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“Ireland has a rape culture”
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the judge didn't say that the defence lawyer/barrister did - who was a woman btw.
nothing to say the judge took such a comment into consideration or gave it any weight.
somebody said something...and that proves what?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »18 years? You think people’s first sexual experiences happen when they’re at least 18? Seriously or are you just saying that for the sake of this discussion? Genuine question.
But even assuming you think people tend to have their first sexual experience at 18, couldn’t you’d apply the same standard to all aspects of sex. “ they’ve had at least 18 years to figure it out so discussing it would only feed into the bigotry of low expectations”. Also a genuine question.
I think the fact that you don’t know how to discuss consent without feeling uncomfortable is demonstration that it would benefit from being normalised.
Cop yourself on. Consent classes aren't only given to kids.0 -
The first link is about a guy who was serving a 6-year jail sentence for oral rape. I see nothing to indicate that the judiciary promotes rape culture. He was given 6 years.
The second link concerns a case that was well publicised and over which there was rightly a large outcry across the country. A jury decided to acquit, but we don't know how the disgusting comments of the defense lawyer played into that. Again, it doesn't show the judiciary promoting rape culture.0 -
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A jury decided to acquit, but we don't know how the disgusting comments of the defense lawyer played into that. Again, it doesn't show the judiciary promoting rape culture.
I think it more than demonstrates that legal professionals both sides of the bench have little to no concern about getting justice for rape victims. The poster I responded to was looking for a significant section of society that accepts it. Acquittals, suspended sentences, fines etc etc indicate that judges don't rate these crimes gravely enough. And seeing as they are a powerful group then I would also call that significant.
Look, I think it's clear that there are serious problems with metoo and ibelieveher. Harvey Weinstein and the like will never see the inside of a jail cell because alleged victims are reporting to instagram instead of the police. The Belfast rape trial was a circus that stoked anger against the government of many in the Republic even though the court was subject to the jurisdiction of another territory- that is undoubtedly hysteria.
But don't tell me that I don't have an ever present fear since age 12 when lewd comments were shouted at me out a car window as I walked back to my grandmothers house with a bottle of milk. Or that I didn't leave a part time job at the age of 17 because the assistant managers boyfriend used to periodically grope me while I was washing glasses and for the last time at a work night out. Or that I was too afraid to cause a scene when (at a party with my then boyfriend) a man I had never seen or spoken to before put his hand up my dress and into my underwear from behind because I was afraid that because there was alcohol taken things might escalate and that it would be my fault.
The above are just a number (and barely a fraction of the examples I can personally recount) of reasons that historically I would agree that there is a culture of acceptance surrounding rape and sexual assault. I'm sorry if it hurts the feelings of men but there most certainly has been a culture of using derogatory language against women, and of wholly uninvited advances being made which I would wager until recently more than half of men at some point in their lives engaged in. So I think raised awareness about consent and what responsibilities to eachother constitute is no harm.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »That last paragraph seems to be quoting someone other than me. I didn’t say consent is a simple concept that can be taught in less than 10 seconds.
But back to your first paragraph. I think you’re assuming that everyone else has the knowledge that you have. And they don’t. I’d also say that children don’t know everything you now. Children don’t have to be stupid to not know about the law. They also probably have no experience of sexually relationships so that’s why we teach them about those things in advance so they don’t just learn through trial and error.
I don’t know what goes into these consent classes. I didn’t know they did consent passes with primary school children. Do they do those classes?
I do apologise, you said earlier that ensuring consent was really really simple, and I agree with that too. It is simple, only it has never been called consent classes, and consent classes aren’t necessary. Children are taught basic manners and having respect for themselves and other people, and they learn from interactions throughout their lives the same as adults like ourselves have learned throughout our lives.
