if we're on the verge of having sex, I'll ask her "Will I put a condom on ?"

I always play safe.

I think that's an easy way to go about it, because when she says yes there's enough consent there.

Sounds grand. And does it “kill the mood”?

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

Jesus christ.. how awfully unfair of you. I only stopped there so as not to go into so much detail. But to detail it further for you.

Go into bedroom:
Start kissing (no one say no: implicit consent)
Start touching each other (no one says no: implicit consent)
Start stroking each other(no one says no :implicit consent)
Put on a condemn(no one says no:implicit consent)
Start having sex(no one says no:implicit consent)

Where exactly is it needed to ask , do you want to have sex?

So how is someone’s who has never been in a situation like that, supposed to know the rules unless you discuss it with them? That’s what I’m proposing. Discussions this with children and teenagers as part of age appropriate sex, relationships and sexuality education.

Seems perfectly sensible to me. That they know what they’re speaking the same language so they both know what they’re consenting to. I can’t for the life of me see why you’d oppose it even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

tjhook

Lillyfae wrote: »

It does among the judiciary- will that be a significant enough section for you?

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. Rape has a social acceptance among the judiciary?

I don't believe that to be the case. I can't imagine they chat together about the people they've raped. And even if it were, I don't think there are enough judges in the country for there to be a culture.

Veritas Libertas

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So how is someone’s who has never been in a situation like that, supposed to know the rules unless you discuss it with them? That’s what I’m proposing. Discussions this with children and teenagers as part of age appropriate sex, relationships and sexuality education.

Seems perfectly sensible to me. That they know what they’re speaking the same language so they both know what they’re consenting to. I can’t for the life of me see why you’d oppose it even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Because they have at least 18 years of life experience. Simple. Don't apply the soft bigotry of low expectations to groups you're trying to protect. It only damages them in the long run. They learn it when playing with their friends. "Do you want to play a game with me?" "Do you want to go to the dance with me?" etc.. they learn about this their whole lives.

Seems sensible to you; and here I am ready to change my mind if you can prove to me what you know. The only answers you give me are vague rhetoric about 'making it more comfortable' 'it's not about rape' 'it's about learning a common language' without ever explaining this further.

Pragmatically speaking 'consent classes' do nothing except make women 'feel safer'. They do not alleviate sexual violence or rape, and infact many men complain it is a mood killer is completely dismissed by the feminists that are advocating for them. Its a shambolic abomination, just like the Duluth Model.

Can you honestly not see any problems with 'consent classes'?

Wibbs

Lillyfae wrote: »

It does among the judiciary- will that be a significant enough section for you?

Wait... what? There's a social acceptance of rape among the legal profession in Ireland? On what planet is this Ireland?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So how exactly do you indicate consent? Invite someone to your room. Start kidding them and if they don’t say “no/stop” then you’re golden. So tell me this, how does a teenager who has never invited someone to their room, know about these rules if yours?

Also, is that the only way to gain consent?

So what if checking consent killed the mood?

Yes, sex is where the woman is the submissive partner and the man is the aggressor. (Roll eyes)

Reviews and Books Galore

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

Because they have at least 18 years of life experience. Simple. Don't apply the soft bigotry of low expectations to groups you're trying to protect. It only damages them in the long run. They learn it when playing with their friends. "Do you want to play a game with me?" "Do you want to go to the dance with me?" etc.. they learn about this their whole lives.

Seems sensible to you; and here I am ready to change my mind if you can prove to me what you know. The only answers you give me are vague rhetoric about 'making it more comfortable' 'it's not about rape' 'it's about learning a common language' without ever explaining this further.

Pragmatically speaking 'consent classes' do nothing except make women 'feel safer'. They do not alleviate sexual violence or rape, and infact many men complain it is a mood killer is completely dismissed by the feminists that are advocating for them. Its a shambolic abomination, just like the Duluth Model.

Can you honestly not see any problems with 'consent classes'?

The second paragraph is preaching to the choir.

turbot

As far as I can tell - us humans look through the lenses of our own characters and our own experience.

This means - we resolve our experiences in potentially different ways.

For example - if a female has hung out with playful guys - who mess - but ultimately treat her well - if someone else does something edgy - it may feel like a perfectly ok game. But if someone else has been traumatised by prior experience - and experiences that same edgy behaviour - it might remind her "she's not safe". Trauma is a very pesky thing meaning - once a person stops feeling safe in various situations - they may err on the side of caution to judge actually safe situations as risky. The flip side of this is, humans are bad estimators and someone who's used to guys playing who treat her well may under-estimate someone who is legitimately abusive... leading to something never expected.

So when someone says "Ireland has a rape culture" - probably they mean that through the lenses they see the World through, they see signs of risk in lots of places. So probably a better way of understanding this is - many women live with trauma of terrible experiences that have left them feeling unsafe, leading to a kind of hyper-vigilance and uncertainty of safety. The cohort of people who say this and believe it are probably traumatised or at least anxious. Probably 95% of what they perceive as risk isn't an actual risk - but - that 5% accurate risk is so serious any warning signal must be taken seriously.

For sure, Ireland needs to radically upgrade the ability to talk about sex maturely, communicate openly, understand consent proactively and thoroughly and de-risk society more. My sense is this is way harder for older generations than for younger. Most of all, trauma needs to be understood and breakthrough therapies made available so that PTSD / CL-PTSD can be reset.

osarusan

Consent classes (or "discussions", if that sounds better) won't do anything to stop people who know what they are doing is rape.

