Current affairs in Sweden

biko

I don't doubt for a second it happens everywhere, and not just immigrants but natives too.

Beasty

biko wrote: »

Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

I'm an immigrant - while I would guess it is not targeted at the likes of myself I could become quite offended by such a statement. Please take care with your wording and in particular when statements like this can come across as quite sweeping

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I'm definitely talking about migrants OH, specifically those from developing world crapholes and those of an ideological bent. I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here on the back of freeloaders who showed up during the "boom" and ivory tower idealogues in the Dail and other vested interests. So far it's at a low enough level thank christ, but no more and we should resist this mental politic as much as possible. I certainly don't want here to become Sweden or have our cities reflect the ghettos of Britain, France, Germany et al. Sod that. Hell we can't even "integrate" Travellers in this country. It's already kicked off on a low level and needs to be nipped in the bud and Sweden should be an example of how not to do it.

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden





Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

One poster describing diversity as an infection, another claiming all immigrants are fraudsters. I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

biko

Beasty wrote: »

I'm an immigrant - while I would guess it is not targeted at the likes of myself I could become quite offended by such a statement. Please take care with your wording and in particular when statements like this can come across as quite sweeping

No problem, I see how someone can be offended by sweeping statements

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

One poster describing diversity as an infection

I see the "diversity" and "multicultural" politics as an infection of sorts yes and make no bones about it and stated it quite clearly: I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here.

Did I say people were? Nope, but you knew that already, or read what you want to read, or were trying the all too usual Hail Mary attempt to shut down any debate and questions around this politic by shouting "racism". Well the supporters of this politic tend to be short on answers beyond the nebulous and naive, so I suppose one works with the meagre ammunition one has.

I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

I hate to break it to you and it may have slipped your notice, but Albanians and Georgians which are among the biggest scammers trying to get into Ireland(and being refused) according to our own immigration dept are caucasian. Try again.

Danzy

Slowyourrole wrote: »

One poster describing diversity as an infection, another claiming all immigrants are fraudsters. I bet you both claim you aren't racist too.

They are old fashioned socialists.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

I see the "diversity" and "multicultural" politics as an infection of sorts yes and make no bones about it and stated it quite clearly: I'm also definitely talking about the BS that is "diversity" and "multiculturalism". We've already been infected with it here.

Did I say people were? Nope, but you knew that already, or read what you want to read, or were trying the all too usual Hail Mary attempt to shut down any debate and questions around this politic by shouting "racism". Well the supporters of this politic tend to be short on answers beyond the nebulous and naive, so I suppose one works with the meagre ammunition one has.

I didn't say you referred to people though. You called diversity and multiculturism an infection. And while you may like to try and limit the meaning of racism, it doesn't change what you are.

Wibbs wrote: »

I hate to break it to you and it may have slipped your notice, but Albanians and Georgians which are among the biggest scammers trying to get into Ireland(and being refused) according to our own immigration dept are caucasian. Try again.

Racism includes discrimination by nationality. Although I have no doubt you knew that. It's a moot point anyway because the poster clearly referred to all immigrants.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

I didn't say you referred to people though. You called diversity and multiculturism an infection.

As a politic yes and as a cultural experiment that has failed in every other European country that has had to try to live under it. Not just European countries either. Go ahead, show us the success stories.

And while you may like to try and limit the meaning of racism, it doesn't change what you are.

Oh, now this is new, putting on the big boy/girl pants and straight out calling me a racist. Well... as usual in a corner of the mouth way.

Racism includes discrimination by nationality. Although I have no doubt you knew that.

Funny I thought it meant by "race", oddly enough the clue is in the word. "Although I have no doubt you knew that"... Ethnicity, that's a wider subject, as is nationality, which is even wider for some. But nope, you're backing the wrong horsey there. For a start I don't even consider "race" a valid description, population is more accurate, with lots and lots of greyness at the edges. Never mind that you conflate everything that doesn't agree with your position as "racist". Which is not exactly truthful. So try again. Again.

