Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All complete bs.

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

We are all trapped in the EU because if we leave these terrible things will happen to us?

??? I said nothing of the sort.

If riots are triggered by these disruptions, disruptions which the UK Government themselves have predicted (even though they lied about it and tried to hide the predictions), it will be because the UK will already have left the EU, not because no-one can leave.

And if the Theresa May had reached across to Labour and agreed a Norway style Brexit after the Referendum instead of drawing a bunch of Hard Brexit xenophobic Red Lines, they'd be out already and people would hardly notice except that Farage would be out of work.

Wanderer78

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

It really is a hotel california situation

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

We will go back to sovereignty over our affairs and the EU will be the much looser economic community we first joined. Transitioning from the euro will be difficult but Ireland is pretty well placed as is Germany. Other countries it will hit them a little harder but they'll survive. We all move on.

Detangaling euro denominated debts would be interesting, it would hardly lead to massive capital flight, would it? What then? It takes the bones of a year to create a functioning currency system, well placed!

hotmail.com

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Since Britain is in Europe, I am not sure what anti-European sentiment would even mean.

Then perhaps research it. There are plenty of lectures on youtube explaining the long history of anti European feeling in Britain.

And Britain may be part of Europe but it is not part of the continent.

hotmail.com

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No. Someday there will be a sworn inquiry into this and folks will be named and shamed. Brexit will stick to them like Iraq sticks to Blair.

No one even talks about this anymore?

Shelga

It’s a single-issue election, so why don’t they just have a referendum? Oh yeah, because Johnson needs an election.

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All complete bs.

So you are saying the UK is trapped in the EU?

We are all trapped in the EU because if we leave these terrible things will happen to us?

The UK will leave. The EU will last a few years longer but I think ultimately it is a failed experiment.

We will go back to sovereignty over our affairs and the EU will be the much looser economic community we first joined. Transitioning from the euro will be difficult but Ireland is pretty well placed as is Germany. Other countries it will hit them a little harder but they'll survive. We all move on.

That is for the best - the alternative does not bear thinking about.

You hate the EU and have done for a number of years. I think you'll have to certainly agree your viewpoint is somewhat tainted . And in my opinion irrational for the most part on any subject related to the EU in so far as you bring up conspiracy theories long since debunked for Ireland's own membership

listermint

hotmail.com wrote: »

Then perhaps research it. There are plenty of lectures on youtube explaining the long history of anti European feeling in Britain.

And Britain may be part of Europe but it is not part of the continent.

Lectures... Or generic YouTube nonsense for which there is days of video based crap

devnull

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Now, if Brexit goes ahead, that will be different. Food shortages are exactly the sort of thing that triggers riots. Mass factory closures. Fuel rationing. Avoidable deaths in hospitals.

There's already a shortage of Ibuprofen which pharmacies in the UK are claiming is due to large stockpiling ahead of a no deal Brexit. I had to go to 8 shops yesterday to find any and even then it was overpriced Nurofen or nothing.

According to a local pharmacist close to where I work when I'm in the UK, the pharma companies have seen a massive hike in demand that they are unable to keep up with. Apparently the biggest demand they've ever seen.

Strazdas

Shelga wrote: »

It’s a single-issue election, so why don’t they just have a referendum? Oh yeah, because Johnson needs an election.

The extreme resistance to a referendum of any description suggests Leave voters and the right wing press fear it would be lost.

A GE is more attractive as they feel Johnson can bluff and bluster his way through with "Let's get Brexit done" and other meaningless soundbites.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh dear god. Move on.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

This is great television.

Enough of this please.

Danzy

Strazdas wrote: »

The extreme resistance to a referendum of any description suggests Leave voters and the right wing press fear it would be lost.

A GE is more attractive as they feel Johnson can bluff and bluster his way through with "Let's get Brexit done" and other meaningless soundbites.

The problem with a referendum is the dragging out of this.

There already was one.

Why would anyone want this to go on.

hotmail.com

listermint wrote: »

Lectures... Or generic YouTube nonsense for which there is days of video based crap

Wait, do people dispute the anti European Union/ anti Europe feeling in Britain - it's all a myth?

Danzy

hotmail.com wrote: »

Wait, do people dispute the anti European Union/ anti Europe feeling in Britain - it's all a myth?

History book sales in decline for years.

hotmail.com

murphaph wrote: »

Then why did the electorate vote to join (stay in) the EEC in 1972? If the UK was anti Europe going back centuries as you contend, this would not have been the case. You're talking rubbish.

It was in 1975. Had the referendum been held before entry, many think it wouldn't have passed. The referendum of 1975 passed for a variety of reasons. It doesn't undermine the point that Britons have always been luke warm and sometimes outright anti European in their attitude.

This is part of the reason why the Leave side won in 2016.

Joe_ Public

Interesting point made by Heidi Allen just now. One reason PM could be so keen on dec 12th election date is the university vote would not be as big.

This is crucial. Had to check and she is indeed correct that term time ends on dec 9th so students would be on holiday and less likely to cast vote. Johnson's own constituency is a big university one where his Labour rival is a recent graduate so easy to see why it might be very much in their thinking.

robinph

Danzy wrote: »

The problem with a referendum is the dragging out of this.

There already was one.

Why would anyone want this to go on.

So probably would have been a good idea a year ago then when the deal first started to emerge?

After three years and leave still can't agree on what they want, other than not remain, I don't see how dragging things out for an extra couple of months to aks the population again if this deal is really what they want could be considered a bad thing. It would be democratic after all.

Zubeneschamali

hotmail.com wrote: »

No one even talks about this anymore?

Iraq?

Here on Earth 1, people bring it up every time Tony Blair opens his blood-stained mouth.

