Current affairs in Sweden

Mad_maxx

Just how left of us are the swedes?

Can you discuss immigration in the media over there in the way it's taboo in the Irish media?

Danzy

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Just how left of us are the swedes?

Can you discuss immigration in the media over there in the way it's taboo in the Irish media?

Way more taboo.

In some ways they are way more conformist now than 1950s Ireland.

Mad_maxx

Danzy wrote: »

Way more taboo.

In some ways they are way more conformist now than 1950s Ireland.

Nordics are inherently conformist societies, it's why their world famous welfare state was made work so successfully for so long

We are very conformist ourselves in many ways though unlike the Nordics, if we can get our neighbours to pay for our water etc, we will

When it was once the case we were affronted by Liberal attitudes, now we are up in arms if someone displays Conservative sensibilities.

biko

Iraqi Defence Minister Outed as Swedish Citizen With Criminal Record by News Outlet

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201911201077355499-iraqi-defence-minister-outed-as-swedish-citizen-with-criminal-record-by-news-outlet/

https://nyheteridag.se/plus/the-iraqi-minister-of-defence-is-a-swedish-citizen/

biko

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden

The Iraqi defence minister has been reported to Swedish police for benefits fraud, according to local media, amid claims he was receiving child and housing support long after returning to Baghdad.

Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

AlekSmart

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Nordics are inherently conformist societies, it's why their world famous welfare state was made work so successfully for so long

We are very conformist ourselves in many ways though unlike the Nordics, if we can get our neighbours to pay for our water etc, we will

When it was once the case we were affronted by Liberal attitudes, now we are up in arms if someone displays Conservative sensibilities.

So....would you extrapolate here that Middle Eastern or African folks are inherently Non-Conformist by nature ?

Would this then suggest that they might have more in common with our Wild Colonial Boy view of things ?

Very interesting all the same

AlekSmart

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden





Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

All good news for curmudgeonly ol racisty phobeophobes wherever they may be...yes ?

biko

AlekSmart wrote: »

All good news for curmudgeonly ol racisty phobeophobes wherever they may be...yes ?

Bad news for the people who claim "racists" are imagining things and have nothing to fear.

biko

About defrauding

Mainstream media:
https://www.tv4.se/nyheterna/klipp/asyls%C3%B6kande-registrerar-olika-personuppgifter-hos-olika-myndigheter-3899333

Upwards of 50 percent of those seeking asylum register different personal data with different authorities.

https://www.svd.se/samma-person-atta-identiteter
One immigrant - 8 identities!

The_Kew_Tour

No doubt the above happens here too. I have even read about some dressing up as different sex going in for different payments

biko

I don't doubt for a second it happens everywhere, and not just immigrants but natives too.

Beasty

biko wrote: »

Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

I'm an immigrant - while I would guess it is not targeted at the likes of myself I could become quite offended by such a statement. Please take care with your wording and in particular when statements like this can come across as quite sweeping

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I'm definitely talking about migrants OH, specifically those from developing world crapholes and those of an ideological bent. I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here on the back of freeloaders who showed up during the "boom" and ivory tower idealogues in the Dail and other vested interests. So far it's at a low enough level thank christ, but no more and we should resist this mental politic as much as possible. I certainly don't want here to become Sweden or have our cities reflect the ghettos of Britain, France, Germany et al. Sod that. Hell we can't even "integrate" Travellers in this country. It's already kicked off on a low level and needs to be nipped in the bud and Sweden should be an example of how not to do it.

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden





Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

One poster describing diversity as an infection, another claiming all immigrants are fraudsters. I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

biko

Beasty wrote: »

I'm an immigrant - while I would guess it is not targeted at the likes of myself I could become quite offended by such a statement. Please take care with your wording and in particular when statements like this can come across as quite sweeping

No problem, I see how someone can be offended by sweeping statements

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

One poster describing diversity as an infection

I see the "diversity" and "multicultural" politics as an infection of sorts yes and make no bones about it and stated it quite clearly: I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here.

