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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*
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https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/the-dubs-and-money-q-a-pat-teehan-v-john-connellan-1.4470939?mode=amp
Mr Connellan came across quite poor here, I’ll prepared, corrected on the majority of his points and backed down on them. He’s doing the naysayers no good in not having his ducks in a row before debating. Pat Teehan schooled him.
reading the article is recommended here.
In the article, Pat Teehan has had to admit what has been said throughout this thread. Dublin were disproportionately funded for 2 decades, recently, more funding has gone into the East Leinster project, this project was another step on the 2002 Strategic Review Committee's plan. What this means is that only Louth, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow are getting special treatment along with Dublin. This is being passed off as problem solved.
Firstly it ignores the 2 decades of funding disparity but it also ignores the rest of the country who still have to get by with minimal amounts of coaches. Pat Teehan also had to admit how far Dublin are ahead in terms of structures put in place with their Dublin only fund. These highly financed structures are the reason we see Dublin men's and women's senior football teams dominating today and why we have seen enormous improvements across the board with Dublin GAA.0 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/the-dubs-and-money-q-a-pat-teehan-v-john-connellan-1.4470939?mode=amp
Mr Connellan came across quite poor here, I’ll prepared, corrected on the majority of his points and backed down on them. He’s doing the naysayers no good in not having his ducks in a row before debating. Pat Teehan schooled him.
Malachy Clerkin: Do you accept that characterisation, Pat? That the funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition?
Pat Teehan: Of course, yes. I have no argument with that. Based on the figures that John has produced and published up to 2017, there’s no argument. The funding was disproportionate.0 -
Malachy Clerkin: Do you accept that characterisation, Pat? That the funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition?
Pat Teehan: Of course, yes. I have no argument with that. Based on the figures that John has produced and published up to 2017, there’s no argument. The funding was disproportionate.
The majority of poster always accepted that. I have always stated that but argued that some posters got their figures way off. The point I was making her was that Connellan went into a live streamed debate extremely ill prepared and he got schooled. I would not be quoting him as his arguments were dismantled and he rowed back and agreed.0 -
The majority of poster always accepted that. I have always stated that but argued that some posters got their figures way off. The point I was making her was that Connellan went into a live streamed debate extremely ill prepared and he got schooled. I would not be quoting him as his arguments were dismantled and he rowed back and agreed.
Connellan wasn't quoted in the previous posters comments. It was Pat Teehan who conceded that the funding was disproportionate.
You now say that most of the posters accept that funding has a relevance to Dublins success over the past decade. From what I have experienced, most of the posters on Boards supporting Dublin would lead you to believe that the success is due to a once in a lifetime crop of players who have excelled, and that funding has nothing to do with it.0 -
flasher0030 wrote: »Connellan wasn't quoted in the previous posters comments. It was Pat Teehan who conceded that the funding was disproportionate.
You now say that most of the posters accept that funding has a relevance to Dublins success over the past decade. From what I have experienced, most of the posters on Boards supporting Dublin would lead you to believe that the success is due to a once in a lifetime crop of players who have excelled, and that funding has nothing to do with it.
I never once said that money was the reason for Dublins success. I have pointed out that funding is something to be discussed. The funding as you know was aimed at 5-12 yr olds and was for development of our games. There are some who would have you believe it was for the Snr football teams alone. The 1.2m as was confirmed by Pat Teehan is a far cry from the quite ridiculous claims of 3.8m, as has been reported by one poster. Pat Teehan has indicated that the Leinster council have been addressing funding in other counties for quite some time, he also indicated that others will require more funding, so going in the right direction.0 -
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I never once said that money was the reason for Dublins success. I have pointed out that funding is something to be discussed. The funding as you know was aimed at 5-12 yr olds and was for development of our games. There are some who would have you believe it was for the Snr football teams alone. The 1.2m as was confirmed by Pat Teehan is a far cry from the quite ridiculous claims of 3.8m, as has been reported by one poster. Pat Teehan has indicated that the Leinster council have been addressing funding in other counties for quite some time, he also indicated that others will require more funding, so going in the right direction.
So Pat Teehan accepts that funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition. You linked the article yourself highlighting how he school John Connellan. Are you now disagreeing with him?0 -
So Pat Teehan accepts that funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition. You linked the article yourself highlighting how he school John Connellan. Are you now disagreeing with him?