Or - and I know this may turn out to be a novel concept - how about actually engaging with the debate, or better yet, come up with answers beyond shrilling to your perceived peers in agreement and going straight to the buzzword insults and accusations in the hope of shutting it down.

And pigs might fly.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

As a politic yes and as a cultural experiment that has failed in every other European country that has had to try to live under it. Not just European countries either. Go ahead, show us the success stories.

Trying to narrow it down now is no good. That's why you should be wary of making such sweeping statements. I get that you don't like seeing nationalities mixing or seeing people of other religions around the place but that doesn't make diversity or multiculturism a failure. There are plenty of people across Europe who have made great contributions to the world and have done very well for themselves despite any issues relating to their race, ethnicity, nationality or religion and people like yourself who would see them being put in their place.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh, now this is new, putting on the big boy/girl pants and straight out calling me a racist. Well... as usual in a corner of the mouth way.

Perhaps you should try putting on some big boy pants yourself. I've no doubt you are a racist. Your posting is clear evidence of it.

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny I thought it meant by "race", oddly enough the clue is in the word. "Although I have no doubt you knew that"... Ethnicity, that's a wider subject, as is nationality, which is even wider for some. But nope, you're backing the wrong horsey there. For a start I don't even consider "race" a valid description, population is more accurate, with lots and lots of greyness at the edges. Never mind that you conflate everything that doesn't agree with your position as "racist". Which is not exactly truthful. So try again. Again.

UN definition of racial discrimination is


"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Agreed by 180 parties to the agreement and 80 signatories.

Wibbs wrote: »

Or - and I know this may turn out to be a novel concept - how about actually engaging with the debate, or better yet, come up with answers beyond shrilling to your perceived peers in agreement and going straight to the buzzword insults and accusations in the hope of shutting it down.

You aren't debating though. You are spewing out hate speech and racist rhetoric. You're points are based on tarring all people of a similar nationality or religion as the same as the worst person in that group. That's not an argument, that's just bigotry.

FTA69

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden

Goes to show that no matter who these immigrants are, many/most/all will try to defraud the system.
Also it shows the government agencies total lack of any clues whatsoever.

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Trying to narrow it down now is no good.

I'm not.

That's why you should be wary of making such sweeping statements. I get that you don't like seeing nationalities mixing or seeing people of other religions around the place but that doesn't make diversity or multiculturism a failure.

1) you've zero idea what I like or don't like. 2) the results of multiculturalism are the point, not least for many of those from the minorities themselves. Pick any major multicultural European city at random, what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc?

There are plenty of people across Europe who have made great contributions to the world and have done very well for themselves despite any issues relating to their race, ethnicity, nationality or religion and people like yourself who would see them being put in their place.

Again with the projection and misrepresentation. Please point out any example where I have suggested anybody or any group be "put in their place". Just one will do.

And nobody is denying there are success stories and this is the usual tack by way of argument, but you seem oddly allergic to viewing the negatives and there are many. Again pick any major European city and what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc. No doubt you will find a few where the mayor is not from the indigenous population and point to them, but have the blinkers set to full when it comes to the negatives.

Perhaps you should try putting on some big boy pants yourself. I've no doubt you are a racist. Your posting is clear evidence of it.

Again with the accusations, with an attendant lack of evidence.

UN definition of racial discrimination is


"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."


Agreed by 180 parties to the agreement and 80 signatories.

Well then you better get onto the office of an Taoiseach Mr Varadkar as he singled out Georgian and Albanian migrants as driving the rise in asylum seeking numbers and accused them of having fake documents. Interestingly he avoided speaking about those from Africa who are also high in the numbers seeking and being refused entry by the relevant dept. Presumably to avoid the brickbats from those quick to shout racism. That's how silly things have gotten.

You aren't debating though. You are spewing out hate speech and racist rhetoric. You're points are based on tarring all people of a similar nationality or religion as the same as the worst person in that group. That's not an argument, that's just bigotry.