Did you know it was wrong to disrespect someone? You didn’t need consent classes to learn that, nor did I or anyone else, nor did we all have to take classes in Irish law as it relates to sexual offences. There’s no specialist knowledge required to know how to treat people with respect, and that concept encompasses far more in our interactions with other people than anything specifically related to consent in Irish law as it is taught in consent classes. Children are taught far more than just about consent as it relates to Irish law in their daily lives, as I said not just in school, but also in their interactions with their families and their peers. That’s why specific consent classes simply aren’t necessary, and I haven’t seen an argument yet that makes a convincing case for them.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »Cop yourself on. Consent classes aren't only given to kids.
Ok you seem to have ignored the post you quoted there. Consent classes aren’t only juvenile to kids? Im not even sure they’re given to kids at all at the moment.
Why do I have to keep ask the questions 2/3 times before you answer them. I genuinely try to answer your questions and you seem to keep ignoring the follow up questions as go off on a tangent.
Will you have a go at the questions in the post you quoted?0 -
I think it more than demonstrates that legal professionals both sides of the bench have little to no concern about getting justice for rape victims. The poster I responded to was looking for a significant section of society that accepts it. Acquittals, suspended sentences, fines etc etc indicate that judges don't rate these crimes gravely enough. And seeing as they are a powerful group then I would also call that significant.
Look, I think it's clear that there are serious problems with metoo and ibelieveher. Harvey Weinstein and the like will never see the inside of a jail cell because alleged victims are reporting to instagram instead of the police. The Belfast rape trial was a circus that stoked anger against the government of many in the Republic even though the court was subject to the jurisdiction of another territory- that is undoubtedly hysteria.
But don't tell me that I don't have an ever present fear since age 12 when lewd comments were shouted at me out a car window as I walked back to my grandmothers house with a bottle of milk. Or that I didn't leave a part time job at the age of 17 because the assistant managers boyfriend used to periodically grope me while I was washing glasses and for the last time at a work night out. Or that I was too afraid to cause a scene when (at a party with my then boyfriend) a man I had never seen or spoken to before put his hand up my dress and into my underwear from behind because I was afraid that because there was alcohol taken things might escalate and that it would be my fault.
The above are just a number (and barely a fraction of the examples I can personally recount) of reasons that historically I would agree that there is a culture of acceptance surrounding rape and sexual assault. I'm sorry if it hurts the feelings of men but there most certainly has been a culture of using derogatory language against women, and of wholly uninvited advances being made which I would wager until recently more than half of men at some point in their lives engaged in. So I think raised awareness about consent and what responsibilities to eachother constitute is no harm.
I'm being sincere and saying this with kindness: you need to talk to a therapist about your issues. Your fears and opinions on this topic do not reflect reality and it seems awfully sad you have this false narrative floating around your brain.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Your claim that “no means no” or however you phrased it, is interesting. Is “no” the only way to express non consent? How else is it expressed? How should you express consent? How do you know if someone is expressing consent to you? What should someone do if they previously expressed consent and then change their mind? How long does consent last? ( if someone expressed consent yesterday, does that mean they consent today?)
If you consent to “have sex” with someone, what acts specifically have you consented to? Rough sex? A bit of harmless choking? Is there any need to discuss/check what your partner is actually consenting to?
Have a go at answering those few started questions. (I won’t limit you to the 10 seconds you allotted earlier because they’re actually important questions).
Jesus El_D, you appear to be trying to make this more complicated than it actually is in reality :pac:
This is why teaching children basic manners encompasses how to approach all those questions you have, and many more besides.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I do apologise, you said earlier that ensuring consent was really really simple, and I agree with that too. It is simple, only it has never been called consent classes, and consent classes aren’t necessary. Children are taught basic manners and having respect for themselves and other people, and they learn from interactions throughout their lives the same as adults like ourselves have learned throughout our lives.
Did you know it was wrong to disrespect someone? You didn’t need consent classes to learn that, nor did I or anyone else, nor did we all have to take classes in Irish law as it relates to sexual offences. There’s no specialist knowledge required to know how to treat people with respect, and that concept encompasses far more in our interactions with other people than anything specifically related to consent in Irish law as it is taught in consent classes. Children are taught far more than just about consent as it relates to Irish law in their daily lives, as I said not just in school, but also in their interactions with their families and their peers. That’s why specific consent classes simply aren’t necessary, and I haven’t seen an argument yet that makes a convincing case for them.