I’m saying that Pat Teehan spoke using facts. Connellan in my opinion is profile building, making a very poor attempt at it though, you would think a man with his training would be prepared for a debate.0 -
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https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/the-dubs-and-money-q-a-pat-teehan-v-john-connellan-1.4470939?mode=amp
Mr Connellan came across quite poor here, I’ll prepared, corrected on the majority of his points and backed down on them. He’s doing the naysayers no good in not having his ducks in a row before debating. Pat Teehan schooled him.
Thats some interview Ariel, I really like Teehans style there, he basically acknowledges that dublin got funding but rather than get bogged down in the minutiae of it he just conceded a few points and then proceeded to basically pick apart the strands of Connellans argument
Connellans very poor though. For a trained barrister to not have his homework done is a bit embarrassing tbh. He’s just reduced to rethoric about how the dublin clubs have loads of money. Pretty sad when he complained that clubs who charge more to their members have more money as a result. I thought it was a bit cheap tbh, basically suggesting somehow that members in dublin have all this extra money to shell out
Teehans point about facilities in dublin was enlightening. It puts a much clearer view on some of the dublin county board purchases. By the end Connellan was reduced to. picking individual counties to try the “what about county X” approach. He even conceded that the project for dublin was necessary by the end. Impressive from Teehan in a very understated way0 -
So you don't agree with Pat Teehan then I take it?
I agree that Connellan came across as rank amateur and I for one would not want him representing me in any form. Pat Teehan acknowledged that there was funding to Dublin, something I have done here. He also said it needed to continue. So yes I agree with those statements.0 -
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So you don't agree with Pat Teehan then I take it?
I take it you do agree with him so? For example that the revenue generated in dublin is necessary to address the issues with facilities? That the level of revenue they generate inevitably looks greater while they’re successful? That the structures dublin have developed give their players more games exposure that’s key to their development, and which is now being copied elsewhere with support from the Leinster council? That the rest of Leinster is receiving almost twice the funding per head of population that dublin is at present? That you can’t simply “means test” clubs? That funding is still needed for dublin?0 -
Finally we're getting acceptance that the funding disparity caused the decimation of competitions such as the men's and women's football championships. The current Leinster council chairman is the most high ranking official to date who has admitted to this as fact.
Moving from denial to acceptance is a very important step. Teehan also accepted that the structures in Dublin are unrecognisable to what was in place in the 90's. Dublin have had close to two decades to perfect their system with incredible financial backing from taxpayers and the GAA. Every other county was underfunded in this time and most remain so apart from a few in the East Leinster project.
That's the next reality that will have to be faced by all within the GAA. This two decade head start is irreversible. While all other counties were scraping by, Dublin were having their professional development system funded for them. Freeing up cash to pay large salaries to many within Dublin GAA including marketing managers. These appointments and increased success have left us in a spot where Dublin now spend close to 4 million on games development per year according to John Costello.
We're moving in the right direction with the current Leinster council chairman admitting to the damage the over funding has done and a previous Leinster council chairman proposing how we can slowly introduce the split.0 -
I take it you do agree with him so? For example that the revenue generated in dublin is necessary to address the issues with facilities? That the level of revenue they generate inevitably looks greater while they’re successful? That the structures dublin have developed give their players more games exposure that’s key to their development, and which is now being copied elsewhere with support from the Leinster council? That the rest of Leinster is receiving almost twice the funding per head of population that dublin is at present? That you can’t simply “means test” clubs? That funding is still needed for dublin?
Ok. Great. Finally we have agreement on this thread. We all agree with Pat. That, notwithstanding the good intentions of the above actions for the mens senior team, that it wasn't very well thought out by Bertie/GAA - and that the funding has now resulted in the GAA juggernaut, AKA the Dublin intercounty senior mens team. And it has led to the "decimation" of the GAA competition.
Therefore surely there cannot be any more comments advising that funding has not been a fundamental reason for Dublin success. Ya?0 -
Finally we're getting acceptance that the funding disparity caused the decimation of competitions such as the men's and women's football championships. The current Leinster council chairman is the most high ranking official to date who has admitted to this as fact.
Moving from denial to acceptance is a very important step. Teehan also accepted that the structures in Dublin are unrecognisable to what was in place in the 90's. Dublin have had close to two decades to perfect their system with incredible financial backing from taxpayers and the GAA. Every other county was underfunded in this time and most remain so apart from a few in the East Leinster project.
That's the next reality that will have to be faced by all within the GAA. This two decade head start is irreversible. While all other counties were scraping by, Dublin were having their professional development system funded for them. Freeing up cash to pay large salaries to many within Dublin GAA including marketing managers. These appointments and increased success have left us in a spot where Dublin now spend close to 4 million on games development per year according to John Costello.