Ahh, here we go, we've ramped up the shut down debate buzzwords from "racism" to "hate speech" and "bigotry". We got the full house folks. And again please point out examples where I tarred anyone with any brush.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

+1. Never mind that "migrants" is a very vague term. There are plenty of EU and non EU people who legally entered this country and are in legal work. They are not the problem.

The problem lays with those who couldn't enter Ireland by legal means. Among the genuine asylum seekers from actual warzones who are in real danger, you have far more - and the government's own stats reflect this - who do not warrant refugee/asylum seeker status trying to get into this country. Economic migrants. When this country was the sick man of Europe economically we still had people seeking asylum here. I personally knew two families like this back in the 80's. However we had vanishingly few economic migrants. Cue the Celtic Tiger and the number of "refugees" and migrants shot up and then tailed off again when the bust came. Funny that.

FTA69

Yeah I’ve no doubt the majority of those seeking asylum etc are doing so for economic reasons; a far more relevant question in my opinion would be what are the push factors that drive people to take perilous and hard journeys from all over the world to work here? The global trading system is grossly unfair and as climate change increases we’re only going to see more of this sort of migration. It isn’t a ‘natural process’, it’s one half of the world getting screwed and taking a natural and understandable option. The “no borders now” nonsense ignores this though and somehow believes that importing an immigrant underclass to do sh*t jobs or draining the developing world’s talent is a decent thing.

Regardless of the above though, Ireland’s direct provision system is inhumane and wrong and from what I can see it benefits a minority of venture capitalists making hundreds of millions of euros in taxpayer’s money to house people in abominable and sh*t conditions.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not.

You are.

Wibbs wrote: »

I1) you've zero idea what I like or don't like. 2) the results of multiculturalism are the point, not least for many of those from the minorities themselves. Pick any major multicultural European city at random, what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc?

1) Of course I do. You're kind enough to post your views all across the site.


2) Ah I see, because migrants have a harder time than nationals it's all a failure. You're looking at early integration issues and using them as the overall result. In reality, though, subsequent generations integrate very well. That's the result.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAgain with the projection and misrepresentation. Please point out any example where I have suggested anybody or any group be "put in their place". Just one will do.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAnd nobody is denying there are success stories and this is the usual tack by way of argument, but you seem oddly allergic to viewing the negatives and there are many. Again pick any major European city and what is the demographic pattern when it comes to the most socially deprived areas, crime rates etc. No doubt you will find a few where the mayor is not from the indigenous population and point to them, but have the blinkers set to full when it comes to the negatives.

Of course there will be negatives. There are negatives to everything. That doesn't make something a failure or an "infection".

Wibbs wrote: »

IAgain with the accusations, with an attendant lack of evidence.

This discussion started with the evidence.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well then you better get onto the office of an Taoiseach Mr Varadkar as he singled out Georgian and Albanian migrants as driving the rise in asylum seeking numbers and accused them of having fake documents. Interestingly he avoided speaking about those from Africa who are also high in the numbers seeking and being refused entry by the relevant dept. Presumably to avoid the brickbats from those quick to shout racism. That's how silly things have gotten.

Not really clear why you think something Varadkar says would change my view.

Wibbs wrote: »

IAhh, here we go, we've ramped up the shut down debate buzzwords from "racism" to "hate speech" and "bigotry". We got the full house folks. And again please point out examples where I tarred anyone with any brush.

The first post of yours I quoted.

FTA69

I think a key question we need to be asking is what is multiculturalism and what do we mean by it? There’s nothing wrong with the idea in general of people from different backgrounds living together. And despite the doom and gloom I read on these forums about how London etc are examples of how it’s a disaster full stop, the vast vast majority of people live together in peace. There’s ten different nationalities on my team, and six in my house. The average Londoner interacts with people of different backgrounds a hundred times a day; if it was as bad as people say we’d all be killing each other non stop.

