Girls don't cycle! Guess whos fault it is?

NewClareman

seamus wrote: »

Women: “the ones who do cycle say verbal harassment from boys and men is a top deterrent”

This thread: "No, that can't be it! Let's not listen to actual experience, let's just whine about an anti-man agenda"

Why is it so difficult for some people to accept it when women en masse tell you that they experience harrassment from men on an daily basis? Why do you automatically assume that they're lying and engaging in an attack on men?

"I don't see it, so it mustn't happen" - is that it? Is it just self-centeredness?

I’m not convinced that the negative commentators “automatically assume that they're lying”. Anyone, male or female, who’s socially active knows full well that it goes on. There is a sense of entitlement with some men, that they have a right to treat women exactly as the please. Pathetic!!!

Earthhorse

Earthhorse wrote: »

If the situation continues, I agree. If the situation happens intermittently that's different.



Okay, then we teach young women those coping skills.

I am intermittently harassed (as as most women runners I know) when I'm out running alone. It doesn't stop me. I was also harassed at the pool, but I still swim daily. Most of us cope just fine as adults.

We need to teach everyone those skills. Expecting a 13 year old to have honed those skills is unrealistic, and of course all kids are different. If a child can't cope with adult harassment, male or female, it's not something lacking in them or their fault they're upset because they're not resilient enough.

Earthhorse

Candie wrote: »

We need to teach everyone those skills.

Right, like we need to teach everyone not to harass other people?

Expecting a 13 year old to have honed those skills is unrealistic, and of course all kids are different.

I don't have that expectation.

If a child can't cope with adult harassment, male or female, it's not something lacking in them or their fault they're upset because they're not resilient enough.

I don't blame the child. In fact, I'm trying to suggest we help them.

Chips Lovell

Research suggests helmets probably do help mitigate injuries in some circumstances.

However, your chance of sustaining a serious head injury while cycling is quite low.

Alcohol is a factor in far more head injuries than cycling.

If you're serious about reducing head injuries, you should be lobbying for mandatory drinking helmets first.

NewClareman

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

It's perfectly normal to make comments about the opposite sex. I'm not saying to shout it at the woman, but the disgusted face aspect seems puritan to me.

It depends on what those comments are. Comments that deliberately demean women say more about the perpetrator than their target. The disgusted face is an excellent suggestion.

NewClareman

NewClareman wrote: »

I’m not convinced that the negative commentators “automatically assume that they're lying”. Anyone, male or female, who’s socially active knows full well that it goes on. There is a sense of entitlement with some men, that they have a right to treat women exactly as the please. Pathetic!!!

its probably more that any and all perceived problems stated by a woman (edit: in an article like this for clickbait, not in general i mean) are amplified and boosted without an awful lot in the way of fair or reasonable critical analysis.

let alone questioned (as a poster has done quite well and fairly in this thread only to be attacked) subjectively- did this really affect you the rest of your day? while acknowledging it happens and ideally would be addressed if we could as a society, would you have been better off ignoring it or brushing it off? its treated as appalling to even ask, jesus its the best advice youd ever get about this world- theres a minority of arseholes, learn to ignore them or theyll be delighted, get on with your day and youll be the better for it

and negative behaviours that can be attributed to a small minority of men are treated as endemic across the population

any problems prevalent amongst or also impacting upon men are minimised or erased.

youll always have the likes of seamus furiously overreacting to people who want to have a discussion about these things. i dont know what those people object to so much in a discussion, but if the alternative is having articles like this accepted as the only truth available on any given topic, well yknow there's going to be kickback to that. its an idiotic article with a deliberately provocative take.

CrankyHaus

While harrassment of women by men is unacceptable and still unacceptably frequent is there any credible evidence for the journalist's assertion that this is what dissuades female cyclists?

My sister cycles. Her troubles were taxis knocking her off her bicycle and then burning off or passing dangerously close at speed. She never mentioned any catcalls.
My GF never mentioned any catcalls either. Not did any woman I know.