Did I say people were? Nope, but you knew that already, or read what you want to read, or were trying the all too usual Hail Mary attempt to shut down any debate and questions around this politic by shouting "racism". Well the supporters of this politic tend to be short on answers beyond the nebulous and naive, so I suppose one works with the meagre ammunition one has.

I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

I hate to break it to you and it may have slipped your notice, but Albanians and Georgians which are among the biggest scammers trying to get into Ireland(and being refused) according to our own immigration dept are caucasian. Try again.

Danzy

Slowyourrole wrote: »

One poster describing diversity as an infection, another claiming all immigrants are fraudsters. I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

They are old fashioned socialists.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

I see the "diversity" and "multicultural" politics as an infection of sorts yes and make no bones about it and stated it quite clearly: I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here.

Did I say people were? Nope, but you knew that already, or read what you want to read, or were trying the all too usual Hail Mary attempt to shut down any debate and questions around this politic by shouting "racism". Well the supporters of this politic tend to be short on answers beyond the nebulous and naive, so I suppose one works with the meagre ammunition one has.

I didn't say you referred to people though. You called diversity and multiculturism an infection. And while you may like to try and limit the meaning of racism, it doesn't change what you are.

Wibbs wrote: »

I hate to break it to you and it may have slipped your notice, but Albanians and Georgians which are among the biggest scammers trying to get into Ireland(and being refused) according to our own immigration dept are caucasian. Try again.

Racism includes discrimination by nationality. Although I have no doubt you knew that. It's a moot point anyway because the poster clearly referred to all immigrants.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

I didn't say you referred to people though. You called diversity and multiculturism an infection.

As a politic yes and as a cultural experiment that has failed in every other European country that has had to try to live under it. Not just European countries either. Go ahead, show us the success stories.

And while you may like to try and limit the meaning of racism, it doesn't change what you are.

Oh, now this is new, putting on the big boy/girl pants and straight out calling me a racist. Well... as usual in a corner of the mouth way.

Racism includes discrimination by nationality. Although I have no doubt you knew that.

Funny I thought it meant by "race", oddly enough the clue is in the word. "Although I have no doubt you knew that"... Ethnicity, that's a wider subject, as is nationality, which is even wider for some. But nope, you're backing the wrong horsey there. For a start I don't even consider "race" a valid description, population is more accurate, with lots and lots of greyness at the edges. Never mind that you conflate everything that doesn't agree with your position as "racist". Which is not exactly truthful. So try again. Again.

Or - and I know this may turn out to be a novel concept - how about actually engaging with the debate, or better yet, come up with answers beyond shrilling to your perceived peers in agreement and going straight to the buzzword insults and accusations in the hope of shutting it down.

And pigs might fly.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

As a politic yes and as a cultural experiment that has failed in every other European country that has had to try to live under it. Not just European countries either. Go ahead, show us the success stories.

Trying to narrow it down now is no good. That's why you should be wary of making such sweeping statements. I get that you don't like seeing nationalities mixing or seeing people of other religions around the place but that doesn't make diversity or multiculturism a failure. There are plenty of people across Europe who have made great contributions to the world and have done very well for themselves despite any issues relating to their race, ethnicity, nationality or religion and people like yourself who would see them being put in their place.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh, now this is new, putting on the big boy/girl pants and straight out calling me a racist. Well... as usual in a corner of the mouth way.

Perhaps you should try putting on some big boy pants yourself. I've no doubt you are a racist. Your posting is clear evidence of it.

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny I thought it meant by "race", oddly enough the clue is in the word. "Although I have no doubt you knew that"... Ethnicity, that's a wider subject, as is nationality, which is even wider for some. But nope, you're backing the wrong horsey there. For a start I don't even consider "race" a valid description, population is more accurate, with lots and lots of greyness at the edges. Never mind that you conflate everything that doesn't agree with your position as "racist". Which is not exactly truthful. So try again. Again.

UN definition of racial discrimination is


"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Agreed by 180 parties to the agreement and 80 signatories.

Wibbs wrote: »

Or - and I know this may turn out to be a novel concept - how about actually engaging with the debate, or better yet, come up with answers beyond shrilling to your perceived peers in agreement and going straight to the buzzword insults and accusations in the hope of shutting it down.