We're moving in the right direction with the current Leinster council chairman admitting to the damage the over funding has done and a previous Leinster council chairman proposing how we can slowly introduce the split.
You’ll have to give me a link to the report you read all this in. Pat Teehan must have given a second and very different interview to the one Ariel linked.
You’re right that the structures are unrecognisable though - oddly that was the whole point, and something that every county board was fully in the loop on from the beginning. I applaud Teehan and the rest of the GAA that they’ve scaled back dublin since 2017 and are pumping increasingly massive funding into the rest of Leinster since then to propagate the lessons learned.
Remarkably we haven’t seen the fruits as quickly as you claim dublin did, (though that was effectively due to time travel it seems) but I’m sure once county boards knuckle down success will flow. And of course the carrot for Leinster is that it will finally be a competitive province on a national level due to the massive benefit posters attribute to a head start. John Connellan should rejoice0 -
You’ll have to give me a link to the report you read all this in. Pat Teehan must have given a second and very different interview to the one Ariel linked.
You’re right that the structures are unrecognisable though - oddly that was the whole point, and something that every county board was fully in the loop on from the beginning. I applaud Teehan and the rest of the GAA that they’ve scaled back dublin since 2017 and are pumping increasingly massive funding into the rest of Leinster since then to propagate the lessons learned.
Remarkably we haven’t seen the fruits as quickly as you claim dublin did, (though that was effectively due to time travel it seems) but I’m sure once county boards knuckle down success will flow. And of course the carrot for Leinster is that it will finally be a competitive province on a national level due to the massive benefit posters attribute to a head start. John Connellan should rejoice
Are you trying to deny that Teehan accepted that the disproportionate funding Dublin received led to the decimation of the competition?0 -
Are you trying to deny that Teehan accepted that the disproportionate funding Dublin received led to the decimation of the competition?
You’ll have to link me to the quote where he says that. This was what I got from him
Which is a sentiment I agree with
No, well I never said that Dublin winning everything is great for the association. What I said was that a vibrant GAA in Dublin is great for the association. Just as a vibrant GAA in Offaly is great for the association, just as a vibrant GAA in Westmeath is great for the association. Even when we’re not winning, we’re still vibrant. And just because you’re vibrant, doesn’t mean you’re winning.
My whole thing is that every child in every school should be given the opportunity to be shown our games and that’s the vibrancy I was talking about. Not about Dublin winning All-Irelands. It’s not good for one team to be dominating. That is not good for anyone, probably not even good for Dublin because the whole thing could blow up long term.
To be clear, are you saying you agree with all Teehans points? Even the the ones that make nonsense of stuff you’ve posted previously?0 -
You’ll have to link me to the quote where he says that. This was what I got from him
Malachy Clerkin: Do you accept that characterisation, Pat? That the funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition?
Pat Teehan: Of course, yes. I have no argument with that.0 -
Malachy Clerkin: Do you accept that characterisation, Pat? That the funding has been disproportionate and that it has fed into decimation of the competition?
Pat Teehan: Of course, yes. I have no argument with that.
Very sneaky. What he’s actually conceded is that Connellanns figures (which he doesn’t debate) indicate disproportionate funding if you read the full quote- I. Fact he explicitly says that!. He also explains why it was necessary, including the neglect of sport in dublin
Pat Teehan: Of course, yes. I have no argument with that. Based on the figures that John has produced and published up to 2017, there’s no argument. The funding was disproportionate. But it came about for two reasons. First of all, the Sports Council decided that sports participation in Dublin in all sports wasn’t what it should be. And they decided to put money directly into sporting organisations in Dublin, including Dublin GAA. That money is ring-fenced and audited, it can only go to Dublin GAA.
Again, do you agree with all his points, including those that make a no sense of stuff you’ve posted here?0 -
Very sneaky. What he’s actually conceded is that Connellanns figures (which he doesn’t debate) indicate disproportionate funding if you read the full quote- I. Fact he explicitly says that!. He also explains why it was necessary, including the neglect of sport in dublin
Again, do you agree with all his points, including those that make a no sense of stuff you’ve posted here?
He says there is no argument against what was put forward. The disproportionate funding led to the decimation of the men's Leinster championship. It's what we already knew to be true but having the Leinster council chairman face up to the fact has to be welcomed.0 -
He says there is no argument against what was put forward. The disproportionate funding led to the decimation of the men's Leinster championship. It's what we already knew to be true but having the Leinster council chairman face up to the fact has to be welcomed.
He says exactly what he means, he’s very explicit. Only someone trying to sandbag a leaking argument would look to selectively quote him to serve their argument
One last time - do you accept his points that make nonsense of stuff you’ve posted here?