With respect to Candie it's my understanding that her childhood was in a different country and at a different time, when casual sexism was more common and more tolerated. I'm prepared to believe it's still prevalent here in Ireland but I wouldn't mind seeing real evidence that it's the reason for less female cyclists instead of some lazy hack's trolling assertion.

randd1

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I'd go further and take Julie bindels recommendation, "men should be placed in camps "

That could never happen.

First off, who would build them? I don't see too many ladies on the building sites.

Secondly, even if they did build them, the ladies wouldn't be able to police them, purely because if they tried to all the men would have to do is tell every second on one of them that the lady across the way said she looked fat in her clothes, and let them tear each other apart.

suicide_circus

inforfun wrote: »

But also noticing the efforts a lot of the girls went through to get out of PE, which we had 3x a week in those days, i think i can guess why a lot of them preferred the bus over cycling.

i also attended a mixed secondary school with PE being segregated. Big issues with girls participating in PE in my school and this seems to remain an issue. Hard to believe that this is unrelated to the cycling issue and hard to lay the blame for this at the feet of cat calls or leering pervs.

PhilOssophy

Deleted User wrote: »

Go to Denmark or Holland, countries comparable to Ireland. Huge numbers of men and women cycle to get about, without the need to dress up in helmets and hi vis. And their roads are safer than ours.

Never read such BS. Nobody makes anybody wear high-vis or helmets (the legal requirement is for a front light and back light). They are the individual choice. To claim that they are an obstruction to cycling is bull.

The real problems are
1. The attitude towards cyclists (as a commuting cyclist myself, I can attest to this) from other road users.
2. The behaviour of cyclists (running red lights, cycling on the footpath, etc) - a massive barrier to better cycling facilities is the general attitude of some cyclists to the rules of the road. People talk about Denmark and Holland - they don't go on with the crap cyclists here do.
3. Poor cycling facilities around schools.
4. Poor driver behaviour in and around schools (parking everywhere, doors flying open, etc).

Reviews and Books Galore

NewClareman wrote: »

It depends on what those comments are. Comments that deliberately demean women say more about the perpetrator than their target. The disgusted face is an excellent suggestion.

Sex isn't demeaning. It's perfectly natural animal activity and doesn't demean the person involved and there is nothing disgusting about sex.

Wibbs

Chips Lovell wrote: »

If you're serious about reducing head injuries, you should be lobbying for mandatory drinking helmets first.

Works for me!

padd b1975

Maybe things would improve if they learned how to go side-saddle?

Seth Brundle

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Taking the lane is now recommended by the Road Safety Authority and is now in the Rules of the Road.
It is safer than allowing cars to squeeze past you on busy roads.

And groups of cyclists take it to extremes.
I am a cyclist and am appalled by the attitude of some cyclists, mainly club cyclists, or training groups.

"Take it to extremes" doing what exactly?
As someone who cycles frequently both alone and with a group, I don't recall seeing it taken to the extreme!

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

With respect to Candie it's my understanding that her childhood was in a different country and at a different time, when casual sexism was more common and more tolerated. I'm prepared to believe it's still prevalent here in Ireland but I wouldn't mind seeing real evidence that it's the reason for less female cyclists instead of some lazy hack's trolling assertion.

I'm 32, it was a fair while ago (I was 13) and in England but I meet harassment more often than I'd like if I'm out running alone and it's not a huge cultural gap, if any at all.

I've never seen anyone beaten up, m partner was never beaten up, my brother was never beaten up, I don't know man who was just beaten up on a night out. Does that mean it doesn't happen or it's a rare event? Course not.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

"Take it to extremes" doing what exactly?
As someone who cycles frequently both alone and with a group, I don't recall seeing it taken to the extreme!

theres a decent balance between taking the road and acknowledging that you are travelling significantly slower than other traffic

i was up the sally gap recently and obviously it was busy with groups

everyone took the road, and 95% ceded when safe to allow me by. for my part, i stayed back and respected them on the road until safe to go by.

there was the 5% that stayed out in the way regardless, just as there'll be a minority of motorists who dont respect the cyclists safety

doesnt do any good to get het up or deny that the minority exist tho

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

Not going to get into the battle of the sexes thing but this is more evidence that insisting on safety gear reduces the number of cyclists and effectively makes the streets more dangerous for everyone.