However, in order for that to work there has to be an overarching vision of what unifies us and a set of standards. The average working person has more in common with each other across class lines but when we start to silo people exclusively into the ‘Muslim community’ or the ‘black community’ etc it can actually foster division instead of promoting any sort of unity. Things like Salafist Islam etc or assuming the Imam down the mosque automatically speaks for the spectrum of British Muslims is reactionary and dodgy in my opinion - and a lot of that nonsense was actively promoted by people like Tony Blair for instance.

What p*sses me off is when people hold up issues like gang crime or poverty as solely being down to someone being Somalian or Albanian etc and massively ignoring social and economic issues. Crime etc here is much more rooted in things like high rents, crap housing and low pay as it is someone having parents from Ghana or wherever.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You are.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I know this can come as a shock to many.

1) Of course I do. You're kind enough to post your views all across the site.

And yet for all these views across the site you can't come up with examples of what you're accusing me of. OK.

2) Ah I see, because migrants have a harder time than nationals it's all a failure. You're looking at early integration issues and using them as the overall result. In reality, though, subsequent generations integrate very well. That's the result.

Again you can say it, it doesn't make it true. Indeed it's nearly always subsequent generations that have it harder and cause and are more the focus of antisocial behaviour and crime. The Swedish experience with "early integration issues" involving grenade attacks are actually the outlier, though many appear to be second generation. It's usually the first generation that try to make a go of things.

Take our neighbour the UK. They've had quite large scale immigration from their fallen empire and while some demographics have done well or are similar to background, others have done worse. Those folks from the Caribbean who went to the UK in the 40's and 50's didn't show up to any great degree in crime stats, if anything they were below background levels, yet their children, grandchildren even great grandchildren are very much overrepresented in the social deprivation and crime stats. There weren't too many Jamaican folks in the 40's and 50's running drug gangs and going on stabbing sprees.

Again I put the same question to you: Pick any major multicultural European city and what are the demographics of the most socially deprived and crime ridden areas? Oh and in the majority of cases the people in such areas of non indigenous background are there for at least two generations, often more. In Ireland today, what is the percentage of those migrants and their families who came during the celtic tiger living in leafy suburbia and that's within twenty years?

Of course there will be negatives. There are negatives to everything. That doesn't make something a failure or an "infection".

When the negatives outweigh the positives and those negatives are wilfully ignored by those pushing this politic, that's a failure and funny enough one illustrated and admitted by those pushing this politic.

Not really clear why you think something Varadkar says would change my view.

Oh I suspect your view is not for turning no matter what.

The first post of yours I quoted.

Where I questioned this politic and referred to as infectious? Is this the kinda "debate" that is wheeled out if someone may quite validly question say an article of feminism and then gets accused of "hating women"? Right you are.

wellwhynot

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah I’ve no doubt the majority of those seeking asylum etc are doing so for economic reasons; a far more relevant question in my opinion would be what are the push factors that drive people to take perilous and hard journeys from all over the world to work here?

Those who deride borders are unwilling to address why tens of millions of people choose to cross them in the first place, leaving their language fluency and native soil — at great personal risk. The answer is obvious: migration and it is usually a one-way street, from the non-West to the West or its Westernized manifestations. People walk, climb, swim, and fly across borders, secure in the knowledge that boundaries mark different approaches to human experience, with one side perceived as more successful or inviting than the other.

Western rules that promote a greater likelihood of consensual government, religious tolerance, an independent judiciary, free-market capitalism, and the protection of private property combine to offer the individual a level of prosperity and personal security rarely enjoyed at home. As a result, migrants make the necessary travel adjustments to go westward — especially given that Western civilization, uniquely so, has usually defined itself by culture, not race, and thus alone is willing to accept and integrate those of different races who wish to share its protocols.

Many unassimilated Muslims in the West assume that they can ignore Western jurisprudence and yet rely on it in extremis. Today’s Pakistani new arrival in London might wish to follow sharia law as he knew it in Punjab. But implicit are two unmentionable constants: The migrant most certainly does not wish to return to face sharia law in Pakistan. Second, if he had his way, institutionalizing his native culture into that of his newly adopted land, he would eventually flee the results — and once again likely go somewhere else, for the same reasons that he left home in the first place.

