VW ID.4

omgapuppy

Yeah enquired re the same yesterday and was told neither the 1st nor 1st Max will have it. Guess too mild a climate as the non-max 1st seems to have it in some markets i.e NL (Hello ID4 YT channel).

I was also informed the ID4 won't be here till March - April timeframe. Placed an order in December and it's shifted from the original "expected Jan - Feb".

the_amazing_raisin

omgapuppy wrote: »

Yeah enquired re the same yesterday and was told neither the 1st nor 1st Max will have it. Guess too mild a climate as the non-max 1st seems to have it in some markets i.e NL (Hello ID4 YT channel).

I was also informed the ID4 won't be here till March - April timeframe. Placed an order in December and it's shifted from the original "expected Jan - Feb".

I think there's 2 factors causing delays


1. Covid lockdown in Germany, factory is probably running at slower production
2. Brexit, because the UK isn't part of the EU then the majority of RHD cars sold no longer count towards EU emission targets, so there's more incentive to prioritise LHD cars

omgapuppy

2. Brexit, because the UK isn't part of the EU then the majority of RHD cars sold no longer count towards EU emission targets, so there's more incentive to prioritise LHD cars

That's not an angle I'd even thought about! Guess Irish consumers will be impacted by Brexit in more ways than immediately obvious

the_amazing_raisin

omgapuppy wrote: »

That's not an angle I'd even thought about! Guess Irish consumers will be impacted by Brexit in more ways than immediately obvious

Why break an 800 year habit?

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think there's 2 factors causing delays

You missed the big reason that VW reported, they retargeted production towards the US market. Currently the ID.4 is produced in Europe for the NA market, it will take some time before production moves to Chattanooga (2022). Until then they want to sell as many as they can whilst the still receive the US Federal Tax credit which gives people a huge incentive over the Tesla Model Y.

JohnnyJohnJohns

liamog wrote: »

You missed the big reason that VW reported, they retargeted production towards the US market. Currently the ID.4 is produced in Europe for the NA market, it will take some time before production moves to Chattanooga (2022). Until then they want to sell as many as they can whilst the still receive the US Federal Tax credit which gives people a huge incentive over the Tesla Model Y.

While I don't expect much from big companies like VW that is a bit **** on their behalf. I wouldn't have minded a date of April initially but to say January and then push it out for a completely predictable reason is very frustrating.

liamog

They have a fixed capacity for production, and reportedly received more orders than expected in North America.
Were Irish customers invited to submit their final orders yet? It's one of those oft misunderstood about pre-ordering processes.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

They have a fixed capacity for production, and reportedly received more orders than expected in North America.
Were Irish customers invited to submit their final orders yet? It's one of those oft misunderstood about pre-ordering processes.

I submitted my order back in October as soon as it became available

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like we have a new Bjorn, and he's Dutch (and not German as I originally assumed)

Range tests on the ID.4 in winter
100km/h
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3cxWr0Uevg

130km/h
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utX9ctgu_FY

To save you some time, here's the summary

Slow run - 207 Wh/km, avg speed 91km/h
Fast run - 291Wh/km, avg speed 113km/h

Both runs were at around 3-4C outside temp, both directions to minimise effects of wind.
2 people in the car, temp set to 19-21C, no heatpump.
He used Comfort driving mode instead of Eco
Travel assist used to maintain speed

Interestingly he charged after both runs and the car coldgated pretty badly after the slow run, getting around 55kW at 30%, I'd have expected 80-90kW at that SoC

After the high speed run the car charged properly, got 110kW at 19% SoC. So it seems higher driving speed = higher charging speed

Based on 77kWh battery, ranges are:
Slow = 371km
Fast = 264km

I'd hoped for a little more range at the high speed run, evidently the car's a bit on the chunky side which probably causes some drag

Hopefully the cold gating issues get sorted with a software update, I think they're talking about navigation based battery heating like Tesla, so the battery will be nice and warm on arrival at the charging station