I think you’re assuming a lot if you think everyone just knows right from wrong innately. I think it’s something that’s taught through parents, teachers, peers and social norms and becomes obvious over time.
But that’s precisely the point. The whole point of discussing these things is to teach, learn a d grow understanding. But for some reason you’re opposed to talking in relation to a pretty important aspect of human relationships.
If we all relied on the sex education we got from peers as children, we’d have been much worse off. But you don’t want any formal discussion of consents and leave it up to peers to educate them. Bad approach.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Ok you seem to have ignored the post you quoted there. Consent classes aren’t only juvenile to kids? Im not even sure they’re given to kids at all at the moment.
Why do I have to keep ask the questions 2/3 times before you answer them. I genuinely try to answer your questions and you seem to keep ignoring the follow up questions as go off on a tangent.
Will you have a go at the questions in the post you quoted?
The only tangent i'm interested in is why are consent classes needed. To me it seems like you are the one obfuscating. I don't think you or anyone else has made a fair case for this. Every time I question your answers around it, you reply to me with more questions like this one:
This has nothing to do with why consent classes are helpful. Red herrings.You think people’s first sexual experiences happen when they’re at least 18?
Seriously or are you just saying that for the sake of this discussion?
My point was that people learn to say yes and no from the age of 2. To fairly address this concern, you need to supply evidence of the good that consent classes do. Your vague rhetoric of 'common language avoids discomfort' 'its not about rape' doesn't stand up to scrutiny.0 -
Basic banners are great.One eyed Jack wrote: »Jesus El_D, you appear to be trying to make this more complicated than it actually is in reality :pac:
This is why teaching children basic manners encompasses how to approach all those questions you have, and many more besides.
Sex is a bit more complicated than basic manners though.
But I also note that you didn’t even attempt to address the questions you quoted. Attempting to answer them would demonstrate it’s more complicated than “basic manners”.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »The only tangent i'm interested in is why are consent classes needed. To me it seems like you are the one obfuscating. I don't think you or anyone else has made a fair case for this. Every time I question your answers around it, you reply to me with more questions like this one:
This has nothing to do with why consent classes are helpful. Red herrings.
My point was that people learn to say yes and no from the age of 2. To fairly address this concern, you need to supply evidence of the good that consent classes do. Your vague rhetoric of 'common language avoids discomfort' 'its not about rape' doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The 18 year old question was because you answered a question by saying everyone has “at least 18 years experience” to draw on. And that’s obvious guff. Lots of people have their first experience in mid teens and some in early teens.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to teach children about sex, relationships and sexuality. And I see consent as a part of that discussion. I’ve absolutely no understanding of the opposition apart from the fact that it would make you uncomfortable.0 -
I'm being sincere and saying this with kindness: you need to talk to a therapist about your issues. Your fears and opinions on this topic do not reflect reality and it seems awfully sad you have this false narrative floating around your brain.
Ya, I'm mental for thinking that because I was abused and assaulted by men growing up, as were many of my peers, that that makes it somewhat commonplace. Sorry I'll go have myself committed now.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »The 18 year old question was because you answered a question by saying everyone has “at least 18 years experience” to draw on. And that’s obvious guff. Lots of people have their first experience in mid teens and some in early teens.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to teach children about sex, relationships and sexuality. And I see consent as a part of that discussion. I’ve absolutely no understanding of the opposition apart from the fact that it would make you uncomfortable.
Ok what age do you want? Let's pick 12 years old for fear of you accusing me of thinking kids don't have sex. Even 12 year olds know what consent means. They understand they consent to physical contact when they enter games. They understand consent when they ask each other things all the time.
What if a 13 year old who's had a consent class mis understands it?