From this article
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hanson-borders-20160731-snap-story.html

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

What p*sses me off is when people hold up issues like gang crime or poverty as solely being down to someone being Somalian or Albanian etc and massively ignoring social and economic issues. Crime etc here is much more rooted in things like high rents, crap housing and low pay as it is someone having parents from Ghana or wherever.

Oh I would largely agree FT. I would also agree on commonalities. EG I'd have much more in common with a "Black" Londoner, than a "White" South African. Though the Londoner will have had significantly more hassle due to his melanin levels than I would, even though I'd be the "foreigner" in the UK. And you left out the racist angle too. That is very much in play and an angle that applies to some groups more than others.

However and for all sorts of reasons, not least the aforementioned racism, there are worldwide long standing trends in demographics. Pick any multicultural city or country on the planet. Which of these (very broad) three demographics are most or least likely to be involved in crime, antisocial behaviour and live in poverty: Africans, Europeans, or East Asians? This is pretty consistent and yes racism is a very large part of it, but I'm not so naive to believe that this is going to go away any time soon, if ever. Plus I have never in my travels overseas to non European countries thought; "this place and culture could be improved by importing White or Asian people".

My position on multiculturalism has always been and remains that any nation has internal issues of economics, social problems and crime, many have their own internal ethnic issues too(QV Travellers here), but where is the logic in importing more of the same and increasing the type of issues previously not in play, including issues directly affecting the migrant population and their descendants? For me a better class of Uzbek restaurant in middle class areas and vague notions of "diversity" is not a plus point by way of balance.

biko

FTA69 wrote: »

Hang about so all migrants will try and commit fraud?

Absolute b*llocks lad.

I understand that your feeling are somehow hurt.

But as little backup I have for that to be true, just as little backup do you have for it not to be true.
Let's both use statistics and facts henceforth.

FTA69

biko wrote: »

I understand that your feeling are somehow hurt.

But as little backup I have for that to be true, just as little backup do you have for it not to be true.
Let's both use statistics and facts henceforth.

Oh I’m not hurt at all, some randomer coming out with nonsensical xenophobic rubbish on boards.ie is going to be the least of my hassles today don’t you worry.

If anything I find it gas that your reaction to being caught out on utter sh*te talk is some logical fallacy along the lines of ‘well prove to me ALL migrants AREN’T scamming the system’.

There’s no equivalency here, you were just spoofing and got pulled on it.

Timberrrrrrrr

biko wrote: »

I understand that your feeling are somehow hurt.

But as little backup I have for that to be true, just as little backup do you have for it not to be true.
Let's both use statistics and facts henceforth.

If you make a claim is the onus not on you to back that claim up with evidence?

Woodenfloor

Her name is Ebba Akerlund

biko

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

If you make a claim is the onus not on you to back that claim up with evidence?

Yes, so far I only have sources to say up to 50% of those seeking asylum register different personal data with different authorities.

That is not "all", the trigger word for several of the last posters - but I suppose it can qualify for "many" and considering we don't know if this is everyone it can possibly be "most"

Do you have numbers to say these numbers are less, for Sweden?

biko

biko wrote: »

Story now picked up by mainstreamers once the alternatives have broken the story last week
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iraqs-defence-minister-accused-benefit-fraud-sweden

And now by WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sweden-opens-investigations-into-iraqs-defense-minister-11574778204?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

Sweden is investigating Iraq’s defense minister for suspected crimes against humanity as well as benefits fraud related to his time as a refugee in the Scandinavian country, Swedish prosecutors and police said.

A spokeswoman for the prosecutor, who announced the human-rights probe on Monday, declined to give any detail about the allegations against Najah Shimmari, including whether they related to his role as a general under Saddam Hussein or his time as defense minister in the current government

biko

And if you think this was a first for Sweden to harbour a war criminal, of course it's not..