Go to Denmark or Holland, countries comparable to Ireland. Huge numbers of men and women cycle to get about, without the need to dress up in helmets and hi vis. And their roads are safer than ours.

Cycling should be seen as natural, normal and practical and something you do in the same clothes you walk about in.

Doesn’t Holland have an excellent, contiguous cycle lane network though?

Anyhoo, can’t say I ever felt singled out as a female cyclist. The odd time stopped at lights, I’d have a conversation or flirt with a driver but that’s it. And I always enjoyed that.

Salary Negotiator

cnocbui wrote: »

I rode a bicycle for at least a decade prior to the introduction of mandatory helmets in Australia. I know my anecdotal observations are completely worthless, as I would have only seen several thousand cyclists in that time, a tiny fraction of the total, but by some astonishing statistical fluke, I managed to see no cyclists wearing helmets; I know I certainly didn't. But yeah, you are right, I must have been cycling for a decade, blissfully unaware of the astonishing statistical anomaly bubble that accompanied me everywhere I went.

Playing devils advocate runs the risk of a bit of rub-off.

I'm just explaining why you are wrong to make the claim that serious head injuries in Australia fell by 70% as a result of making it mandatory to wear a helmet.

It's not devils advocate to point out your error, however well intended that error may be.

randd1

Deleted User wrote: »

Go to Denmark or Holland, countries comparable to Ireland. Huge numbers of men and women cycle to get about, without the need to dress up in helmets and hi vis. And their roads are safer than ours.

They're not comparable though.

They're smaller countries with bigger populations (Holland has 17m living in an area the size of Munster, Denmark has 6m in not too much bigger, but a lot of small islands). Space isn't a luxury in them, so they have to plan to use the space as effectively as possible. Their cities have an awful lot of apartment blocks and great public transport systems. So cycling makes sense as a mode of transport, and so is encouraged and planned for.

Compared to here where every few years they build a housing estate at the edge of town because it's where we have the space, usually on a crap road. But those miles from town add up. Throw in the crap weather and ****e roads and it basically screams get a car.

Diemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

theres a decent balance between taking the road and acknowledging that you are travelling significantly slower than other traffic

i was up the sally gap recently and obviously it was busy with groups

everyone took the road, and 95% ceded when safe to allow me by. for my part, i stayed back and respected them on the road until safe to go by.

there was the 5% that stayed out in the way regardless, just as there'll be a minority of motorists who dont respect the cyclists safety

doesnt do any good to get het up or deny that the minority exist tho

The difference between the 2 groups of extremists is that the motorised group can kill. So just because there are ar$es in every mode doesnot mean they should be equal.

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

theres a decent balance between taking the road and acknowledging that you are travelling significantly slower than other traffic

i was up the sally gap recently and obviously it was busy with groups

everyone took the road, and 95% ceded when safe to allow me by. for my part, i stayed back and respected them on the road until safe to go by.

there was the 5% that stayed out in the way regardless, just as there'll be a minority of motorists who dont respect the cyclists safety

doesnt do any good to get het up or deny that the minority exist tho

There is no obligation on a cyclist to let a motorist pass.
If it is not safe for the motorist to pass then the cyclist is perfectly right for not letting the driver pass.
If you could not pass the cyclists, then it was not safe! They do not have to move out of your way!

Diemos

seamus wrote: »

Women: “the ones who do cycle say verbal harassment from boys and men is a top deterrent”

This thread: "No, that can't be it! Let's not listen to actual experience, let's just whine about an anti-man agenda"

Why is it so difficult for some people to accept it when women en masse tell you that they experience harrassment from men on an daily basis? Why do you automatically assume that they're lying and engaging in an attack on men?

"I don't see it, so it mustn't happen" - is that it? Is it just self-centeredness?

That's not the responses I have read. But I'm not playing for likes.