What if a 13 year old ends up raping a young girl because she first said yes and later changed her mind? What if that 13 year old swore in court, "She said yes" and he genuinely believed this entitled him to do whatever he wanted. Is this not harm that could arise from 'consent classes'?0 -
Ya, I'm mental for thinking that because I was abused and assaulted by men growing up, as were many of my peers, that that makes it somewhat commonplace. Sorry I'll go have myself committed now.
I wouldn't say you're mental nor do I think you need to be committed, but you're definitely thinking about this all wrong and have a very unhealthy, and frankly incorrect, opinion of men and the world.
It's your life, do whatever you want, but I hope you will consider the possibility that you could be happier and a therapist can guide you towards that.0 -
I wouldn't say you're mental nor do I think you need to be committed, but you're definitely thinking about this all wrong and have a very unhealthy, and frankly incorrect, opinion of men and the world.
It's your life, do whatever you want, but I hope you will consider the possibility that you could be happier and a therapist can guide you towards that.
I've seen the light now. Kudos for the mansplaination :rolleyes:.0 -
Hunky Monster wrote: »Here we go again... Ireland’s “rape culture” makes headlines yet again. Hey irish men, could you just stop raping women for five minutes please.
Hashtag mee too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-a-rape-culture-woman-who-was-assaulted-calls-for-more-victim-protection-1.4033034
reading women making such retarded claims when they make general statements to imply all men makes me as annoyed and angry as reading about actual rapists.
What annoys me more is the media who then relay that utter nonsense instead of telling her to cop herself on and think before she opens her trap.
What happened her was awful, but to assume and then try to convince others that theire is a rape culture in order for her to get the attention she badly craves all be it decades later makes me feel less sympathy for her if honest, as bad as that is.0 -
ah yes, how I love to go out on a saturday afternoon to the museum, and visit the rape exhibit.
And then to the theatre to see the rape play - followed by a trip to the cinema to watch the latest rape blockbuster.
All capped off by meeting friends in a bar, to discuss how great rape is and share all our rape stories.0 -
Hector Savage wrote: »ah yes, how I love to go out on a saturday afternoon to the museum, and visit the rape exhibit.
And then to the theatre to see the rape play - followed by a trip to the cinema to watch the latest rape blockbuster.
All capped off by meeting friends in a bar, to discuss how great rape is and share all our rape stories.
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Veritas Libertas wrote: »Ok what age do you want? Let's pick 12 years old for fear of you accusing me of thinking kids don't have sex. Even 12 year olds know what consent means. They understand they consent to physical contact when they enter games. They understand consent when they ask each other things all the time.
What if a 13 year old who's had a consent class mis understands it?
What if a 13 year old ends up raping a young girl because she first said yes and later changed her mind? What if that 13 year old swore in court, "She said yes" and he genuinely believed this entitled him to do whatever he wanted. Is this not harm that could arise from 'consent classes'?
You know, the latter paragraph is interesting and a possible possibility.
It could be possible that the next round of hysteria could be 'consent classes are giving men carte Blanche to do what they want and take yes' or ' girls are being pushed into consent'.
Realistically, if somebody's going to falsely accuse you, theyres nothing you could do about it as the person could literally say they felt afraid to say no.0 -
Veritas Libertas wrote: »Ok what age do you want? Let's pick 12 years old for fear of you accusing me of thinking kids don't have sex. Even 12 year olds know what consent means. They understand they consent to physical contact when they enter games. They understand consent when they ask each other things all the time.
What if a 13 year old who's had a consent class mis understands it?
What if a 13 year old ends up raping a young girl because she first said yes and later changed her mind? What if that 13 year old swore in court, "She said yes" and he genuinely believed this entitled him to do whatever he wanted. Is this not harm that could arise from 'consent classes'?
Just to confirm, You think 13 year olds understand the concept of sexual consent? And talking to them about consent carries a greater risk of confusing their 13 year’s old understanding, than correcting any misunderstanding?