A Swedish court convicted a 61-year-old man on Monday of taking part in the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and sentenced him to life in prison. The case was noteworthy for being part of a transnational effort to hold people accountable for crimes against humanity, no matter where those crimes occurred.

The Stockholm District Court found that the man, Claver Berinkindi, a Rwandan who obtained Swedish citizenship in 2012, had participated in five massacres between April 18 and May 31, 1994.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/world/europe/sweden-rwanda-claver-berinkindi.html

Serbian prosecutors suspect a Swedish man of involvement in a massacre in Kosovo in 1999, according to office of the war crimes prosecutor in Belgrade.
The man is reported to live in a town in central Sweden.
He is a Swedish citizen and originates from Kosovo.

https://www.thelocal.se/20131117/swede-suspected-of-kosovo-war-crimes
Sweden, modern day Argentina..

Timberrrrrrrr

biko wrote: »

Yes, so far I only have sources to say up to 50% of those seeking asylum register different personal data with different authorities.

May we see these sources?

That is not "all", the trigger word for several of the last posters - but I suppose it can qualify for "many" and considering we don't know if this is everyone it can possibly be "most"

Do you have numbers to say these numbers are less, for Sweden?

So you're basically guessing and throwing it out there to further your agenda?

Richard Hillman

This is unreal

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/1199791967204466688?s=19

Richard Hillman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

This is unreal

https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/1199791967204466688?s=19

Jez the guy only got 4 months for raping a woman and then goes on to murder! He should of been deported right away. And I wonder if the media there are reporting on that story. I imagine it wouldnt go along well with the propaganda they having been spewing out for years. I know a similar story happened in Ireland where a woman was raped by a migrant but he could not be deported in the end due to EU law. So he continued to stay in Ireland, the government gave him a free house and free money every week. While the woman later killed herself as she did not feel safe going outside. Any way the media here were not interested in the story, coz ya they dont give a sh*t about the safety of the individual - they just care about furthering their liberal agenda.

Gynoid

I dont know about how other people feel but it is these regular stories of gang rape, often particularly brutal, often on young girls, that have most affected my opinion on immigration over the past 5 years or so.
Of course they do not represent the vast majority but they are indicative of an encultured mindset that is no longer European whereby women are deeply disrespected as chattels and second class citizens.
I would have been a bit of a bleeding heart long before that, an old school socialist before I really thought a lot about history and looked past the one line myth - " That was not really socialism.". Am still a bit foolishly soft in that I always expect the best of people in real life, but these truly ugly and regular rape stories have been like repeated hammer blows on any idealism I may once have espoused. They sicken me to the gut.

Wibbs

Gynoid wrote: »

Of course they do not represent the vast majority but they are indicative of an encultured mindset that is no longer European whereby women are deeply disrespected as chattels and second class citizens.

As you say it isn't the vast majority, but there seems to be cultural aspects that drive a larger minority than background and not just in Sweden. Sweden's sexual assault stats are often trotted out and just as often derided as biased because of different reporting approaches, but a similar trend is found in France(oh and this is from the Vice website, not some right wing rag and the original French study is linked). The salient bit is:

According to the study, the average age for Parisians rape suspects was 34, with 44 percent unemployed and 52 percent of them foreign nationals. Nearly half of the suspects were already known to the police, including nearly a quarter who were repeat sex offenders.

In 92.5 percent of the cases included in the study, the victims were women, with 40 percent of them under 25. Half of the adult victims were employed, and nearly half of all employed victims were "highly qualified and in managerial positions." Nearly a third of the victims were born outside of France.

Over half of rape suspects and nearly a third of victims. So both perpetrators and victims are overrepresented in the foreign national demographic. These are insane percentages.

Gynoid

Gynoid wrote: »

I dont know about how other people feel but it is these regular stories of gang rape, often particularly brutal, often on young girls, that have most affected my opinion on immigration over the past 5 years or so.
Of course they do not represent the vast majority but they are indicative of an encultured mindset that is no longer European whereby women are deeply disrespected as chattels and second class citizens.
I would have been a bit of a bleeding heart long before that, an old school socialist before I really thought a lot about history and looked past the one line myth - " That was not really socialism.". Am still a bit foolishly soft in that I always expect the best of people in real life, but these truly ugly and regular rape stories have been like repeated hammer blows on any idealism I may once have espoused. They sicken me to the gut.