Silent Running

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Looks like we have a new Bjorn, and he's Dutch (and not German as I originally assumed)

Range tests on the ID.4 in winter
100km/h
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3cxWr0Uevg

130km/h
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utX9ctgu_FY

To save you some time, here's the summary

Slow run - 207 Wh/km, avg speed 91km/h
Fast run - 291Wh/km, avg speed 113km/h

Both runs were at around 3-4C outside temp, both directions to minimise effects of wind.
2 people in the car, temp set to 19-21C, no heatpump.
He used Comfort driving mode instead of Eco
Travel assist used to maintain speed

Interestingly he charged after both runs and the car coldgated pretty badly after the slow run, getting around 55kW at 30%, I'd have expected 80-90kW at that SoC

After the high speed run the car charged properly, got 110kW at 19% SoC. So it seems higher driving speed = higher charging speed

Based on 77kWh battery, ranges are:
Slow = 371km
Fast = 264km

I'd hoped for a little more range at the high speed run, evidently the car's a bit on the chunky side which probably causes some drag

Hopefully the cold gating issues get sorted with a software update, I think they're talking about navigation based battery heating like Tesla, so the battery will be nice and warm on arrival at the charging station

It's more like lower state of charge = higher charging speed. So it's not necessarily coldgating, but the car limiting the charge rate because of the charge level.

Any of the charging videos I've seen covering the ID.3 and ID.4 have seen the full charge rate when charging at a low state of charge, regardless of temperature.

the_amazing_raisin

Silent Running wrote: »

It's more like lower state of charge = higher charging speed. So it's not necessarily coldgating, but the car limiting the charge rate because of the charge level.

Any of the charging videos I've seen covering the ID.3 and ID.4 have seen the full charge rate when charging at a low state of charge, regardless of temperature.

Yeah but at 30% I'd had expected a decent charging speed, not 56kW on a car that can do 125kW

Judging from Bjorn's latest experience with the ID.3, the battery heater seems to come on every so often if the temperature is below a certain level. If you can time it well then you'll get good charging speed, otherwise the battery might be cold when you arrive

Driving fast also seems to heat up the battery sufficiently to get a good charging speed

It's all stuff that can be changed with software updates thankfully. I suspect that VW are being extremely conservative with the battery until they see some early degradation values. If the battery isn't degrading at a higher than expected rate then hopefully they'll loosen the constraints on charging speed somewhat

Black_Knight

Silent Running wrote: »

It's more like lower state of charge = higher charging speed. So it's not necessarily coldgating, but the car limiting the charge rate because of the charge level.

Any of the charging videos I've seen covering the ID.3 and ID.4 have seen the full charge rate when charging at a low state of charge, regardless of temperature.

As cruisey1987 says, 55kW is pathetic at 30% for a car boasting 125kW. That's a horrific charging curve if accurate. ID3 charges at 100kW up to 30% then tapers down to 50kW at 70%. If 55kW is to be expected at 30% on the ID4, then what's the point of 125kW charging.

Assuming it's cold gating that's pretty bad too. Ending with 30% battery when driving 90km/hr is about a 2.5-3 hour drive, yet the battery is still too cold. :eek:

Silent Running

Black_Knight wrote: »

As cruisey1987 says, 55kW is pathetic at 30% for a car boasting 125kW. That's a horrific charging curve if accurate. ID3 charges at 100kW up to 30% then tapers down to 50kW at 70%. If 55kW is to be expected at 30% on the ID4, then what's the point of 125kW charging.

Assuming it's cold gating that's pretty bad too. Ending with 30% battery when driving 90km/hr is about a 2.5-3 hour drive, yet the battery is still too cold. :eek:

Yes, but if the car started to charge at 29%, for example, it might have held 125kW for much of the charge. A single snapshot in time doesn't map out the full charge curve.

If the car was coldgating, it wouldn't allow full rate at any point of the curve. This is clearly not the case as even in Bjorn's video the car charged faster when the SOC was lower. There are videos (Battery Life) of the ID.3 charging at the full 100kW at very low temperatures. I think it's a mistake to say that there's coldgating going on when the evidence suggests that it's more to do with SOC than temperature.

liamog

If you watch the two video's, post 100km/h the car maintains around 55kW to 60kW. After the second run at 130km/h it kicks off around 110kW at 19% and is at 106kW at 30%. It's a clear indicator of the battery being too cold during the initial charge.

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

If you watch the two video's, post 100km/h the car maintains around 55kW to 60kW. After the second run at 130km/h it kicks off around 110kW at 19% and is at 106kW at 30%. It's a clear indicator of the battery being too cold during the initial charge.

I'm not following. How is speed the decider and not SOC?

The same argument could be made this way: at 30% SOC the car charged at 55kW to 60kW, and at 19% it kicks off at around 110kW. It's a clear indicator that the SOC dictates the starting charge.

That and video evidence that the ID.3 can charge at it's maximum 100kW even in very cold temperatures. If it was going to coldgate, why didn't it in those videos?

Hint: the high rates were achieved at a low state of charge.

liamog

Did you watch the two video's?

The first one he does a range test at 100km/h then charges from 30%, it's daytime.
The second one he does a range test at 130km/h then charges from 20%, it's now nightime.

The battery will be warmer from the earlier charge and doing more work to travel faster. So it's not surprising that the second charge is much faster, it's classic coldgate behaviour.

80 mph winter range test. I looked forward to this test and it surprised me. Run the test on the same day as the 100 kmh. Only this time in the evening, because of the speed restrictions with "daylight". I am still currently on my summer tires. I will do some comparison tests when I am on winter tires or when the temperatures have been risen.

KCross

Not much is known about the VW BMS yet but other EV's decide the max charge rate based on the SoC at the start of the session. Battery temp also plays a big part in it but that starting SoC percentage is critical regardless of battery temp.... so its a combination of both and since we dont have the CANBUS data we dont really know.... and add in the fact that the VW software is not yet complete we dont know if the battery heating is really fully functional. It looks like it isnt eventhough the hardware is there for it.

Bottomline.... its all guess work for now. I'd wait for the 2.1 software to be released and we have CANBUS data to view and then repeat the tests.

the_amazing_raisin

Silent Running wrote: »

I'm not following. How is speed the decider and not SOC?

The same argument could be made this way: at 30% SOC the car charged at 55kW to 60kW, and at 19% it kicks off at around 110kW. It's a clear indicator that the SOC dictates the starting charge.

That and video evidence that the ID.3 can charge at it's maximum 100kW even in very cold temperatures. If it was going to coldgate, why didn't it in those videos?

Hint: the high rates were achieved at a low state of charge.

It's so much speed as battery temperature, cold batteries need to charge slower otherwise you risk damaging them


The battery heater should be switching on when you are charging with a cold battery to maximise charging speed


Ideally it'll switch on before you arrive, but that requires the car to know when it's going to charge. Teslas can do this with superchargers, if you navigate to a Supercharger the battery will be preheated before you arrive


In instances where the battery heater didn't do the job, then you can make some heat by driving faster. High speed pulls more current from the battery which in turn generates heat, thus preheating the battery


Nextmove found something similar with the ID.3, they drove at 90km/h down to a low SoC and the car charged slowly. Then they drove fast down to the same SoC and charged again and got better charging speeds


In most of the charging videos of the ID.3, they've been done after heating the battery or after a high speed run so the battery was already warm

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

Not much is known about the VW BMS yet but other EV's decide the max charge rate based on the SoC at the start of the session. Battery temp also plays a big part in it but that starting SoC percentage is critical regardless of battery temp.... so its a combination of both and since we dont have the CANBUS data we dont really know.... and add in the fact that the VW software is not yet complete we dont know if the battery heating is really fully functional. It looks like it isnt eventhough the hardware is there for it.

Bottomline.... its all guess work for now. I'd wait for the 2.1 software to be released and we have CANBUS data to view and then repeat the tests.

Ah I didn't think of that one, that most likely had an effect as well



I do feel the car coldgated as well given the outside temp and the data compiled by Nextmove on the ID.3. In summer I'd expect the car to get a higher charging speed at 30% SoC



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-ikz0wrls

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

Did you watch the two video's?

The first one he does a range test at 100km/h then charges from 30%, it's daytime.
The second one he does a range test at 130km/h then charges from 20%, it's now nightime.

The battery will be warmer from the earlier charge and doing more work to travel faster. So it's not surprising that the second charge is much faster, it's classic coldgate behaviour.

Is it? In a car with very active battery heating?

We'll just have to draw different conclusions from Bjorn's video, but Bjorn isn't infallible.

If he actually started the charges at the same SOC, some conclusions could be drawn. That's one thing that has turned me off Bjorn's videos: he makes assumptions and people then quote it as gospel. I first saw him do this when he was testing the classic Ioniq a few years ago.

Believe me, I understand the effect of faster driving on the heat of a battery, but in those conditions: - minus 25C - the difference between 100km/h and 130km/h would make feck all difference.

liamog

This person is driving in a temperature of around 4c and isn't Bjorn. Driving the car harder heats up the battery, charging the car at a rapid charger heats up the battery (verified personally on an Ioniq with Torque Pro)
I appreciate we don't have a figure for the battery temperature in this test, but what's more likely, the battery was colder and that affected the charging (as with lots of other cars) or that VW's BMS has decided that a 30% state of charge is enough to limit the initial charge rate to just 55kW, but starting just 10% lower will allow 110kW?

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

This person is driving in a temperature of around 4c and isn't Bjorn. Driving the car harder heats up the battery, charging the car at a rapid charger heats up the battery (verified personally on an Ioniq with Torque Pro)
I appreciate we don't have a figure for the battery temperature in this test, but what's more likely, the battery was colder and that affected the charging (as with lots of other cars) or that VW's BMS has decided that a 30% state of charge is enough to limit the initial charge rate to just 55kW, but starting just 10% lower will allow 110kW?

Apologies, no, I haven't had the time to watch those 2 videos. I thought we were discussing Bjorn's most recent cold run video in the ID.3. No idea why.

I don't necessarily call an EV having reduced charge rates in cold tests as coldgating, it's just normal behaviour in an EV and should be expected. The start charge rate will often be dictated by SOC, and doesn't necessarily indicate that the rate is being dictated by the battery temperature.

liamog

Silent Running wrote: »

I don't necessarily call an EV having reduced charge rates in cold tests as coldgating, it's just normal behaviour in an EV and should be expected. The start charge rate will often be dictated by SOC, and doesn't necessarily indicate that the rate is being dictated by the battery temperature.

Don't worry, I scrubbed through them . That's what it's come to be known as, where the battery is severely limited due to being cold is now often referred to as coldgate. I agree, it's a completely normal effect, however, manufacturers can apply mitigation factors via a battery heaters. It's a difficult nut, you don't want to waste too much energy heating a battery if a high powered charge isn't needed, but at the same time you do want it to kick in when required. For me the ideal situation would be the battery heater kicks in to overdrive when your final destination is beyond the current range of the car and an option to manually turn on the heater is available for those of us who don't need to use the inbuilt nav.

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

Don't worry, I scrubbed through them . That's what it's come to be known as, where the battery is severely limited due to being cold is now often referred to as coldgate. I agree, it's a completely normal effect, however, manufacturers can apply mitigation factors via a battery heaters. It's a difficult nut, you don't want to waste too much energy heating a battery if a high powered charge isn't needed, but at the same time you do want it to kick in when required. For me the ideal situation would be the battery heater kicks in to overdrive when your final destination is beyond the current range of the car and an option to manually turn on the heater is available for those of us who don't need to use the inbuilt nav.

It would appear that the ID.3 and, I assume (dangerous, I know ) that the ID.4 currently starts battery heating at the start of every trip, below about 8C. This leads to huge consumption figures for the first 10 minutes or so. But if your commute or regular run is only 10 minutes, the battery can be spent with very low total kms driven following a full charge.

Obviously, this is a problem and I hope VW address it before I get my ID.3, or shortly thereafter.

My current e-Niro lets the driver decide whether 'Winter Mode' is needed or not. I have never used it. I would be unlikely to use it in the VW either as I only rapid charge when on a long run, and the battery should be warm enough by the time I need a charge.

Having some level of control over the battery heater would be ideal.

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

Having some level of control over the battery heater would be ideal.

They really need to do that.

If you typically do alot of short journeys (shop, school, gym etc) and rarely rapid charge its a complete waste of energy to be heating the battery for that.

Tesla's method of enabling it when you navigate to a destination charger makes alot of sense since it will then also make sure that you can actually get to that charger.... giving over too much control to the average Joe public driver would probably result in alot of people ending up at the side of the road or lots of complaints on social media about how my 400km car can only do 150km!

liamog

KCross wrote: »

Tesla's method of enabling it when you navigate to a destination charger makes alot of sense since it will then also make sure that you can actually get to that charger.... giving over too much control to the average Joe public driver would probably result in alot of people ending up at the side of the road or lots of complaints on social media about how my 400km car can only do 150km!

Plus it encourages you to use the in-built monetisation navigation feature ...

Black_Knight

Silent Running wrote: »

Yes, but if the car started to charge at 29%, for example, it might have held 125kW for much of the charge. A single snapshot in time doesn't map out the full charge curve.

.

I don't follow you. You're using a hypothetical, whereas I'm going based off of what's been witnessed in the video (I've not watched it yet), and from the video the id4 charged at 55kW at 30%. Perhaps it was ramping up (again I've not watched the video), perhaps it was coldgating, or perhaps it throttles very quickly. I'd hope it's either cold gate or ramping up. If it's early throttling it's a sham, ala the ioniq38 charging speeds.

Silent Running

Black_Knight wrote: »

I don't follow you. You're using a hypothetical, whereas I'm going based off of what's been witnessed in the video (I've not watched it yet), and from the video the id4 charged at 55kW at 30%. Perhaps it was ramping up (again I've not watched the video), perhaps it was coldgating, or perhaps it throttles very quickly. I'd hope it's either cold gate or ramping up. If it's early throttling it's a sham, ala the ioniq38 charging speeds.

I refer my right honourable gentleman to my apology in a previous post. I was referring to a video Bjorn made very recently, where he started two charges at different SOCs and assumed the different charge rates were due to coldgate, despite the temperature being the same. I've no idea why I called that video up in my lockdown addled mind.

What's worse is that Bjorn showed the ID.3 battery charging at a woeful 35 Kw with a "battery" temp of 10 Deg C and that's more than possible in Ireland to get the battery to this temp and lower.

I think he said it preheats to 17 Deg C and that's it but when plugged in, probably like the i3, battery heating might only come on when plugged in and depart timer set x hrs in advance.

I had high hopes for the id.3/4 in Winter but this proves the EV manufacturers still haven't a clue, just give us the option to preheat the battery to enable max charge speed that's independent of any charging timers ffs how hard is this to get into the heads of engineers ?

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's worse is that Bjorn showed the ID.3 battery charging at a woeful 35 Kw with a "battery" temp of 10 Deg C and that's more than possible in Ireland to get the battery to this temp and lower.

Where did you see that?

The battery temp isn’t shown in the ID.3.

Note, if you do 200kms on the motorway and the outside temp is 5-10C you will get the full 100kW at the HPC... verified it myself!