If you think 13 year olds understand sexual consent then you’re bonkers. But I think your whole argument is based on the idea that everyone already knows all about consent to begin with. I think you’re wrong on that. That’s why we do things like sex and relationships education in the first place.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I think you’re assuming a lot if you think everyone just knows right from wrong innately. I think it’s something that’s taught through parents, teachers, peers and social norms and becomes obvious over time.
But that’s precisely the point. The whole point of discussing these things is to teach, learn a d grow understanding. But for some reason you’re opposed to talking in relation to a pretty important aspect of human relationships.
If we all relied on the sex education we got from peers as children, we’d have been much worse off. But you don’t want any formal discussion of consents and leave it up to peers to educate them. Bad approach.
I’m not opposed to talking in relation to any aspect of human relationships. I’m here listening aren’t I, waiting to hear a convincing argument from you as to the necessity of consent classes as distinct from knowing how to treat people with basic manners. It’s through basic manners that I learned to give someone a fair hearing if I think they’re making a genuine effort to explain something to me that I’m just not getting. I’m interested in hearing a convincing case as to why you believe consent classes are necessary as distinct from teaching children basic manners.
You say it’s a bad approach to leave it up to their peers to educate them, but that’s surely the best approach as it’s more likely people will be engaging with their peers and learning from each other what are each other’s opinions on a broad range of topics as opposed to just one single topic.
You say that if we all relied on the sex education we got from our peers, we’d have been much worse off. You appear to be attempting to justify a need for consent classes on the basis that we’re in a bad place already. I didn’t take you for a pessimist before now, but maybe that’s where we differ? I have more faith in people than you do that everyone knows how to treat people with respect already.El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Basic banners are great.
Sex is a bit more complicated than basic manners though.
But I also note that you didn’t even attempt to address the questions you quoted. Attempting to answer them would demonstrate it’s more complicated than “basic manners”.
I didn’t see a point in answering each of your questions specifically, because it genuinely does appear to me that you’re attempting to make something more complicated out of something that I don’t see as complicated at all. You say that sex is a bit more complicated than basic manners, and I don’t know what you mean by that because basic manners is the foundation of how we interact with each other, and sex is a relatively small part of how people interact with one another when you begin to consider all the many ways in which people interact with one another. You listed some of them in a previous post expecting I should answer each question specifically, but I don’t see a point in answering each question specifically as that could go on to infinity given the infinite number of ways in which people interact with one another.
It’s important IMO for people to learn basic manners, because that’s the basis upon which they will learn how to have discussions about any topic among their peers, not just sex or Irish law, in a civil, respectful and responsible manner. Based upon that approach, I don’t see the necessity of consent classes.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I’m not opposed to talking in relation to any aspect of human relationships. I’m here listening aren’t I, waiting to hear a convincing argument from you as to the necessity of consent classes as distinct from knowing how to treat people with basic manners. It’s through basic manners that I learned to give someone a fair hearing if I think they’re making a genuine effort to explain something to me that I’m just not getting. I’m interested in hearing a convincing case as to why you believe consent classes are necessary as distinct from teaching children basic manners.
You say it’s a bad approach to leave it up to their peers to educate them, but that’s surely the best approach as it’s more likely people will be engaging with their peers and learning from each other what are each other’s opinions on a broad range of topics as opposed to just one single topic.
You say that if we all relied on the sex education we got from our peers, we’d have been much worse off. You appear to be attempting to justify a need for consent classes on the basis that we’re in a bad place already. I didn’t take you for a pessimist before now, but maybe that’s where we differ? I have more faith in people than you do that everyone knows how to treat people with respect already.
I didn’t see a point in answering each of your questions specifically, because it genuinely does appear to me that you’re attempting to make something more complicated out of something that I don’t see as complicated at all. You say that sex is a bit more complicated than basic manners, and I don’t know what you mean by that because basic manners is the foundation of how we interact with each other, and sex is a relatively small part of how people interact with one another when you begin to consider all the many ways in which people interact with one another. You listed some of them in a previous post expecting I should answer each question specifically, but I don’t see a point in answering each question specifically as that could go on to infinity given the infinite number of ways in which people interact with one another.