So which immigrants do you have a problem with because of this?
Because it seems it's all immigrants?

wellwhynot

This is one of my biggest fears for my children’s future. You import men from Rape Capitals of world and what can you expect? Do the State not care about protecting it’s own citizens? Women once again thrown under the bus so politicians can virtue signal. None of these countries are at war. If the government really wanted to help why don’t they take women and children only as they are the ones most at risk in these countries. But that would never happen.

pjohnson

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

May we see these sources?



So you're basically guessing and throwing it out there to further your agenda?

The Noel Grealish approach. That would be popular with Biko and his ilk tbf.

biko

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

May we see these sources?

It's already in the thread, post 250

Another from Swedish government pages
https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/interpellation/korrekta-personuppgifter-hos-myndigheter_H410469

Google translated:

According to the Swedish Tax Agency, upwards of 50 percent of those seeking asylum have registered different personal data with different authorities.

This means that the same person, by having multiple identities, can, for example, abuse our grant systems. The false personal data is in many cases used in criminal activities, according to the Swedish Tax Agency.

Slowyourrole

Waylon Fluffy Plumber wrote: »

Jez the guy only got 4 months for raping a woman and then goes on to murder!

He got four months for live streaming it, not for rape.

Gynoid wrote: »

I dont know about how other people feel but it is these regular stories of gang rape, often particularly brutal, often on young girls, that have most affected my opinion on immigration over the past 5 years or so.

That's the point of them. The reality is that sexual violence against women, including ones with multiple attackers, is a common occurrence across Europe. Yet we are at a point now where you hear about foreigners raping a woman in Sweden before you'd hear about one in your own county.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

That's the point of them. The reality is that sexual violence against women, including ones with multiple attackers, is a common occurrence across Europe. Yet we are at a point now where you hear about foreigners raping a woman in Sweden before you'd hear about one in your own county.

Indeed, but you seem to have missed this French statistic with links to the original data posted earlier:

According to the study, the average age for Parisians rape suspects was 34, with 44 percent unemployed and 52 percent of them foreign nationals.

Half of those stats are foreign nationals(and nearly a third of victims). Does this mean foreign nationals are all rapists? Of course it doesn't, but it does show a very strong tendency for rapists to be more likely to be foreign nationals. But sure, nothing to see here.

Gynoid

bubblypop wrote: »

So which immigrants do you have a problem with because of this?
Because it seems it's all immigrants?

I find this kind of casual dismissal of valid concerns coupled with a subtle insult as to my good character to be beneath contempt.

Gynoid

Gynoid wrote: »

I find this kind of casual dismissal of valid concerns coupled with a subtle insult as to my good character to be beneath contempt.

It's a question, won't you answer

EmmetSpiceland

Slowyourrole wrote: »

He got four months for live streaming it, not for rape.

You’d have wonder if he’d been white would there have been a thread on here saying the sentence was too harsh.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

It's a question, won't you answer

Well my answer has always been: every country and culture has its own internal social issues, so why import more and different ones? I also take issue with the idea that Europe is somehow in need of "cultural improvement" because of "diversity" when vanishingly few of the same people clamouring for that would say Africa or Asia is in need of improvement by the addition of a large percentage of illegal European migrants.

As for "immigrants", that's a wide topic. There's a helluva difference between legal immigration and actual asylum seekers and illegal immigration and economic migrants that couldn't gain legal entry to Europe and Ireland. There are cultural differences within the communities who may seek entry too. EG Sikhs from Pakistan don't show up to nearly the same degree in crime and social problem statistics compared to Muslims from Pakistan.

WrenBoy

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You’d have wonder if he’d been white would there have been a thread on here saying the sentence was too harsh.