No one has denied that there are knuckle draggers out there who are creeps. But to say that men/boys are the reason a lower proportion of lady cyclists is cheap lazy journalism and calling it out for the tripe it is does not mean that you are denying the existence of these scumbags.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There is no obligation on a cyclist to let a motorist pass.
If it is not safe for the motorist to pass then the cyclist is perfectly right for not letting the driver pass.
If you could not pass the cyclists, then it was not safe! They do not have to move out of your way!

didnt read a word of the post, did you?

lainey_d_123

Candie wrote: »

It would be nice if I could go for a run alone on the streets without cars slowing down so people can give their opinion me.

It would have been nice, as a schoolgirl, if grown adults hadn't made lewd comments about my school uniform on me. It would also have been nice as a young teenager, if a person hadn't put his hand out of his car window to slap me on the backside when I was on a bike at traffic lights. I never used the bike again, because I didn't know how to deal with those situations - because I was a kid and it didn't feel safe anymore to me. I was tiny too, when I was 13 I looked about ten. I didn't care about helmet hair.

These things put girls off doing things, because kids aren't really equipped to see off intimidating adults.

Very few people do these things, but they have a huge affect on how comfortable and safe girls feel.

Don't waste your time typing this. We all know what it's like to be a woman and feel unsafe jogging, cycling or even walking in public due to cat calls, leering and even verbal abuse, but the men on here refuse to accept that any of this happens and would prefer to call women liars and drama queens than to actually recognise that this happens, and far more frequently than they realise.

Must be nice to live in a world where you think things don't happen because you've never personally seen them happen.

Diemos

Diemos wrote: »

The difference between the 2 groups of extremists is that the motorised group can kill. So just because there are ar$es in every mode doesnot mean they should be equal.

really amnt interested in making this another kneejerk cyclist warrior thread tbh. but nobody said there was no difference, nobody said they were equal, it was literally a response to a poster acting befuddled that there could ever be such a thing as cyclists "taking the road" to extremes

golly its like ye are looking for an excuse to go off on one on behalf of cyclists, even the ones that make problems for everyone.

Edgware

The upside is that the more women take up cycling the more bicycle saddles bohunks can sniff on sunny days

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

didnt read a word of the post, did you?

I read it all.
Your post expects the 5% to move out of the way.
I'm saying that they don't have to if they believe that it is safer!
I still don't see how they are taking it to an extreme to refer back to your earlier post!

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I read it all.
Your post expects the 5% to move out of the way.
I'm saying that they don't have to if they believe that it is safer!
I still don't see how they are taking it to an extreme to refer back to your earlier post!

alright seth we'll not drag the thread off tangent over it.

cnocbui

Seth Brundle wrote: »

"Take it to extremes" doing what exactly?
As someone who cycles frequently both alone and with a group, I don't recall seeing it taken to the extreme!

How about a wide road with a designated cycle lane, and three hardcore cyclists, riding three abreast so they could chat, with the third outer rider out in the car lane?

Then there is the bollocks of a group of riders on a narrow country road, with a lead car, a gaggle of 15 or so cyclists and another car behind driving with it's hazards on and a tailback of as many cars and trucks as there are cyclists? No one can pass that lot safely. I get that it's the deliberate intention of such groups that no car shall pass.

Greyfox

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Don't waste your time typing this. We all know what it's like to be a woman and feel unsafe jogging, cycling or even walking in public due to cat calls, leering and even verbal abuse, but the men on here refuse to accept that any of this happens and would prefer to call women liars and drama queens than to actually recognise that this happens, and far more frequently than they realise.

Men on here know these things happen, the problem is there's not much that can be done about the arseh*les that do this other then confronting the men that do it which usually doesnt end well. It makes more sense to help women to be able to deal with these situations rather than just blaming men

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Don't waste your time typing this. We all know what it's like to be a woman and feel unsafe jogging, cycling or even walking in public due to cat calls, leering and even verbal abuse, but the men on here refuse to accept that any of this happens and would prefer to call women liars and drama queens than to actually recognise that this happens, and far more frequently than they realise.

Must be nice to live in a world where you think things don't happen because you've never personally seen them happen.

