Dublin should be split, if that helps certain other counties then so what?
The issue here is , a few posters on here want Dublin split to help there own Counties
The issue is not directly Dublin getting funding, there are a lot of kids in Dublin that the GAA should try and attract. However, this desirable spending on the grass roots should not be allowed distort national competitions by having a county with the population of a province and clubs with the population of a county.
It's a fund that was set up for Underage Coaching & Development funding (originally exclusively for Dublin but then expanded to be a national scheme), so you'd expect some potential outliers in smaller counties where they might have been well behind the curve on Game Development Officers (which is what +90% of the funding goes towards paying). Especially in the case of this fund where it requires matching funding from the clubs, you'd expect the odd quirk in numbers at the lower populations if and when they get into a position to invest themselves. Slightly more interesting & relevant would to be a look at the other end of the scale, the more competitive counties.
CSO '22 Pop
07-23 Game Dev Funding
€ Per Capita
% Per Capita
€ Per Youth Team
% Per Youth Team
Dublin
1,458,154
€21,837,562.00
€14.98
100.00%
€860.06
Kerry
156,458
€1,549,457.00
€9.90
66.13%
€336.55
39.13%
Mayo
137,231
€1,109,474.00
€8.08
53.98%
€193.64
22.51%
Derry*
252,231
€1,908,341.00
€7.57
50.52%
€536.73
62.41%
Donegal
167,084
€1,164,467.00
€6.97
46.54%
€477.88
55.56%
Galway
276,451
€1,545,933.00
€5.59
37.34%
€171.91
19.99%
Tyrone*
188,383
€999,189.00
€5.30
35.42%
€282.36
32.83%
(Borrowed a few extra numbers on the Youth Clubs from one of Sean's articles around the original release of the data to give a little more context - https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/gaa/gaa-needs-to-sort-money-matters-for-clubs-in-all-counties/644831654.html - might be interesting to see it compared on something like Registered Club Players or (Underage) Playing Age Population, though I'm not aware of numbers that detailed being around easily to grab)
Taking the top 7 ranked teams from this years national league, you can see that both the per capita and per youth team figure for Dublin stands out. By a minimum of 30% more in each case and closer to 100% more looking as an average. Now, great big huge caveats on all of that.
Game Development Funding is one (sizable) piece of the funding jigsaw but given that it does require the matching funding from the clubs involved it isn't one where smaller counties (and by that I do include everyone bar Dublin) will tend to shine. There are other GAA schemes that could be helping close the gaps there quite significantly. I'm not sure if I've ever seen any other funding numbers shared, beyond Sean releasing these last year, but I'm sure there's probably some around somewhere if anyone had the urge to really dive into it.
These historical numbers are slightly irrelevant to discuss too, given they've already changed the funding model to reduce the discrepancies between top and everyone else. Vague memories of seeing a report since suggesting it didn't close the gap nearly as much as they'd originally hoped… but not a topic they're going to be coming to Boards for further input on tweaks so not one I'm personally going to get into any real depth on beyond the curiosity glance above.
https://www.the42.ie/dublin-funding-cut-new-model-gaa-5680361-Feb2022/
These are the same figures I quoted - the split was Dublin getting 30%, not 33% as far as I remember.
If you are going on these figures - I know its a matter of opinion - but the amount Dublin has received is slightly disproportionate, not massively so. Particularly as the NI counties have received low amounts so that skews all the ROI numbers upwards.
There much bigger quirks than the Dublin figure, e.g. Carlow population 60,000 getting more or less the same as Galway population 277'000.
For context - Carlow is getting 50% more per Capita than Dublin based on these numbers.
As for a 'terribly unfair state of affairs'….. I guess these things are in the eye of the beholder, but I dont see it in these numbers.
Sure thing- here is a link from a quick google. It's a photo but of a newspaper report so should be reliable. The figures themselves don't seem to be contested by anyone:
We see here that Dublin get slightly under 33% of the total funding, even though they only account for ~25% of the population when Northern Ireland excluding Unionists are accounted for. Factor that in with the money from the government, and their sponsors, and that population advantage alone is grounds for a split and not additional funding! So we see again what a terribly unfair state of affairs the GAA has allowed to develop, all to the sole advantage of Dublin over everyone else. One thing to bear in mind is that this thread has been going on for some time. Every so often someone comes in demanding the figures be re-issued so it's understandable why it's often preferable and fair to just direct them to do their own searches as the figures have been provided so many times in the past.