If he was white he would have been locked up for years and rightly so, but having the jails full of recent immigrants is not a good look for their wonderful immigration policies so... 4 months.

Wibbs

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You’d have wonder if he’d been white would there have been a thread on here saying the sentence was too harsh.

Live streaming a gang rape? Throw away the key regardless of his skin tone.

EmmetSpiceland

Wibbs wrote: »

Live streaming a gang rape? Throw away the key regardless of his skin tone.

It’s the right sentiment, W, but it’s not what I’d see here.

I mean, you hear of the prominent rape trails involving white Irish lads and then you hear all the talk of ‘how the woman acted’, ‘why did she delete her texts?’ or, even, ‘oh, you know how women are. She probably woke up and regretted what happened so decided to ‘cry rape’.

Now, when you hear of a rape involving a black lad and then there’s a vicious attack of condemnation with venom and bile before any details emerge or charges pressed.

The defence mounted for that creepy stalker on here was staggering. Could you see the same appetite for that if he’d been a Pakistani or Moroccan?

Wibbs

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

The defence mounted for that creepy stalker on here was staggering. Could you see the same appetite for that if he’d been a Pakistani or Moroccan?

Oh I agree E, 100%. That would most certainly be in play. Plus you'd have some being more defensive because of the same origins. I see it as just another issue with multiculturalism and one seen anywhere it's in play. We're an inherently tribal animal, regardless of our "tribe" or ethnicity or culture and that won't change any time soon either. I have some admiration for those hopeful folks who think it will, but it's a false premise and promise IMHO, as history, both past and current amply illustrates.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, but you seem to have missed this French statistic with links to the original data posted earlier:

According to the study, the average age for Parisians rape suspects was 34, with 44 percent unemployed and 52 percent of them foreign nationals.

Half of those stats are foreign nationals(and nearly a third of victims). Does this mean foreign nationals are all rapists? Of course it doesn't, but it does show a very strong tendency for rapists to be more likely to be foreign nationals. But sure, nothing to see here.

As far as I can see, that study is based on a small sample of cases investigated by police in a 2 year period. Rape support groups claim that 80 to 90% of rapes are not reported to police so the study is severely lacking in representation.



You are making a logical leap to suit your argument. I could just as easily claim that the figures show women are more likely to report a rape to police when it is committed by an immigrant. The figures support both arguments.


You also fail to mention that Paris is the most multi cultural city in Europe with about 25% of the Parisian population being first gen immigrant and 40% of young people have at least one parent who is first gen. So even if the study was representative, you're still only looking at a small disproportion in the stats. Of course, then if you want to go further into it and look at the chances an immigrant lives in poverty or social deprivation and the increased likelihood of someone from that circumstance being involved in crime the picture gets even less simple.


But I guess condensing all that into a simplified headline suits you just fine.

wellwhynot

The Paris figures are similar to Sweden. 58% of rapes that resulted in convictions were committed by non-EU nationals namely North and South Africans, Afghans, Middle Easterns and Arabs. For stranger rapes in Sweden 80% were committed by non-EU nationals.

The_Kew_Tour

wellwhynot wrote: »

The Paris figures are similar to Sweden. 58% of rapes that resulted in convictions were committed by non-EU nationals namely North and South Africans, Afghans, Middle Easterns and Arabs. For stranger rapes in Sweden 80% were committed by non-EU nationals.

Would you have any links?

wellwhynot

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Would you have any links?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

Danzy

Slowyourrole wrote: »

He got four months for live streaming it, not for rape.





That's the point of them. The reality is that sexual violence against women, including ones with multiple attackers, is a common occurrence across Europe. Yet we are at a point now where you hear about foreigners raping a woman in Sweden before you'd hear about one in your own county.

There was a German police officer saying he saw one gang rape in his first 25 years, now they are once a month.

Culture and values do matter.

You can't equivocate this away.

Danzy

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Would you have any links?

One of the ways they figured it out was the no. of Rapist questioning that needed an interviewer.

Progressive Sweden tried its best to cover the problem but that was over looked.