Who's refusing that ANY of this happens? Why are you trying to drive a wedge between the sexes? What's your agenda?

Sardonicat

Greyfox wrote: »

Men on here know these things happen, the problem is there's not much that can be done about the arseh*les that do this other then confronting the men that do it which usually doesnt end well. It makes more sense to help women to be able to deal with these situations rather than just blaming men

Really, that's what makes sense to you?

Zorya

Many decades ago I cycled several miles to and from school for abòut 8 years. There were always gobshytes who would yell at ya, spit, tease, throw stuff or just generally holler idiocies after you. This is nothing new. One day a familiar knacker stuck his new fishing rod - thankfully unstrung - out through my spokes to try and throw me. The rod snapped in half. I can still remember the surge of joy and power I felt in that moment. Made me much more confident about yelling back at them ever after, and gradually they stopped. In fact I became quite specialised in making vulgar hand signs while traveling at top speed. Even as a shy girl.

I think girls and boys need to get tough by living life. You cannot educate gobshytes.

Thelonious Monk

Any women I suggested cycling to work usually just say it's too dangerous and something about make up or their hair and showering etc.
So there are many factors as to why they don't cycle in Ireland, not just the cat calling of blokes.

suicide_circus

Sardonicat wrote: »

Really, that's what makes sense to you?

lets get solution focused here? the pervs already know their behaviour is unacceptable. they only do it in a cowardly fashion when they won't be challenged. no amount of education will solve it. think of any number of socially unacceptable activities which go on; fly tipping, public drunkenness. What's the answer? Enforcement? There will never be the resources to be enough of a deterrent to wipe it out. In the meantime girls are losing out on a great source of exercise and transport. Lets go back to the point made earlier about the problem of girls participating in PE - where is that coming from?

Sardonicat

suicide_circus wrote: »

lets get solution focused here? the pervs already know their behaviour is unacceptable. they only do it in a cowardly fashion when they won't be challenged. no amount of education will solve it. think of any number of socially unacceptable activities which go on; fly tipping, public drunkenness. What's the answer? Enforcement? There will never be the resources to be enough of a deterrent to wipe it out. In the meantime girls are losing out on a great source of exercise and transport. Lets go back to the point made earlier about the problem of girls participating in PE - where is that coming from?

Prosecution might solve it.

suicide_circus

Sardonicat wrote: »

Prosecution might solve it.

sure would! but see my point about enforcement.

Sardonicat

suicide_circus wrote: »

sure would! but see my point about enforcement.

A gopro on a cycle helmet would achieve wonders. Then name and shame in the local press.

suicide_circus

Sardonicat wrote: »

A gopro on a cycle helmet would achieve wonders. Then name and shame in the local press.

yeah that would do it. might be seen as an unreasonable expense however!

I used to get yelled at all the time. Mostly by taxi drivers. I think it was down to my dubious cycling ability and their entitled attitude. The best solution I came to was wearing big headphones so I can't hear them.

beejee

Sardonicat wrote: »

A gopro on a cycle helmet would achieve wonders. Then name and shame in the local press.

"Hello, guard? I'd like to report an incident. Someone called me a poopy head"

"this is a very serious allegation! Do you have any evidence to back this up? "

"I have blurry video footage of a random person"

"Say no more! We'll crack this case wide open and then communicate with the national press on our progress. "

cnocbui

Sardonicat wrote: »

A gopro on a cycle helmet would achieve wonders. Then name and shame in the local press.

Front and rear cams are a must, I think. Would have helped immensely in this road rage against a woman cyclist: https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/shaken-to-the-core-cyclist-left-bruised-with-chipped-tooth-head-gash-after-she-was-run-off-the-road-20190919-p52swv.html

I don't think it will be long before women are wearing body-cams as a matter of course, if the tech evolves to making them disguisable as jewellery.

py2006

Deleted User wrote: »

The best solution I came to was wearing big headphones so I can't hear them.

Not clever while cycling

beejee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I used to get yelled at all the time. Mostly by taxi drivers. I think it was down to my dubious cycling ability and their entitled attitude. The best solution I came to was wearing big headphones so I can't hear them.