You aren't debating though. You are spewing out hate speech and racist rhetoric. You're points are based on tarring all people of a similar nationality or religion as the same as the worst person in that group. That's not an argument, that's just bigotry.

FTA69

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden

Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Trying to narrow it down now is no good.

I'm not.

That's why you should be wary of making such sweeping statements. I get that you don't like seeing nationalities mixing or seeing people of other religions around the place but that doesn't make diversity or multiculturism a failure.

1) you've zero idea what I like or don't like. 2) the results of multiculturalism are the point, not least for many of those from the minorities themselves. Pick any major multicultural European city at random, what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc?

There are plenty of people across Europe who have made great contributions to the world and have done very well for themselves despite any issues relating to their race, ethnicity, nationality or religion and people like yourself who would see them being put in their place.

Again with the projection and misrepresentation. Please point out any example where I have suggested anybody or any group be "put in their place". Just one will do.

And nobody is denying there are success stories and this is the usual tack by way of argument, but you seem oddly allergic to viewing the negatives and there are many. Again pick any major European city and what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc. No doubt you will find a few where the mayor is not from the indigenous population and point to them, but have the blinkers set to full when it comes to the negatives.

Perhaps you should try putting on some big boy pants yourself. I've no doubt you are a racist. Your posting is clear evidence of it.

Again with the accusations, with an attendant lack of evidence.

UN definition of racial discrimination is


"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Agreed by 180 parties to the agreement and 80 signatories.

Well then you better get onto the office of an Taoiseach Mr Varadkar as he singled out Georgian and Albanian migrants as driving the rise in asylum seeking numbers and accused them of having fake documents. Interestingly he avoided speaking about those from Africa who are also high in the numbers seeking and being refused entry by the relevant dept. Presumably to avoid the brickbats from those quick to shout racism. That's how silly things have gotten.

You aren't debating though. You are spewing out hate speech and racist rhetoric. You're points are based on tarring all people of a similar nationality or religion as the same as the worst person in that group. That's not an argument, that's just bigotry.

Ahh, here we go, we've ramped up the shut down debate buzzwords from "racism" to "hate speech" and "bigotry". We got the full house folks. And again please point out examples where I tarred anyone with any brush.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

+1. Never mind that "migrants" is a very vague term. There are plenty of EU and non EU people who legally entered this country and are in legal work. They are not the problem.

The problem lays with those who couldn't enter Ireland by legal means. Among the genuine asylum seekers from actual warzones who are in real danger, you have far more - and the government's own stats reflect this - who do not warrant refugee/asylum seeker status trying to get into this country. Economic migrants. When this country was the sick man of Europe economically we still had people seeking asylum here. I personally knew two families like this back in the 80's. However we had vanishingly few economic migrants. Cue the Celtic Tiger and the number of "refugees" and migrants shot up and then tailed off again when the bust came. Funny that.

FTA69

Yeah I’ve no doubt the majority of those seeking asylum etc are doing so for economic reasons; a far more relevant question in my opinion would be what are the push factors that drive people to take perilous and hard journeys from all over the world to work here? The global trading system is grossly unfair and as climate change increases we’re only going to see more of this sort of migration. It isn’t a ‘natural process’, it’s one half of the world getting screwed and taking a natural and understandable option. The “no borders now” nonsense ignores this though and somehow believes that importing an immigrant underclass to do sh*t jobs or draining the developing world’s talent is a decent thing.

Regardless of the above though, Ireland’s direct provision system is inhumane and wrong and from what I can see it benefits a minority of venture capitalists making hundreds of millions of euros in taxpayer’s money to house people in abominable and sh*t conditions.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not.

You are.

Wibbs wrote: »

I1) you've zero idea what I like or don't like. 2) the results of multiculturalism are the point, not least for many of those from the minorities themselves. Pick any major multicultural European city at random, what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc?

1) Of course I do. You're kind enough to post your views all across the site.