But, as some threads on boards have shown us, there are significant differences in what many different posters consider rape to actually be, and in some cases, ignorance of what the laws actually says.

I'd guess there are a few people in prison for rape who never dreamed that what they were doing actually constituted rape according to the law.

So I'd have no problem with consent classes or discussions that, if nothing else, highlight what the law actually is regarding consent and capacity to consent and reasonable belief in capacity to consent.

nkl12xtw5goz70

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’ll take your word for it. So woman can’t rape a man but a woman could rape another woman.

It shows a difference between how the word rape is used colloquially and legally. Sexual assault is probably the term that’s more relevant but people almost always say “rape”.

A man can rape a man, a woman can rape a woman (vaginally but not anally, it would seem), and a man can rape a woman. But the law seems written to exclude the possibility of a woman raping a man.

Sexual assault in Ireland is defined in terms of indecent assault — but there is no statutory definition of "indecent assault."

Dr. Bre

If 2 people are hammered drunk and one of them regrets it the next day is it rape?

Veritas Libertas

Dr. Bre wrote: »

If 2 people are hammered drunk and one of them regrets it the next day is it rape?

Only if the person who regrets it is a woman.

Zulu

Dr. Bre wrote: »

If 2 people are hammered drunk and one of them regrets it the next day is it rape?

Thats covered in the advanced consent course.

Lillyfae

tjhook wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. Rape has a social acceptance among the judiciary?

I don't believe that to be the case. I can't imagine they chat together about the people they've raped. And even if it were, I don't think there are enough judges in the country for there to be a culture.

Wibbs wrote: »

Wait... what? There's a social acceptance of rape among the legal profession in Ireland? On what planet is this Ireland?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/rape-victim-asks-court-to-freeze-compensation-award-to-attacker-1.2863243

Handing down a seven year sentence on Monday, Mr Justice Patrick McCarthy said that he had to consider that there might have been no prosecution if not for Hustveit’s confession. “In truth, the case comes here today out of his own mouth,” the judge said, before suspending the entire sentence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46207304

A series of protests over sexual consent have been taking place in Ireland, a week after a man was acquitted of raping a 17-year-old.

In the trial, the defence lawyer told the jury: "You have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front."

JohnMc1

Dr. Bre wrote: »

If 2 people are hammered drunk and one of them regrets it the next day is it rape?

regret =/= rape no matter what the peanut gallery in the Left want to claim.

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

Because they have at least 18 years of life experience. Simple. Don't apply the soft bigotry of low expectations to groups you're trying to protect. It only damages them in the long run. They learn it when playing with their friends. "Do you want to play a game with me?" "Do you want to go to the dance with me?" etc.. they learn about this their whole lives.

Seems sensible to you; and here I am ready to change my mind if you can prove to me what you know. The only answers you give me are vague rhetoric about 'making it more comfortable' 'it's not about rape' 'it's about learning a common language' without ever explaining this further.

Pragmatically speaking 'consent classes' do nothing except make women 'feel safer'. They do not alleviate sexual violence or rape, and infact many men complain it is a mood killer is completely dismissed by the feminists that are advocating for them. Its a shambolic abomination, just like the Duluth Model.

Can you honestly not see any problems with 'consent classes'?

18 years? You think people’s first sexual experiences happen when they’re at least 18? Seriously or are you just saying that for the sake of this discussion? Genuine question.

But even assuming you think people tend to have their first sexual experience at 18, couldn’t you’d apply the same standard to all aspects of sex. “ they’ve had at least 18 years to figure it out so discussing it would only feed into the bigotry of low expectations”. Also a genuine question.

I think the fact that you don’t know how to discuss consent without feeling uncomfortable is demonstration that it would benefit from being normalised.

Wibbs

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/rape-victim-asks-court-to-freeze-compensation-award-to-attacker-1.2863243



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46207304

Brilliant. One case where the accused was acquitted and there was a shi1tstorm abut the barrister's comments. Just like the time the small town small minds bunch of morons shook the hands of a convicted rapist in court, the outrage of the rest of the country descended upon them too. I hate to break it to you, but in an actual rape culture this simply wouldn't happen, but feel free to keep buying into the scaremongering nonsense.

Veritas Libertas

JohnMc1 wrote: »

regret =/= rape no matter what the peanut gallery in the Left want to claim.

Why Women Make False Rape Accusations
And why they think their accusations are true

In this article Megan Hostein details some reasons she thinks why women might tie regret in with rape.

[...]My point is that it’s a woman’s responsibility to assess her own emotions and communicate consent, or lack thereof.

[...]But as women, we really need to stop. We need to tell people what we are thinking. If we feel uncomfortable with an interaction, we need to sack up and tell the person we’re interacting with. Not our friends, not the police, not the Human Relations department, them.

[...]Feminists spend a lot of time talking about how women take on the emotional labor of men (typically in committed relationships), but these situations are that dynamic in reverse. Men on dates or in new relationships are expected to take on the emotional labor of women. They’re expected to know what we are thinking, what we are feeling, whether we want them to make a move or not, all based on subtle cues. Further, they’re expected to know, even when we are not sure of what we are thinking ourselves. The burden of understanding and communicating our emotions is shifted off of us to the men who are trying to date us.