The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039127#Comment_122039127

Ok. I wouldn't think that a county should share around their sponsorship money. If a county has the traction to get a sponsor on board, and makes the effort for fundraising, then that's their own business. The only negative I have on the topic of this thread is the large funding given to Dublin 18/19 years ago, without any basis for it, other than Bertie/Government didn't like that Dublin were not winning anything. And notwithstanding that Dublin have been largely dominant for the past 13 years, nothing has been done to try to level the playing field.

I live in Dublin, and go to many of their matches with the kids. Have huge respect for the Dublin players. Great role-models. Great determination, and generally play good football. But as per the above point that I made, it just slightly grates at me when I read about their great achievements. But I am old enough to realise that there is also an element of begrudgery and jealousy in those feelings. If it was my own county, I wouldn't care if we were labelled the Man City of GAA, if it meant All-Ireland after All-Ireland. It's all human nature I guess. I don't think Dublin GAA should be split to have 2 or more teams. That would not work.

Yeah Right

Apologies, flasher, I didn't mean to insinuate that was how you see things, so if you took me up incorrectly then I'm sorry. It was more to explain the sponsorship nonsense being put forward by others with an axe to grind.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039362#Comment_122039362

Oh I know. I got that. Let's hug it out.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038206#Comment_122038206

no offence, but I mentor in my own club for a kids team. It’s a big club by numbers. I can tell you the following for sure, which I suspect is true for most clubs around the country to be fair:

the bibs and cones are out because the mentors got their arses down early to put them out

there’s lots of footballs and sliotars because the club does a pile of fund raising. Even then there are times someone puts their hand in their own pocket to arrange something for the kids

we have a GPO for sure- with the size of the club they don’t spend their day giving us personalised coaching sessions. Pretty much all of the training the kids get is given by mentors whose own knowledge is based on giving up their time to go to sessions the club arranges with coaches from other teams or areas.

there are a pile of the kids who won’t ever play at top level and in some cases won’t ever want to. Every one of them gets the same time and opportunity regardless.

Often we’re shoehorned in to a small sliver of the pitch trying to find ways to work on skills in limited space. Yes the facilities have improved over the years but the demand on them has increased massively.

None of the mentors are getting a penny for this- most of us were roped in when the kids were starting out and have stuck around.

by the way I’m not the one you need to ask about Kerry group and Staycity since I’m not the poster who made an issue originally about sponsorship.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038843#Comment_122038843

once again you take to deliberate misrepresentation

by the way, still waiting on your proposals on how to deal with Kerry’s long history of unfair advantages

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039010#Comment_122039010

I meant per registered GAA player in the county; member may have been a better word to use. The point I'm making is that by any metric, whether it's funding per member, or funding per head of population or anything, Dublin have received a disproportionate amount of the funding- and this ignores that Dublin's population is already an insane advantage, and we are only talking about Games Development funding, and not other sources of funding which are equally relevant!

That article is blocked for me as not a subscriber, I can see a glimpse of what you are claiming though. This actually doesn't tally with previous figures, with Dublin more over-represented. Granted, the funding has equalised somewhat over the last 5 years due to outcry but sadly the damage had been done by this stage. And as above, it doesn't account for other sources of funding.

(One last thing is that in a GAA context, Dublin are not 30% of the population, as the North has to be included. Even if we rightfully exempt the Unionist population, they are close to 25%).

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039127#Comment_122039127

I think funding from all sources from all counties should be equalised. Yes, the argument could be made that given Dublin's decades of advantages and overfunding they alone should be target for a reduction to begin with, I don't agree with it. Let's wipe the slate clean, split Dublin and come to a more equitable funding model. I've always claimed this, for all counties, so not sure where the hypocrisy is? It's an amateur organisation with an amateur ethos- we need to be fairer to everyone to aid the long term viability of the sport.