Just like me. I also removed my brakes so as I could get through red lights quicker (motivation), and then sellotaped my eyes closed so I couldn't see dangerous things and be worried.

Much better now for everyone

Sardonicat

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah that would do it. might be seen as an unreasonable expense however!

You want to get girls/women cycling again. If enough old (and young) pervs were publicly prosecuted you wouldn't be long seeing a drop off in incidents.

Really, if a black lad was harassed on his way to school based on the colour of his skin would your response be"teach black kids more emotional resilience"?

But a girl must learn to live with gawking, commenting, arse slapping , hearing what some git would like to do to her, /wouldn't do to her, because of her body? Ah sure, that's OK cos men are more likely to be attacked.

beejee

Sardonicat wrote: »

You want to get girls/women cycling again. If enough old (and young) pervs were publicly prosecuted you wouldn't be long seeing a drop off in incidents.

Really, if a black lad was harassed on his way to school based on the colour of his skin would your response be"teach black kids more emotional resilience"?

But a girl must learn to live with gawking, commenting, arse slapping , hearing what some git would like to do to her, /wouldn't do to her, because of her body? Ah sure, that's OK cos men are more likely to be attacked.

"you want to see women cycling again"

"again"? What happened?

Sardonicat

beejee wrote: »

"Hello, guard? I'd like to report an incident. Someone called me a poopy head"

"this is a very serious allegation! Do you have any evidence to back this up? "

"I have blurry video footage of a random person"

"Say no more! We'll crack this case wide open and then communicate with the national press on our progress. "

Someone posted earlier that she was slapped on the arse whilst cycling when she was 13 years old. That's hardly calling someone a 'poopy head' and you know it. That's an assault.

beejee

Sardonicat wrote: »

Someone posted earlier that she was slapped in the arse whilst cycling when she was 13 years old. That's hardly calling someone a 'poopy head' and you know it. That's an assault.

I didn't read that, but I still see nothing coming of verbal stuff, cameras or not.

Silentcorner

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Don't waste your time typing this. We all know what it's like to be a woman and feel unsafe jogging, cycling or even walking in public due to cat calls, leering and even verbal abuse, but the men on here refuse to accept that any of this happens and would prefer to call women liars and drama queens than to actually recognise that this happens, and far more frequently than they realise.

Must be nice to live in a world where you think things don't happen because you've never personally seen them happen.

I don't doubt a woman when we hear this, and i completely understand how off putting it must be for any woman.

I jog myself so I am well aware of how teenage boys, and to a lesser extent girls, can throw verbal abuse and the odd object at a passer by, it doesn't bother most men because men are not physically intimidated (more often than not)...but I completely understand how a woman might feel bothered by it.

I also believe that women get more casual b#llockolgy from infantile men on a day to day basis most would never open their mouth to another man...infantile women don't bother men at all...

I don't cycle because it is too dangerous in this country, urban or rural...I understand from cyclists most days would involve some kind of incident or confrontation, and I can understand why a woman wouldn't put herself through that...I used to cycle to school back in the day without incident, but the roads and people have changed.

This country has piss poor cycling infrastructure, even if we had decent cycling lanes more males would cycle than females, even if we segregated the cycling tracks!

Women don't cycle in bigger numbers for a variety of reasons, uniform, hair, weather, incidents etc etc...the fact that boys cycle at all is a credit to them.

Society is currently in the throws of gender hysteria and men are being blamed for everything, white men in particular for some reason...so the reaction you see will reflect that and if you think about it, can you blame them, can you empathise even a little that young men are being hit with that nasty narrative day in day out in school and media, there is bound to be a lash back!

py2006

Seriously, are school girls really subjected to the level she suggests of rampant sexual harassment while they cycle????

To me it sounds like todays all to common demented feminist nonsense which worryingly brainwashes some women in to ridiculous notions of perpetual victimhood.

I am sure if she went into the classrooms and asked girls directly they would tell you they don't want their hair and makeup messed up and be all sweaty etc. We all know how self conscious teens are.