It’s important IMO for people to learn basic manners, because that’s the basis upon which they will learn how to have discussions about any topic among their peers, not just sex or Irish law, in a civil, respectful and responsible manner. Based upon that approach, I don’t see the necessity of consent classes.
Do would you replace all sex, relationship etc. education with basic manners education?
I don’t believe for a second that the best way to learn about sex is from your mates out the back of the bike shed. It’s a terrible way to get accurate information. There’s no way you actually think that’s a better way to learn accurate info about sex than actually discussing it with an adult. Are you being serious st all?0 -
I've seen the light now. Kudos for the mansplaination :rolleyes:.
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Do would you replace all sex, relationship etc. education with basic manners education?
I don’t believe for a second that the best way to learn about sex is from your mates out the back of the bike shed. It’s a Teri is way to get accurate information. There’s no way you actually think that’s a better way to learn accurate info about sex than actually discussing it with an adult. Are you being serious st all?
I’m being serious El_D. The best way for people to learn about sex is from the people who they are interested in having sex with.
Education in basic manners is already practiced, and where parents consent, their children are permitted to participate in relationships and sex education in school. Nobody is replacing education in basic manners with education in relationships and sex education, it’s offered to parents as an option to which they can either give their consent or not.
If you really want the most accurate information as to how someone feels about anything, then surely you go to the source which is the individual or individuals as opposed to getting it second hand from someone teaching about it from their perspective as though their opinions are representative of the infinite experiences and perceptions of people who aren’t them. That’s where as much as I know you don’t like the idea - people learn from their experiences based upon trial and error based upon judgment formed of their lived experiences as opposed to hypothetical circumstances they may never experience and elevating those circumstances to the point where they impact in a negative way upon their relationships with other people by assuming the worst of other people.0 -
Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »Women aren't as regulating of foreign men's behaviour. You know, a sleazy Spanish man hasn't seen the same way as a sleazy Irish man.I think one of the largest evils of the world is that normal male behaviour is tied into rape.In anglo saxon cultures (perhaps all catholic cultures) there does seem to be the notion that all men have the possibility to be rapists. So they should be blocked form porn, short dresses, or the new Joker film.
I think this does go without saying tbh.
I am still waiting for you to clarify the fisher price statements above.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Just to confirm, You think 13 year olds understand the concept of sexual consent? And talking to them about consent carries a greater risk of confusing their 13 year’s old understanding, than correcting any misunderstanding?
If you think 13 year olds understand sexual consent then you’re bonkers. But I think your whole argument is based on the idea that everyone already knows all about consent to begin with. I think you’re wrong on that. That’s why we do things like sex and relationships education in the first place.
Remember the context here I keep having to keep this on topic, you keep flagrantly throwing it off.
I was asking you to supply evidence why consent classes are a good thing. Every time you propose it, I challenge it with questions.
Then you answer my questions with questions that insinuate I'm the bad guy in some way. Every time attacking me. I'm done with this, if you can't explain your position to someone willing to change their mind, then maybe you might need to retake a look at your position.0 -
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I'm "mansplaining"?
It all makes sense now. You're simply a sexist.
Yes, I've told you based on my experience (which is not unusual experience) why I think society has work to do in terms of protecting women, and you have dismissed my experience as my problem. I am in no way to blame for the things that have happened to me, and I am not sexist. There have been historic lenient sentences for the perpetrators of sexual assault. Most if not all women have been subject to some form of harassment/ assault of a sexual nature at some point in their lives, making rational desicions to modify their behaviour because of it. This doesn't make me hate men.
I am not arguing for consent classes either. Teaching consent even sounds weird because what we're really talking about is how to both consent and deny and to learn to read consent or denial depending on the situation. I think it should be discussed in an open forum, or even a closed one such as this. I think this could happen in secondary schools during sexual education or cspe, should be used as material for debating societies etc etc. It just needs to be discussed because everyone's experience is subjective- and we need to listen to other people's views.0
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