Dublin get additional sponsorship mostly because of their population, again showing what an advantage it is, both on and off the pitch. And then take these population and funding advantages together, make them of enormous scale and line them up over decades and we see what an issue the GAA has created for itself.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039179#Comment_122039179

Read my previous posts on this where I spell out my argument. I agree he didn't say it explicitly. But attributing Dublin's success to coaching, and saying funding was irrelevant, is just grossly inaccurate as I said. And with respect, you tell me I was mistaken doesn't mean a whole lot- you've been proved wrong repeatedly over the course of this discussion. Granted Tombo2001 is a relative latecomer and seems more reasonable, such as by admitting the population advantage, so I would be inclined to cut him more slack. So unfortunately I can't admit I was wrong because it wouldn't be true- that would really be wrong!

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039569#Comment_122039569

Why are you only saying this now?

Have you ever posted about this communal sharing of sponsorship money at a time when Dublin weren't generating the lion's share of the funds?

If you have, then show me. If you haven't, then you're a hypocrite.

Simple as.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039574#Comment_122039574

You keep saying he didn't say it explicitly.

What does that mean. Are you implying that is what he actually meant?

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039507#Comment_122039507

No county other than Dublin are unfairly advantaged so there is nothing to respond to. And there is no misrepresentation- Dublin alone are uniquely unfairly advantaged. Again, these advantages come in the form of population, funding and playing at home. They should be split to help address these. That's my proposal to help all counties. I am glad you accepted that funding is an advantage- when you see the scale of Dublin's figures vs everyone else you will really get mad!

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039577#Comment_122039577

I've said this numerous times, on this forum. My post history only goes back to 2011 so I won't be able to find evidence from before then, but there is some from years ago. Sadly, even by 2011, Dublin had been grossly overfunded for years relative to everyone else so the stipulation you are adding (re: the lion's share of the funds) will have been true for that entire 2011-present time.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039589#Comment_122039589

I'm saying he didn't say "volunteers are why we won, not funding" but his post talked at length about coaches and said funding was irrelevant. Have a read back over our exchanges, it'll be clear what both he and I said.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039606#Comment_122039606

So you never said it before Dublin were the big dogs in terms of sponsorship money. And you're only saying it now because you want a slice of the action. So you're a hypocrite.

Mod Edit

Warning issued.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039612#Comment_122039612

I know what he said. And I know what you are inferring he said, which he didn't.

It has been clarified for you multiple times now and you are still insinuating that's what he meant.

You're a disgrace and I hope everyone else can now see through your BS.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039574#Comment_122039574

I assume you’d concede that Kerry’s funding advantages over the years in Munster is also not irrelevant so?

ie, they’re not “just good”

Ie they have benefitted from unfair advantages due to their financial muscle for example?

Billy_the_Kid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039557#Comment_122039557

The metric used for games development funding was the non playing population of kids. The funding was always to get more kids playing in the capital who never played GAA (which is most kids in Dublin) and nothing to do with adult or elite level coaching despite the nonsense posted here.

The funding back in the 00s was given due to two big concerns the GAA had for Gaelic games in Dublin - the emergence of a professional Leinster rugby team and Shamrock Rovers move into Tallaght. The fear was the GAA would be wiped out in south Dublin and Tallaght. To be fair to the GAA their prediction was fairly accurate - Leinster rugby sold out Croke Park in less than 24hrs today for a match and Shamrock Rovers are now the dominate sports team in the Tallaght area. The GAA is behind and losing ground all over South Dublin, there are a few strong clubs on the outskirts - Crokes & Boden and BSJ who are developing but outside of that GAA is struggling badly. The Dublin 6 in row team was a freak generation and will be all gone soon enough and Dublins dominance will be over. So many bizarre theories and red herrings on this thread but very entertaining stuff.

tritium

Dublin get sponsorship for the same reason Kerry do. They’re a marquee brand that’s useful to be associated with. Dublin have also been very astute in trying to maximise that channel (as indeed have Kerry). If population was the key the Indian national soccer team would be fighting off sponsors

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039557#Comment_122039557

Yeah thats fair enough, but my point would be 25% isnt that far out from 30% - its not vastly disproportionate.

I'd be interested to see the figures you are referring to (but not interested enough to scroll through 300 pages of this thread).

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039676#Comment_122039676

Yes, I'd second that - heaps of underage GAA teams in SoCoDu collapse at u14/u15 level when the boys get into school rugby teams in the fee paying segment. They are not allowed to both.

I would say also - as a spectator sport, the League of Ireland has really taken off. Bohs, Pats and Shels are always sold out. The atmosphere at the games is rocking. Meanwhile, the Dubs are in a handful games each year, and most of these are in a half empty Croke Park. Actually, the club games between Kilmacud and Na Fianna or whatever would be much closer to what League of Ireland offers. Of course you could say the same for maybe Sligo or Dundalk.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039676#Comment_122039676

What a lot of people forget about Dublins big population is that it gives a critical mass to other clubs both sporting and non sporting that competes with the GAA for the same people. In Dublin people have options that just don't exist the rest of the country. In more rural areas the GAA is the only sporting/social outlet(something the GAA should be celebrated for providing). In Dublin the GAA is just one of many.

The fact is if clubs are not run well in Dublin there are countless other clubs in different organisations who will gladly welcome those same people. Again very different from rural areas where the GAA is the only option and don't need to be as well run to retain members.

The other big issue in Dublin for all sports and not just the GAA is playing pitches. You have very limited space and face the highest land costs in the country. It's something all sports clubs in Dublin have to face. It's also space the GAA has to both compete for and share. Dublin is an expensive place for any capital infrastructure for any organisation.

Dublin with it's population should always be competitive but that's only if it's well run. Look at Meath, Kildare and Wicklow and look at their current performances. Parts of those counties are part of Dublin city itself for all practical purposes. It's a sign that high population is no guarantee of success.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038673#Comment_122038673

Indeed super Bertie 😂

munster87

Reading this thread, and all the marvellous evidence, I now feel that Dublin are extremely under privileged in comparison to other counties and should somehow be doubled rather than split. 🤣

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040309#Comment_122040309

Ah god no , we are happy the way we are thanks 😂🤣

TsuDhoNimh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039791#Comment_122039791

"In Dublin people have options that just don't exist the rest of the country."

Such as?

As someone that grew up in Mayo I watched friends/local rivals go away from GAA teams to focus on (attempting) either professional or international level competition in sports across soccer, rugby, athletics, swimming, basketball, boxing, taekwondo, one lad becoming a jockey (tiny corner forward, likely never would have made it in GAA anyway, bless him), one playing Australian rules, archery, tennis and one (that possibly took a few too many blows to the head) trampolining… I'd love to know what activities we were missing out on?

(The only ones that come to mind is anything involving an ice rink or potentially we wouldn't have had proper climbing walls…. neither I'd expect related to sports putting a serious drain on potential GAA players)

Given such limited potential playing number pools I'd well imagine the competition between codes/sports is every bit as fierce, if not fiercer, in the smaller population centres. Losing a relatively small number of kids can be the difference between a more rural side being viable and requiring an amalgamation to go on functioning, in any & all of the team sports mentioned.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040905#Comment_122040905

My post was in general terms. But as a person who grew up in a rural village the GAA was your only local option for sport. You'd need to head to the next big town 20/30 minutes odd down the road for an alternative sport/activity. Dublin is very very different within 30 minutes you have vastly more options without even touching a car. The GAAs rural infrastructure is unmatched by any organisation in the country bar potentially the Catholic church. It's a huge tribute to the GAA.

The thing about Dublins population is that it gives a critical mass to smaller organisations both sporting and non sporting. To run different clubs especially at underage for certain niches you need a very big population which Dublin has. Remember for an sport/activity to be viable you need a certain amount of people. More population more viable activities more competition.

The amount of people who are actively involved in the GAA in Dublin is less compared per capita compared to the rest of the country(can't remember the exact data source for that point). The GAA invested hugely in Dublin as a result but even with that investment less people are involved per capita compared to the rest of the country. It's not exactly new as well, the GAA have always been weaker in more urban areas. A lot of that relative weakness is just the greater competition in urban areas.

That's all before talking about playing pitches and land/building costs in general. Which is a massive issue for all sports. It's an issue not faced to the same extent in any other parts of the country.

Dublins huge population obviously gives the county a big help but that population also comes with downsides which are often ignored/not appreciated.

TsuDhoNimh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041541#Comment_122041541

Your post was in general terms, but the things you're stating as fact are generally and objectively untrue.

A quick look at the birthplaces of Ireland's soccer team or current professional players, our current or past Olympic qualified athletes, our current or past Sport Ireland funded athletes, current (I'd assume past too but can't say that for sure) University sport scholarship students, our professional or competitive amateur boxers, our professional or competitive amateur golfers all show counties outside of Dublin performing incredibly in those sports. I'm not familiar enough with rugby to know where that stands, Dublin could well be well above the average rates per capita there.

Raising the fact that it's potentially slightly easier (for some, wouldn't know for sure if it's a majority or not as the only club I played with in Dublin during my time there was within walking distance for 99% of the lads playing) in Dublin without the need for a car is certainly a valid point. I'd be all for making sporting grants available to counties to compensate the poor parents, players and coaches who have to go out of their way on time & expense to keep all these players playing. Be that GAA or any other sport.

You'd have a very legitimate point if you were suggesting rural sports & sports clubs are having a much more difficult time than urban clubs in the current conditions of internal migration and urbanisation (from smaller towns like Claremorris gaining massively compared to rural neighbours right up to cities like Cork or Dublin). That's perfectly valid. However, suggesting Dublin is the only county where players have the option of other sports is laughably and demonstrably untrue.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042464#Comment_122042464

I'm not suggesting that Dublin is the only place where people have other options. That's a complete and utter strawman. What I'm saying is that in Dublin you have more options compared to places with lower population levels.

The wider point I'm making is that Dublins big population does not guarantee success. That huge population comes with problems.

The fact that the League of Ireland is still heavily focused on Dublin is a perfect example. Many counties have no LOI clubs never mind the numbers in Dublin city alone. The rugby academies/private schools are another example. I'm just picking the GAAs two most high profile competitors. I know of other sports where the biggest clubs all reside in Dublin and tend to dominate in national competitions at a club level even if not on an individual level.

There is this simplistic notion that Dublins large population guarantees success. That's what I'm challenging. It doesn't. It's an obvious help but again that large population and population density brings challenges to the GAA that no other county faces to remotely the same extent. Other counties don't have the same population density as Dublin and the challenges that comes with that.

The other big problem Dublin has is land. In Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Co there is so little land available(partly due to the Wicklow mountains) they have effectively planned out the amount of land available for sports clubs for the 100 odd years based on a person I know who works there. If you've been paying attention to the news you'll see certain sports clubs in Dublin 8 will have to wait until 2027 for sports pitches. Again something unimaginable to most places in Ireland. The challenge in Dublin and not just for the GAA is the ability to obtain access to enough facilities to cater for the demand organisations face.

A lot of money is spent on Dublin GAA but Dublin is an expensive place relative to the rest of the country to do business. The GAA is no exception.

To bring back to my main point a lot of people look at Dublins population and money and look at it very simplistically. Yes Dublins population and overall revenue is very helpful but they are not the be all and end all. Beneath the surface of these attention grabbing headlines though things are a lot more nuanced.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039615#Comment_122039615

Not at all, that's a complete misrepresentation on your part, again. The projection is strong with you I've noticed (which is a bit worrying given some of the things you say!)

What I'm saying is I have always wanted all money, sponsorship and otherwise, to be equitably distributed. Even if Dublin weren't unfairly advantaged like they are at present, I'd want that. Yes, I want to help all counties, but I do admit wanting to help the smaller, less advantaged counties more. Sharing money in a more fair way would help them all- but would ultimately help all counties, just as splitting Dublin would.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039618#Comment_122039618

I'm not "insinuating" anything, I come out and state my views plainly- have a read of my previous posts to see what I actually said. Things should be clarified then. One thing we can say for sure though- the money Dublin alone were uniquely favoured to receive was definitely a factor in their recent success. Not the only factor, no (population advantaged probably being at least as important for instance), but an important one. A very important one.