Can I ask what figures you are referring to when making this argument?
Not asking you to refer to, or explain what figures. Not asking if they can be easily found through google or scrolling through this thread - I am asking actually what figures? Have you a link, or can you quote the numbers?
But even by that metric Dublin were and are unfairly advantaged. On Games Development alone, never mind taking on board government money, sponsorship money etc. I want Games Development money to be spent on kids in Dublin, absolutely, I want the GAA to flourish in Dublin. But not flourish in Dublin alone, at the expense of or instead of all other counties. Yes, there is competition from sports in Dublin, just as there is in all counties. And Dublin winning from an unfairly advantaged position is harming the game in all counties- just look at the once-great Leinster Championship to see the harm it is doing! If Dublin were competing fairly I wouldn't mind but sadly this is not the case. Population alone is grounds for a split by the way, as Dublin are such an outlier. The "Golden Generation" point has been thoroughly debunked by this stage. People used to say 10+ years ago when Paul Flynn is gone, when the Brogans are gone etc, Dublin will fall off. This won't happen though- Dublin will always have a conveyor belt of oustanding talent. Population will given them the raw numbers, funding will help identify and develop them and playing at home will help them eke out close games. That's why Dublin should be split, as the playing field is not level.
As I've said before, there are discrepancies between counties in terms of population, funding etc. These exist. Funding in particular should be centrally pooled and distributed far more equitably than it is at present. But all discrepancies between non-Dublin counties are negligible compared to the discrepancies between Dublin and everyone else. And then Dublin have all these advantages in combination. In Dublin's case, it is the unique nature, combination, scale and duration of advantages that they enjoy in population, funding, playing at home etc. that is an issue. So I will concede that as Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged and that they alone should be split. I am glad you are honing in on funding though! It is obvious to you then how Dublin again are unfairly advantaged there vs everyone else (taking on board Games Development funding, sponsorship funding, Irish government funding etc). i.e. they're not "just good". Dublin are good, but they are also uniquely advantaged over everyone else.
I'm not "insinuating" anything, I come out and state my views plainly- have a read of my previous posts to see what I actually said. Things should be clarified then. One thing we can say for sure though- the money Dublin alone were uniquely favoured to receive was definitely a factor in their recent success. Not the only factor, no (population advantaged probably being at least as important for instance), but an important one. A very important one.
Not at all, that's a complete misrepresentation on your part, again. The projection is strong with you I've noticed (which is a bit worrying given some of the things you say!) What I'm saying is I have always wanted all money, sponsorship and otherwise, to be equitably distributed. Even if Dublin weren't unfairly advantaged like they are at present, I'd want that. Yes, I want to help all counties, but I do admit wanting to help the smaller, less advantaged counties more. Sharing money in a more fair way would help them all- but would ultimately help all counties, just as splitting Dublin would.
I'm not suggesting that Dublin is the only place where people have other options. That's a complete and utter strawman. What I'm saying is that in Dublin you have more options compared to places with lower population levels.
The wider point I'm making is that Dublins big population does not guarantee success. That huge population comes with problems.
The fact that the League of Ireland is still heavily focused on Dublin is a perfect example. Many counties have no LOI clubs never mind the numbers in Dublin city alone. The rugby academies/private schools are another example. I'm just picking the GAAs two most high profile competitors. I know of other sports where the biggest clubs all reside in Dublin and tend to dominate in national competitions at a club level even if not on an individual level.
There is this simplistic notion that Dublins large population guarantees success. That's what I'm challenging. It doesn't. It's an obvious help but again that large population and population density brings challenges to the GAA that no other county faces to remotely the same extent. Other counties don't have the same population density as Dublin and the challenges that comes with that.
The other big problem Dublin has is land. In Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Co there is so little land available(partly due to the Wicklow mountains) they have effectively planned out the amount of land available for sports clubs for the 100 odd years based on a person I know who works there. If you've been paying attention to the news you'll see certain sports clubs in Dublin 8 will have to wait until 2027 for sports pitches. Again something unimaginable to most places in Ireland. The challenge in Dublin and not just for the GAA is the ability to obtain access to enough facilities to cater for the demand organisations face.