Danzy

robinph wrote: »

So probably would have been a good idea a year ago then when the deal first started to emerge?

After three years and leave still can't agree on what they want, other than not remain, I don't see how dragging things out for an extra couple of months to aks the population again if this deal is really what they want could be considered a bad thing. It would be democratic after all.

It wouldn't be for a few months, it could be years more uncertainty. It is not certain the Ref would change the result.

It is the only deal they'll get.

Why would the EU want or honour a referendum in Britain. Just unwind years of preparation.

Another referendum is their worst nightmare.

Hurrache

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Interesting point made by Heidi Allen just now. One reason PM could be so keen on dec 12th election date is the university vote would not be as big.

This is crucial. Had to check and she is indeed correct that term time ends on dec 9th so students would be on holiday and less likely to cast vote. Johnson's own constituency is a big university one where his Labour rival is a recent graduate so easy to see why it might be very much in their thinking.

But the thing is he can't set the date as the 12th of December.

robinph

Danzy wrote: »

It wouldn't be for a few months, it could be years more uncertainty.

It is the only deal they'll get.

Why would the EU want that?

Another referendum is their worst nightmare.

Why would it be for years more?

Leave have finally presented their proposal for what leave means, run the referendum, count the votes, if leave wins then leave the following month.

Zubeneschamali

Danzy wrote: »

Why would anyone want this to go on.

If Brexit happens, it will destabilize the North after 20 years of peace.

If Brexit happens, it will hit me (and you!) right in our wallets.

If Brexit happens, it will weaken the EU, just when we need the EU to stand up against Russia in security terms, and the US and China in trade terms.

So, I want this to go on until the UK sees sense and revokes A50, and agrees to never say the word Brexit again.

Joe_ Public

Hurrache wrote: »

But the thing is he can't set the date as the 12th of December.

True. But it helps explain why he's so keen on that date or, merely, an early election as possible, as it counts out people who havent registered soon enough. We know from various reports that huge numbers of young people have been joining the electoral register.

https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-brexit-general-election-why-the-tories-fear-the-student-vote/

Zubeneschamali

Danzy wrote: »

It wouldn't be for a few months, it could be years more uncertainty.

Uncertainty is not always the worst thing.

If you are hopping on one foot at the edge of a cliff, there is uncertainty about whether you will fall off. This is bad.

Jumping off to end the uncertainty is worse.

Purgative

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Uncertainty is not always the worst thing.

If you are hopping on one foot at the edge of a cliff, there is uncertainty about whether you will fall off. This is bad.

Jumping off to end the uncertainty is worse.

Hurrah we've hit the iceberg. Now we can get on with the business of sinking.

ancapailldorcha

Danzy wrote: »

It wouldn't be for a few months, it could be years more uncertainty. It is not certain the Ref would change the result.

It is the only deal they'll get.

Why would the EU want or honour a referendum in Britain. Just unwind years of preparation.

Another referendum is their worst nightmare.

Another referendum will at the very least legitimise the leave result. It also means we can end this nonsense instead of pretending that signing the deal is anything other than a protraction of it.

The EU does not want to shrink. It wants the deal but it wants Britain to stay even more. The EU's leaders have never been anything short of conciliatory when discussing Brexit. They will act in the best interests of the project and the departure of a major power in securities and services is in nobody’s interest, least of all that of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

The deal means we will just be back to this same point next year with another Benn act compelling the government of the day to seek an extension to the transition period which the EU will grant every single time because the UK will be completely neutralised as a threat as it will have lost its many privileges as an EU member, mainly its veto.

A referendum means politicians can either drop this or push for a hard Brexit as soon as possible with a mandate from the public.

eagle eye

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Another referendum will at the very least legitimise the leave result. It also means we can end this nonsense instead of pretending that signing the deal is anything other than a protraction of it.

No need for another referendum. Their European elections result tells us that.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

The EU does not want to shrink. It wants the deal but it wants Britain to stay even more. The EU's leaders have never been anything short of conciliatory when discussing Brexit. They will act in the best interests of the project and the departure of a major power in securities and services is in nobody’s interest, least of all that of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Yes its a horrible situation especially for us in the Republic and those in NI. It's not good for Europe as a whole either.
I'd love to see a change of heart in the UK but I don't see it happening anytime soon sadly.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

The deal means we will just be back to this same point next year with another Benn act compelling the government of the day to seek an extension to the transition period which the EU will grant every single time because the UK will be completely neutralised as a threat as it will have lost its many privileges as an EU member, mainly its veto.

I don't see any way this lasts another year. I think we'll see an exit sooner than that and the break up of the UK will flow pretty quickly.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

A referendum means politicians can either drop this or push for a hard Brexit as soon as possible with a mandate from the public.

No, another referendum is pointless. I realise people like to hold out hope that the Brits will change their mind but that's not happening anytime soon. I think the best case is to let it happen now, watch as Scotland first and then NI leave the UK and at some stage in the next ten years they'll all be back in the EU.

hotmail.com

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Iraq?

Here on Earth 1, people bring it up every time Tony Blair opens his blood-stained mouth.

I was replying to the campaign stuff not Iraq. Please read more carefully.

Joe_ Public

eagle eye wrote: »

No need for another referendum. Their European elections result tell us that.

I can agree there are some arguments against a second vote but this is hardly one of them. An angry cohort of the population voting in an election they wouldn't normally bother with might tell you some things, but not what you suggest i think. What was the turnout? 30 percent was it, or thereabouts?

robinph

eagle eye wrote: »

No need for another referendum. Their European elections result tells us that.

What did the EU elections tell us exactly, other than both sides claimed the results showed more support for their vision depending on how you pulled apart the numbers?

Zubeneschamali

hotmail.com wrote: »

I was replying to the campaign stuff not Iraq.

Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit