The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505417#Comment_122505417

They want Dublin alone to be split into multiple teams.

They don't.

You do.

To benefit your own county, under the pretense that it helps everybody.

You are a hypocrite of the highest order.

You think Dublin winning 14 Leinsters in a row is a huge problem that has to be addressed by crippling your own county's biggest rival.

But you have no problem with Kerry winning 12 out of 14 in the same period. You then shift the goalposts every time to say that it's the funding that means they should be split. If that were true, you wouldn't have brought up the 14 in a row in the first place.

You have been having your cake and eating it forever, at this stage.

You've also been contradicting yourself forever at this stage.

The fact that you refused to say which county you were from, in an effort to appear like you've no dog in the fight, proves you are a spineless wind-up merchant.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505401#Comment_122505401

You consistently mix up causation and correlation.

Dublin for the last decade have had the greatest team to ever play the game of football, captained by the most decorated footballer in history and probably the best to ever play the game, who revolutionised the goalkeeping position.

As the same time there was funding for kids to play the game, kids of all types and sizes who never got to play the game before.

The two happened at the same time, but one didn't cause the other. This is seen and proven by the failure of Dublin hurlers to make the breakthrough together with the falling off of the men's football team as greats retired and were replaced with good players not quite in that bracket of greatness. Dublin won three U-21 All-Irelands in five years culminating in 2014, those players started playing the game long before the funding was increased and didn't benefit. In particular, the 2014 team contained quite a number of players - Mannion, McCaffrey, Fenton, Scully, Small, Byrne, O'Conghaile, Costello and Lowdnes - who won multiple senior all-Ireland medals and most of the others got a few years at senior as well. Kilkenny would have been there as well except for injury. That is probably the greatest U-21 team ever in terms of future success, but it was a freak.

Nothing to do with funding or finances, just an exceptional group of young players coming through. No amount of rubbish that you post will change that fact.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41364058.html

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122506944#Comment_122506944

There is still a county championship for football in Kilkenny as I understand. Plus the amount of money many counties put towards hurling, either within the county for an inter-county team that is competing in one of the lower-tier competition is fairly minimal- particularly in the context of inter-county teams where the likes of Dublin have vast, vast resources at their disposal. So the amount that Kilkenny are not committing to an inter-county team is fairly minimal relative to that. Yes there are discrepancies between counties on metrics but Dublin are always in a uniquely dominant position. Dublin didn't win 10 in a row, but they did win 6 in a row, have won 14 in a row in Leinster- all of this is unprecedented. So even if the worst predictions did not materialise, we have lived, and are still living through unprecedented times in football. If the domination was done fairly, as in Kilkenny's case, I wouldn't mind, but this hasn't been the case.

If, for instance, Kilkenny had a 1.5 million population, played almost all consequential games at home, received vastly more funding from the GAA, the Irish government and their sponsorship partners, I'd agree that they are unfairly advantaged. But this isn't the case, it only applies for another county.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507083#Comment_122507083

Many people do want Dublin to be split into multiple teams, that's pretty evident. Not just regular supporters, but also commentators with a large media presence like Colm O'Rourke. I always admitted I had a "dog in the fight"- I want the GAA to do what is best for all counties and address the unfairness prevalent in inter-county GAA at the moment by splitting Dublin. This helps all counties, from Dublin right down to Leitrim, as we've discussed before.

Dublin winning 14 Leinsters in a row is an issue because it's been done from an unfairly advantaged position. It's the success off this uniquely advantaged platform that people have a problem with. If they won 14 in a row fairly, I wouldn't mind (in fact, I'd be the first to congratulate them). So it's the success/unfairness combination that I have an issue with. Obviously Dublin should still be split even with reduced levels of success (as for the All-Ireland), but I do admit that the issue becomes more salient when success levels are high, as it kills interest in the sport. Supporters in Leinster can see that it's not a fair competition, and are voting with their feet.

Say there was a 100 metre sprint and one competitor got a 50 metre headstart. Even if they didn't win, they'd still be unfairly advantaged. But people would highlight it more if they won 14 competitions in a row. This is a good analogy for Dublin in Leinster- their unique combination of unfair advantages is always a problem for the GAA, but it's more pressing when their success kills interest in the sport. It's not possible to detail all of Dublin's unfair advantages, all the harm they do to the GAA and all the benefits that will come from splitting them in every single post- if I did, I'd be writing all day! Also, it's not just the funding that means they should be split, but also the other advantages such as population. It's the unique combination, nature, scale and duration of all these things.

And it's not about crippling anyone! It's about enhancing the prestige, integrity and fairness of inter-county football.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507372#Comment_122507372

Not at all, I've explained this for you before. Dublin had some great players for sure, but their success was greatly aided by their unfair advantages. That's why people were so critical of the GAA for allowing this situation during their success in the All-Ireland and during their ongoing success in the shambles that is the Leinster Championship.

I'm very happy for kids in Dublin to have been the beneficiaries of Games Development funding, as I want all counties to be helped. What people have an issue with is Dublin alone being favoured. They're no more deserving than kids in other counties. Then you factor in additional funding from the Irish government, sponsorship partners and it makes it even more unfair.

The Games Development funding absolutely helped the senior inter-county side- both in and itself, by helping to identify and develop players to their maximum potential, by increasing the standard of football within the county and by reducing the opportunity cost from other spending (meaning more money that could otherwise have been assigned to Games Development could instead be spent on other things, such as the senior inter-county side). Again, this is all good if done fairly and equitably with all counties, but that didn't happen- Dublin alone were favoured.

Dublin hurlers have seen a marked relative improvement, and development funding was really ramped up in the 2000s, so 2014 was not before that funding increased. Leinster is still an utter shambles, with no end in sight. Things haven't been resolved just because Dublin have managed to waste incredible advantages for 3 of the last 4 years.

So we see it had an awful lot to do with funding and finances. And other things like population and playing at home. No amount of rubbish you post will change those facts.

jack67

And the nonsense from this poster continues , dismisses everything from everyone , going on and on with his anti Dublin agenda.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509261#Comment_122509261

It is complete nonsense that you are spouting. The players that won U-21 All-Irelands from 2010 to 2014 started playing well before the Games Development Funding became available. They were just an exceptional freakish group of players at a level never seen before.

The Games Development Funding did not deliver senior footballers for Dublin. It started in 2007, so where are the five-year olds who started playing then? What the GDF did deliver was increased participation and more kids playing than ever, more girls than ever, more kids with disabilities than ever. That is what the money achieved and that is a really good outcome for the country.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509226#Comment_122509226

Many people do want Dublin to be split into multiple teams, that's pretty evident.

Not what you originally said. You said "supporters want…." as if it is widespread. You're changing the goalposts because you've been called out again. Many people want to have a few hours with Gráinne Seoige alone in the bedroom. Doesn't mean it's right or that it's gonna happen

Not just regular supporters, but also commentators with a large media presence like Colm O'Rourke.

Also not true. O'Rourke has said it, yes. Name two more commentators who've said it (with proof, please) or accept that you're gilding the lily to try to lend credence to your point which, otherwise, would have none.

I always admitted I had a "dog in the fight"-

Not true.

I want the GAA to do what is best for all counties and address the unfairness prevalent in inter-county GAA at the moment by splitting Dublin. This helps all counties, from Dublin right down to Leitrim, as we've discussed before.

Also not true. You don't want what's best for all counties, you want to split the best team in the land which just so happens to benefit your county the most. Splitting Dublin isn't best for Dublin. And it doesn't do anything for Leitrim. Anyone can go back and read through this thread and see for themselves. You claim that Dublin being weaker means that Leitrim would have performed better. You refused to outline which games they'd have performed better in or which years they'd have gone further in the competition. The strength of various Dublin teams over the past 20 years had zero impact on Leitrim's fortunes because they did not advance far enough to potentially meet Dublin. They were knocked out before they had the chance. You refuse to accept this fact (and it is a fact, no matter how much you insist otherwise) because it undermines the entire base of your argument.

Only twice in 150 years have Dublin had the possibility of playing New York. Dublin's relative strength would only have been an influence on those two games, had they occurred. A stronger or weaker Dublin means nothing to New York's chances because they would have been beaten by a different team anyway. Splitting Dublin does nothing for New York and all the other minnows who fail to make it out of their province every single year. This is fact. It shows how ridiculous your argument about helping everyone is, so you stand there, brazenly, trying to dispute this fact with a load of wishy-washy nonsense about prestige and integrity. They don't win games.

If they won 14 in a row fairly

They did.

Say there was a 100 metre sprint and one competitor got a 50 metre headstart.

WTF is this shite? How many games did Dublin start with scores already on the board? None? Okay, so you're talking out of your hole.

And it's not about crippling anyone! It's about enhancing the prestige, integrity and fairness of inter-county football.

More shite.

Deliberately making the best team in the competition worse so other's can catch up harms the prestige of the competition, not enhances it.

Deliberately making the best team in the competition worse so other's can catch up harms the integrity of the competition, not enhances it.

Deliberately making the best team in the competition worse so other's can catch up harms the fairness of the competition, not enhances it.

You are the master at making ridiculous statements with nothing to back them up. You proclaim these statements to be factual and true when they are nothing of the sort. You then either a) refuse to explore them in any detail, b) claim you already HAVE explained them in detail, referring people to your previous posts (without providing any assistance whatsoever) or c) shift the goalposts to something else.

You are the definition of a bad-faith poster. At one point last year, I asked you a question which you avoided answering. You were cherrypicking the bits and pieces of posts that you thought you had answers to, and replying to those parts. I called you out on refusing to answer questions by saying "see previous answers", and your response was "show me where I refused to answer a question". when shown, you replied "see previous answers".

You think Dublin's population advantage over Cork is evil, but refuse to accept Cork's advantage over Leitrim isn't.

You think splitting Dublin is a must, but are adverse to merging other counties.

You contradict yourself at every turn, because your entire position isn't a logical one. It is clouded by your petulance at no longer being the best team, plain and simple.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509456#Comment_122509456

This is complete nonsense. And I think you know it. You're trying to muddy the waters and pretend that Games Development funding only helped 5 year olds, when you know well it helped underage children older than that. And you ignored my points about the opportunity cost being reduced.

Here's funding from the Irish Sport Council in 2005 too. This is separate to the GAA money and sponsorship money. We see money assigned for Dublin alone. We see the time assigned is 2005, with reference to funding from 2001. We see it impacts children aged 11 and 12. So your argument is utterly demolished, from this one link alone, on the first page of Google. You've yet to explain why children in Dublin alone should be favoured too. I know you are partisan but put yourself in the shoes of someone like me who wants to help all counties- why not distribute funds more equitably across the country? Why favour Dublin alone, especially given the other advantages they have in funding, not to mention everything else?

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509632#Comment_122509632

Of course not everyone wants Dublin to be split into multiple teams. We can see that from this thread alone. Just like not everyone has a problem with the dour, negative style of play is now common, that Dublin introduced and perfected in the late 2010s. But the point holds that they are widespread opinions nonetheless. I'm happy for you to do your own research on other commentators who endorse Dublin being split- you don't get to decide that 3 is the number at which it becomes acceptable. We've proved that Colm O'Rourke endorses the position, and yes he is a mainstream commentator (not that this is even necessary for legitimacy, just making the point). So the opinion is out there. We saw funding etc being discussed on The Sunday Game, Prime Time even over the years. People just don't like Dublin alone being favoured.

I admitted I had a dog in the fight in the sense that I advocated something that helped all counties, as I repeatedly said. I make no bones about that, I want what is best for the GAA. So if I was from any county, I was helped by splitting Dublin, as the benefits are so widespread and so significant.

I don't see the need in re-litigating the Leitrim benefits. I proved conclusively, repeatedly, before that yes, splitting Dublin helps Leitrim. But briefly, as every county who participates in inter-county football is harmed by Dublin being uniquely unfairly advantaged, every county benefits from splitting Dublin and dispersing these unfair advantages among several teams, including Leitrim (and Dublin also). I can't point to specific games, scorelines etc, just as we can't point to how Dublin would have performed specifically without Cluxton- we just know they'd have performed worse. But we know interest and participation would increase in Leitrim, and they'd have been helped by a split of Dublin.

They didn't win 14 in a row fairly because they are uniquely unfairly advantaged. Even from the point of view of the final being in their home stadium, it's ridiculous. The sprinting analogy shows how a competitor can be unfairly advantaged even if they don't win every year- just as in Dublin's case.

As before, a split enhances the prestige, integrity and fairness as it diminishes Dublin's unfair advantages. Not perfect, and a solution I was reluctant to arrive at but sadly it is the best available to us. I have referred you to previous posts because I've answered your questions so many times already! The bad faith posting is you expecting me to educate you over and over again. Yes, I have been patient with you and yes, you probably have learned a lot, but there is only so many times I can lay out the facts before it becomes tiresome.

There are population discrepancies between all counties but as Dublin are such an extreme outlier, it is worse than between Cork and Leitrim. THe gap between Dublin and Cork is larger than the gap between Cork and Leitrim for instance- and Cork don't have all the other advantages that Dublin have either!

I'm open to voluntary amalgamations, but a split of Dublin should happen on a mandatory basis. This is because amalgamations don't address Dublin's unfair advantages, whereas a split of Dublin does.

So we see again the clear and obvious benefits to the GAA that come from splitting Dublin alone.

jack67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511110#Comment_122511110

Well once again more anti Dublin rubbish from this poster.

You ignore everyone's points , and you very well know it .

Kerry have been favoured for over 100 years

Kerry have destroyed Munster football

The once mighty and proud Kerry introduced and perfected dour football trying to compete with Dublin

It has failed

Kerry should be moved into Connaught or split in 2 , it would help Munster recover and it would also help Kerry .

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511110#Comment_122511110

The timeline for Games Development Funding is such that underage teams should have been getting BETTER from 2014 instead they got worse. The thing is, the money was never designed to produce, never produced and never will produce senior inter-county football players. There is no causal link, the timelines are off, your whole theory is nonsense.

rn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505401#Comment_122505401

Partly true in terms of how Leinster favours Dublin. But if Dublin were moved to connacht, connacht use home and away for all games, so that means Dublin would play 50% of their games outside Croke Park, including the provincial final.

Leinster need to move to same model. Get out of Croke Park - it's a national stadium for big games, too big for small provincial games

Charlo30

The reality is some posters want Dublin spilt and no amount counter arguments will change their minds. Other posters do not want Dublin spilt and similarly no amount of arguments will change their minds. And so the thread goes around in circles until it gets closed. Personally I don't think their is anything new to be added to the debate. In the short/medium Dublin will not be spilt. And if that day does come we're looking at bigger structural changes then Dublin. People need to be careful what they wish for.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505467#Comment_122505467

you see, ultimately a competitive All Ireland needs to address a much longer history of unfair advantages. The suppression of Munster football by an unfairly advantaged Kerry has killed the game in counties like Limerick who have had a tradition in football in the past. Correcting that injustice would be critical step to fixing football and creating an ALL Ireland. While rise of Dublin is welcome to address this at a national level by creating a viable challenger, who has greatly improved the standard of football in spite of the men behind’s the ball tactics pioneered by some counties. However something more radical is required to address Kerry’s advantages in a manner that gives hope to all counties

I’m thinking national level. While it’s touching you, as a Munster person, has a level of concern that the interest may be gone in Leinster, we do have an unfortunately larger historical precedent in Munster, with a longer and more egregious level of favouritism than you could ever accuse Dublin of receiving. How would you fix the Munster football championship so that Limerick can once again hope to complete for a football title? So that the utterly lopsided roll of honour in Munster can be corrected? Would you agree that fixing the unfair advantages Kerry have enjoyed and making Munster football competitive is a worthwhile endeavour?

you misunderstand me re stadia: I don’t want new stadia for Dublin, I want them for all of Leinster. Looking at capacity it’s clear that Leinster has been hugely and unfairly disadvantaged compared to say Munster here. Redeveloping and expanding existing stadia would alleviate the need to use Croke Park for any game with substantial fan demand and allow teams to play in a variety of venues. Croke Park would be available for big games and Dublin would be able to use their home stadium, Parnell Park properly. Kildare, Meath etc would also have a home stadium that could accommodate big matches, similar to what we see in Munster. It’s really strange for you, arguing for fairness in Leinster, to insist in the same breath that Leinster shouldn’t have an equitable approach in terms of stadia compared to Munster. What’s the basis for such discrimination, why shouldn’t Kildare for example have a stadium sufficient to host major crowds and remove their need to pitch for games to be played in Croker? It’s a win win- all Leinster teams, including Dublin, could have a proper, adequate home ground, with the special atmosphere of Croker reserved for marquee games.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511176#Comment_122511176

Now I know for a fact that you're on the wind-up.

Blocked.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511255#Comment_122511255

I see you are ignoring how you were badly caught out in your lie that the money only helped 5 year olds, and how the funding reduced the opportunity cost from other spending. You've also yet to explain why children in Dublin are more deserving that elsewhere?

Your argument here will only hold true if Games Development Funding was the only factor influencing Dublin's success. We've proved it was and is a big factor, but it's not the only one. Other factors that are also important include population. And sponsorship funding. And money from the Irish government. And playing all consequential games at home. So, yes, overfunding from the GAA unfairly helped Dublin alone but it's not the only way they alone are unfairly favoured by the GAA.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519951#Comment_122519951

I never said that children in Dublin are more deserving than elsewhere. In fact, the funding per child shows a very different story than the fiction you peddle.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122513138#Comment_122513138

I think people who don't want Dublin to be split can be persuaded though. As it's obvious to anyone with an open mind who views things in an unbiased way that yes, Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged. Perhaps they can dispute the way a split should be done, should it be 4 ways, should it be 6 ways etc, but not that Dublin don't have unfair advantages.

Beyond that though, while some points made are repetitive, different people are exposed to them so we constantly have new people being exposed to the reality of Dublin's unfair advantages, which is important for the GAA.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517209#Comment_122517209

I definitely agree that a competitive All-Ireland needs to address a much longer history of unfair advantages. Unfortunately this again means that Dublin alone should be split as they are the only team historically unfairly advantaged. Population alone was always a reason for Dublin to be split, as they are such an outlier there. It has become worse over the years as there population has grown, the funding kicked in, they were allowed to start playing NFL games in Croke Park but there can be no doubt that Dublin always were unfairly advantaged vs everyone else.

As I've explained before, success alone is not a problem, as in Kilkenny's case. Whereas competing from an unfairly advantaged position is a big problem, win or lose- as in Dublin's case. So no other county or province needs corrective action as no other county has the unique combination, nature, scale and duration of unfair advantages that Dublin do. Yes, there are discrepanies between counties in say population, but nothing like with Dublin. So while Provincials should probably be scrapped regardless, the reforms I'm proposing will help all provinces if they do continue to exist, as is likely. The first thing to do with Provincials would be to place them in their wider context of all inter-county GAA. Then we would see again the need to split Dublin to help all counties. Funding from all sources should be equalised too, but the first, most important and beneficial step for any GAA reforms is to split Dublin.

Apologies on the stadia, I did misunderstand you, I thought you meant for Dublin alone. While this proposal isn't as bad, I wouldn't be in favour of it still. Leinster has become an absolute shambles, interest and competition is rapidly dying as Dublin continue to win off of their platform of unfair advantages. It's beyond a joke by this stage, it's by far the worst provincial competition nowadays. So building new stadia won't help- interest will continue to dwindle without Dublin being split so there won't be any "substantial fan demand"! They'd still be empty as there wouldn't be the supporters to fill them. Far better to dedicate our energies and money to more productive areas, like splitting Dublin before we undertake any other reforms. Perhaps after that we could look at new stadia, but not before. Dublin already have a home ground, built for them by the GAA, another way they have been favoured, so they definitely don't need a new one.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519959#Comment_122519959

Sadly, it doesn't. And in my view, children in Dublin are only as deserving as those everywhere else, not more deserving.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122518588#Comment_122518588

The standard 21st Century approach when someone has lost an argument! I'm not on the wind-up- I appreciate you are partisan so it may be hard for you to empathise with someone who truly has a neutral and unbiased view but I genuinely just want what is best for the GAA.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520003#Comment_122520003

This was done to death very early in this thread, and the arguments were put to bed. Funding per capita (under-18) in Dublin is not significantly different to the rest of the country.

jack67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519960#Comment_122519960

Again more nonsense from this poster

People who don't want Dublin split, Don't want Dublin split end of. Its not going to happen anyway

Kerry are unfairly advantaged in Munster for over 100 years ,they should be split or put into Connaught

This way Munster will recover in time and Kerry would also benefit from this and hopefully they would stop playing the dour football they started after 2011 and perfected over the last 13 years trying to prevent Dublin winning 6 in a row.

jack67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519951#Comment_122519951

I see you are ignoring Kerry being advantaged in Munster for over 100 years .

I see you are ignoring the damage Kerry has done to Munster over the last 100 years

The only solution is to split Kerry or send them to Connaught .

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520013#Comment_122520013

Pure nonsense , you are 100% not neutral and are 100% biased. You don't want what's best for the GAA. You want what's best for Kerry by weakening Dublin . I agree with a lot of posters here , Munster is a basket case , and its all due to 100 years of unfair Advantages Kerry have received . I would like to see Kerry split it would be good for Munster and Kerry also . At first Kerry supporters would not be happy , but in time they would realise how it makes Munster more competitive and would get behind this new rivalry North v South Kerry .

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520397#Comment_122520397

Why stop at North and South Kerry.

Kerry already has regional divisions, which have an identity of their own within GAA. That isn't anywhere else. Split Kerry into East Kerry, Mid Kerry, North Kerry, South Kerry and West Kerry, the main GAA divisions within Kerry, that already have fan support and reognition. If that works out over a decade or so, then split other counties and merge other counties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_GAA

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520013#Comment_122520013

so you’re ok with splitting Kerry then?

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520441#Comment_122520441

Do you know what , that makes a lot of sense , fair play to you excellent suggestion 👍

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520824#Comment_122520824

Of course it makes sense. Kerry have had over a century of unfair domination of GAA Football and nobody has done anything about it. Address that long-standing imbalance first, and everything else falls into place.

The regions within Kerry already exist, they have local followings in the county championship there. Taking that to a Munster Championship arena would be a win-win for all involved. All those great players in Kerry who can't get near the county team would get their chance. Supporters would be excited to see their divisional team playing more games.