A lot of money is spent on Dublin GAA but Dublin is an expensive place relative to the rest of the country to do business. The GAA is no exception.
To bring back to my main point a lot of people look at Dublins population and money and look at it very simplistically. Yes Dublins population and overall revenue is very helpful but they are not the be all and end all. Beneath the surface of these attention grabbing headlines though things are a lot more nuanced.
Your post was in general terms, but the things you're stating as fact are generally and objectively untrue. A quick look at the birthplaces of Ireland's soccer team or current professional players, our current or past Olympic qualified athletes, our current or past Sport Ireland funded athletes, current (I'd assume past too but can't say that for sure) University sport scholarship students, our professional or competitive amateur boxers, our professional or competitive amateur golfers all show counties outside of Dublin performing incredibly in those sports. I'm not familiar enough with rugby to know where that stands, Dublin could well be well above the average rates per capita there. Raising the fact that it's potentially slightly easier (for some, wouldn't know for sure if it's a majority or not as the only club I played with in Dublin during my time there was within walking distance for 99% of the lads playing) in Dublin without the need for a car is certainly a valid point. I'd be all for making sporting grants available to counties to compensate the poor parents, players and coaches who have to go out of their way on time & expense to keep all these players playing. Be that GAA or any other sport. You'd have a very legitimate point if you were suggesting rural sports & sports clubs are having a much more difficult time than urban clubs in the current conditions of internal migration and urbanisation (from smaller towns like Claremorris gaining massively compared to rural neighbours right up to cities like Cork or Dublin). That's perfectly valid. However, suggesting Dublin is the only county where players have the option of other sports is laughably and demonstrably untrue.
My post was in general terms. But as a person who grew up in a rural village the GAA was your only local option for sport. You'd need to head to the next big town 20/30 minutes odd down the road for an alternative sport/activity. Dublin is very very different within 30 minutes you have vastly more options without even touching a car. The GAAs rural infrastructure is unmatched by any organisation in the country bar potentially the Catholic church. It's a huge tribute to the GAA.
The thing about Dublins population is that it gives a critical mass to smaller organisations both sporting and non sporting. To run different clubs especially at underage for certain niches you need a very big population which Dublin has. Remember for an sport/activity to be viable you need a certain amount of people. More population more viable activities more competition.
The amount of people who are actively involved in the GAA in Dublin is less compared per capita compared to the rest of the country(can't remember the exact data source for that point). The GAA invested hugely in Dublin as a result but even with that investment less people are involved per capita compared to the rest of the country. It's not exactly new as well, the GAA have always been weaker in more urban areas. A lot of that relative weakness is just the greater competition in urban areas.
That's all before talking about playing pitches and land/building costs in general. Which is a massive issue for all sports. It's an issue not faced to the same extent in any other parts of the country.
Dublins huge population obviously gives the county a big help but that population also comes with downsides which are often ignored/not appreciated.
"In Dublin people have options that just don't exist the rest of the country." Such as? As someone that grew up in Mayo I watched friends/local rivals go away from GAA teams to focus on (attempting) either professional or international level competition in sports across soccer, rugby, athletics, swimming, basketball, boxing, taekwondo, one lad becoming a jockey (tiny corner forward, likely never would have made it in GAA anyway, bless him), one playing Australian rules, archery, tennis and one (that possibly took a few too many blows to the head) trampolining… I'd love to know what activities we were missing out on? (The only ones that come to mind is anything involving an ice rink or potentially we wouldn't have had proper climbing walls…. neither I'd expect related to sports putting a serious drain on potential GAA players) Given such limited potential playing number pools I'd well imagine the competition between codes/sports is every bit as fierce, if not fiercer, in the smaller population centres. Losing a relatively small number of kids can be the difference between a more rural side being viable and requiring an amalgamation to go on functioning, in any & all of the team sports mentioned.
Ah god no , we are happy the way we are thanks 😂🤣
Reading this thread, and all the marvellous evidence, I now feel that Dublin are extremely under privileged in comparison to other counties and should somehow be doubled rather than split. 🤣
Indeed super Bertie 😂
What a lot of people forget about Dublins big population is that it gives a critical mass to other clubs both sporting and non sporting that competes with the GAA for the same people. In Dublin people have options that just don't exist the rest of the country. In more rural areas the GAA is the only sporting/social outlet(something the GAA should be celebrated for providing). In Dublin the GAA is just one of many.
The fact is if clubs are not run well in Dublin there are countless other clubs in different organisations who will gladly welcome those same people. Again very different from rural areas where the GAA is the only option and don't need to be as well run to retain members.
The other big issue in Dublin for all sports and not just the GAA is playing pitches. You have very limited space and face the highest land costs in the country. It's something all sports clubs in Dublin have to face. It's also space the GAA has to both compete for and share. Dublin is an expensive place for any capital infrastructure for any organisation.
Dublin with it's population should always be competitive but that's only if it's well run. Look at Meath, Kildare and Wicklow and look at their current performances. Parts of those counties are part of Dublin city itself for all practical purposes. It's a sign that high population is no guarantee of success.
Yes, I'd second that - heaps of underage GAA teams in SoCoDu collapse at u14/u15 level when the boys get into school rugby teams in the fee paying segment. They are not allowed to both.
I would say also - as a spectator sport, the League of Ireland has really taken off. Bohs, Pats and Shels are always sold out. The atmosphere at the games is rocking. Meanwhile, the Dubs are in a handful games each year, and most of these are in a half empty Croke Park. Actually, the club games between Kilmacud and Na Fianna or whatever would be much closer to what League of Ireland offers. Of course you could say the same for maybe Sligo or Dundalk.
Yeah thats fair enough, but my point would be 25% isnt that far out from 30% - its not vastly disproportionate.
I'd be interested to see the figures you are referring to (but not interested enough to scroll through 300 pages of this thread).
Dublin get sponsorship for the same reason Kerry do. They’re a marquee brand that’s useful to be associated with. Dublin have also been very astute in trying to maximise that channel (as indeed have Kerry). If population was the key the Indian national soccer team would be fighting off sponsors
The metric used for games development funding was the non playing population of kids. The funding was always to get more kids playing in the capital who never played GAA (which is most kids in Dublin) and nothing to do with adult or elite level coaching despite the nonsense posted here.
The funding back in the 00s was given due to two big concerns the GAA had for Gaelic games in Dublin - the emergence of a professional Leinster rugby team and Shamrock Rovers move into Tallaght. The fear was the GAA would be wiped out in south Dublin and Tallaght. To be fair to the GAA their prediction was fairly accurate - Leinster rugby sold out Croke Park in less than 24hrs today for a match and Shamrock Rovers are now the dominate sports team in the Tallaght area. The GAA is behind and losing ground all over South Dublin, there are a few strong clubs on the outskirts - Crokes & Boden and BSJ who are developing but outside of that GAA is struggling badly. The Dublin 6 in row team was a freak generation and will be all gone soon enough and Dublins dominance will be over. So many bizarre theories and red herrings on this thread but very entertaining stuff.
I assume you’d concede that Kerry’s funding advantages over the years in Munster is also not irrelevant so?
ie, they’re not “just good”
Ie they have benefitted from unfair advantages due to their financial muscle for example?
I know what he said. And I know what you are inferring he said, which he didn't.
It has been clarified for you multiple times now and you are still insinuating that's what he meant.
You're a disgrace and I hope everyone else can now see through your BS.
So you never said it before Dublin were the big dogs in terms of sponsorship money. And you're only saying it now because you want a slice of the action. So you're a hypocrite.
Mod Edit
Warning issued.
I'm saying he didn't say "volunteers are why we won, not funding" but his post talked at length about coaches and said funding was irrelevant. Have a read back over our exchanges, it'll be clear what both he and I said.
I've said this numerous times, on this forum. My post history only goes back to 2011 so I won't be able to find evidence from before then, but there is some from years ago. Sadly, even by 2011, Dublin had been grossly overfunded for years relative to everyone else so the stipulation you are adding (re: the lion's share of the funds) will have been true for that entire 2011-present time.
No county other than Dublin are unfairly advantaged so there is nothing to respond to. And there is no misrepresentation- Dublin alone are uniquely unfairly advantaged. Again, these advantages come in the form of population, funding and playing at home. They should be split to help address these. That's my proposal to help all counties. I am glad you accepted that funding is an advantage- when you see the scale of Dublin's figures vs everyone else you will really get mad!
You keep saying he didn't say it explicitly.
What does that mean. Are you implying that is what he actually meant?
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