2) Ah I see, because migrants have a harder time than nationals it's all a failure. You're looking at early integration issues and using them as the overall result. In reality, though, subsequent generations integrate very well. That's the result.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAgain with the projection and misrepresentation. Please point out any example where I have suggested anybody or any group be "put in their place". Just one will do.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAnd nobody is denying there are success stories and this is the usual tack by way of argument, but you seem oddly allergic to viewing the negatives and there are many. Again pick any major European city and what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc. No doubt you will find a few where the mayor is not from the indigenous population and point to them, but have the blinkers set to full when it comes to the negatives.

Of course there will be negatives. There are negatives to everything. That doesn't make something a failure or an "infection".

Wibbs wrote: »

IAgain with the accusations, with an attendant lack of evidence.

This discussion started with the evidence.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well then you better get onto the office of an Taoiseach Mr Varadkar as he singled out Georgian and Albanian migrants as driving the rise in asylum seeking numbers and accused them of having fake documents. Interestingly he avoided speaking about those from Africa who are also high in the numbers seeking and being refused entry by the relevant dept. Presumably to avoid the brickbats from those quick to shout racism. That's how silly things have gotten.

Not really clear why you think something Varadkar says would change my view.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAhh, here we go, we've ramped up the shut down debate buzzwords from "racism" to "hate speech" and "bigotry". We got the full house folks. And again please point out examples where I tarred anyone with any brush.

The first post of yours I quoted.

FTA69

I think a key question we need to be asking is what is multiculturalism and what do we mean by it? There’s nothing wrong with the idea in general of people from different backgrounds living together. And despite the doom and gloom I read on these forums about how London etc are examples of how it’s a disaster full stop, the vast vast majority of people live together in peace. There’s ten different nationalities on my team, and six in my house. The average Londoner interacts with people of different backgrounds a hundred times a day; if it was as bad as people say we’d all be killing each other non stop.

However, in order for that to work there has to be an overarching vision of what unifies us and a set of standards. The average working person has more in common with each other across class lines but when we start to silo people exclusively into the ‘Muslim community’ or the ‘black community’ etc it can actually foster division instead of promoting any sort of unity. Things like Salafist Islam etc or assuming the Imam down the mosque automatically speaks for the spectrum of British Muslims is reactionary and dodgy in my opinion - and a lot of that nonsense was actively promoted by people like Tony Blair for instance.

What p*sses me off is when people hold up issues like gang crime or poverty as solely being down to someone being Somalian or Albanian etc and massively ignoring social and economic issues. Crime etc here is much more rooted in things like high rents, crap housing and low pay as it is someone having parents from Ghana or wherever.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You are.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I know this can come as a shock to many.

1) Of course I do. You're kind enough to post your views all across the site.

And yet for all these views across the site you can't come up with examples of what you're accusing me of. OK.

2) Ah I see, because migrants have a harder time than nationals it's all a failure. You're looking at early integration issues and using them as the overall result. In reality, though, subsequent generations integrate very well. That's the result.

Again you can say it, it doesn't make it true. Indeed it's nearly always subsequent generations that have it harder and cause and are more the focus of antisocial behaviour and crime. The Swedish experience with "early integration issues" involving grenade attacks are actually the outlier, though many appear to be second generation. It's usually the first generation that try to make a go of things.

Take our neighbour the UK. They've had quite large scale immigration from their fallen empire and while some demographics have done well or are similar to background, others have done worse. Those folks from the Caribbean who went to the UK in the 40's and 50's didn't show up to any great degree in crime stats, if anything they were below background levels, yet their children, grandchildren even great grandchildren are very much overrepresented in the social deprivation and crime stats. There weren't too many Jamaican folks in the 40's and 50's running drug gangs and going on stabbing sprees.

Again I put the same question to you: Pick any major multicultural European city and what are the demographics of the most socially deprived and crime ridden areas? Oh and in the majority of cases the people in such areas of non indigenous background are there for at least two generations, often more. In Ireland today, what is the percentage of those migrants and their families who came during the celtic tiger living in leafy suburbia and that's within twenty years?

Of course there will be negatives. There are negatives to everything. That doesn't make something a failure or an "infection".

When the negatives outweigh the positives and those negatives are wilfully ignored by those pushing this politic, that's a failure and funny enough one illustrated and admitted by those pushing this politic.

Not really clear why you think something Varadkar says would change my view.

Oh I suspect your view is not for turning no matter what.

The first post of yours I quoted.

Where I questioned this politic and referred to as infectious? Is this the kinda "debate" that is wheeled out if someone may quite validly question say an article of feminism and then gets accused of "hating women"? Right you are.

wellwhynot

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah I’ve no doubt the majority of those seeking asylum etc are doing so for economic reasons; a far more relevant question in my opinion would be what are the push factors that drive people to take perilous and hard journeys from all over the world to work here?

Those who deride borders are unwilling to address why tens of millions of people choose to cross them in the first place, leaving their language fluency and native soil — at great personal risk. The answer is obvious: migration and it is usually a one-way street, from the non-West to the West or its Westernized manifestations. People walk, climb, swim, and fly across borders, secure in the knowledge that boundaries mark different approaches to human experience, with one side perceived as more successful or inviting than the other.

Western rules that promote a greater likelihood of consensual government, religious tolerance, an independent judiciary, free-market capitalism, and the protection of private property combine to offer the individual a level of prosperity and personal security rarely enjoyed at home. As a result, migrants make the necessary travel adjustments to go westward — especially given that Western civilization, uniquely so, has usually defined itself by culture, not race, and thus alone is willing to accept and integrate those of different races who wish to share its protocols.

Many unassimilated Muslims in the West assume that they can ignore Western jurisprudence and yet rely on it in extremis. Today’s Pakistani new arrival in London might wish to follow sharia law as he knew it in Punjab. But implicit are two unmentionable constants: The migrant most certainly does not wish to return to face sharia law in Pakistan. Second, if he had his way, institutionalizing his native culture into that of his newly adopted land, he would eventually flee the results — and once again likely go somewhere else, for the same reasons that he left home in the first place.

From this article
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hanson-borders-20160731-snap-story.html

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

What p*sses me off is when people hold up issues like gang crime or poverty as solely being down to someone being Somalian or Albanian etc and massively ignoring social and economic issues. Crime etc here is much more rooted in things like high rents, crap housing and low pay as it is someone having parents from Ghana or wherever.

Oh I would largely agree FT. I would also agree on commonalities. EG I'd have much more in common with a "Black" Londoner, than a "White" South African. Though the Londoner will have had significantly more hassle due to his melanin levels than I would, even though I'd be the "foreigner" in the UK. And you left out the racist angle too. That is very much in play and an angle that applies to some groups more than others.

However and for all sorts of reasons, not least the aforementioned racism, there are worldwide long standing trends in demographics. Pick any multicultural city or country on the planet. Which of these (very broad) three demographics are most or least likely to be involved in crime, antisocial behaviour and live in poverty: Africans, Europeans, or East Asians? This is pretty consistent and yes racism is a very large part of it, but I'm not so naive to believe that this is going to go away any time soon, if ever. Plus I have never in my travels overseas to non European countries thought; "this place and culture could be improved by importing White or Asian people".

My position on multiculturalism has always been and remains that any nation has internal issues of economics, social problems and crime, many have their own internal ethnic issues too(QV Travellers here), but where is the logic in importing more of the same and increasing the type of issues previously not in play, including issues directly affecting the migrant population and their descendants? For me a better class of Uzbek restaurant in middle class areas and vague notions of "diversity" is not a plus point by way of balance.

biko

FTA69 wrote: »

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

I understand that your feeling are somehow hurt.

But as little backup I have for that to be true, just as little backup do you have for it not to be true.
Let's both use statistics and facts henceforth.

FTA69

biko wrote: »

I understand that your feeling are somehow hurt.

But as little backup I have for that to be true, just as little backup do you have for it not to be true.
Let's both use statistics and facts henceforth.

Oh I’m not hurt at all, some randomer coming out with nonsensical xenophobic rubbish on boards.ie is going to be the least of my hassles today don’t you worry.

If anything I find it gas that your reaction to being caught out on utter sh*te talk is some logical fallacy along the lines of ‘well prove to me ALL migrants AREN’T scamming the system’.

There’s no equivalency here, you were just spoofing and got pulled on it.