(Last time because any more asking into a vacuum would likely derail this thread, given its your standard tactic I’ll take silence as an acknowledgement in that case)0 -
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He says exactly what he means, he’s very explicit. O lily someone trying to sandbag a leaking argument would look to selectively quote him to serve their argument
One last time - do you accept his points that make nonsense of stuff you’ve posted here?
(Last time because any more asking into a vacuum would likely derail this thread, given its your standard tactic I’ll take silence as an acknowledgement in that case)
That was the big draw from the interview. The Leinster council chairman who actively tries to defend the over funding of Dublin admitted that it has led to the decimation of the Leinster football championship at a minimum.
Nothing in the rest of the article goes against anything I've said. In fact, it backs up what I've been saying. I think you need to read the article more closely.0 -
Very sneaky. What he’s actually conceded is that Connellanns figures (which he doesn’t debate) indicate disproportionate funding if you read the full quote- I. Fact he explicitly says that!. He also explains why it was necessary, including the neglect of sport in dublin
Again, do you agree with all his points, including those that make a no sense of stuff you’ve posted here?
This is actually ridiculous at this stage. It's there in black and white what he said. If you want to make something up and claim he didn't say what he said by all means do.0 -
He says exactly what he means, he’s very explicit. Only someone trying to sandbag a leaking argument would look to selectively quote him to serve their argument
One last time - do you accept his points that make nonsense of stuff you’ve posted here?
(Last time because any more asking into a vacuum would likely derail this thread, given its your standard tactic I’ll take silence as an acknowledgement in that case)
You really need to go back and read the article a little more closely.0 -
flasher0030 wrote: »You really need to go back and read the article a little more closely. Or if you cannot understand it, have some interpret it for you.
No offence mate but if you think that article advances the anti dublin argument you’re delusional. Teehan hands Connellan his arse- by the end he’s conceded the dublin project was completely necessary and is reduced to whinging about Galway to the Leinster council chairman0 -
No offence mate but if you think that article advances the anti dublin argument you’re delusional. Teehan hands Connellan his arse- by the end he’s conceded the dublin project was completely necessary and is reduced to whinging about Galway to the Leinster council chairman
Well said. To the point and no waffle, unlike some of the replies you receive, some posters think quantity trumps quality😂0 -
That was the big draw from the interview. The Leinster council chairman who actively tries to defend the over funding of Dublin admitted that it has led to the decimation of the Leinster football championship at a minimum.
Nothing in the rest of the article goes against anything I've said. In fact, it backs up what I've been saying. I think you need to read the article more closely.
I guess I’ve mixed you up with the poster who said this.Just so we're clear here. Posters such as the above have tried to claim that the funding has stopped since 2017 and it only began in 2007. Proof will be provided to show that this is false. Also, many are not aware of the figures or willfully ignore them. The more people know about just how much Dublin were given above every other county, the better. Let's end the farce.
Pat Teehan has confirmed in the article that the dublin funding has actually been scaled back since 2017 to a sustaining level, while funding for the rest of Leinster has tripled. Unless you’re arguing that dublin should get zero from the GAA Pat just sank you there.
Now I’m sure you’ll pull your usual cute hoor stuff where you assure us that you really meant what pat said but to be honest no one without an axe to grind is buying it anymore0 -
I guess I’ve mixed you up with the poster who said this.
Pat Teehan has confirmed in the article that the dublin funding has actually been scaled back since 2017 to a sustaining level, while funding for the rest of Leinster has tripled. Unless you’re arguing that dublin should get zero from the GAA Pat just sank you there.
Now I’m sure you’ll pull your usual cute hoor stuff where you assure us that you really meant what pat said but to be honest no one without an axe to grind is buying it anymore
Nothing new came from that article except the first high profile admittance that the funding disparity has made a mess of the football championship. It once again shows that the argument that the money was just for primary school kids or had no effect on the improvement in Dublin GAA across the board is absolute nonsense. Even the Leinster council chairman, someone who wants to defend the funding disparity, has confirmed the obvious.
So the Dublin coaching program didn't end in 2017. Where are you getting the impression it did? Instead of unbalanced funding in favour of Dublin, it's now unbalanced funding in favour of Dublin, Meath, Louth, Wicklow and Kildare. This is after almost 2 decades of Dublin only schemes.0 -
Then there was this gemI've already said that the clubs pay for half the wages of the coach in the Dublin only scheme. The rest is paid by taxpayers, the GAA and the Leinster council. This adds up to more than 30 million since 2002.
If Dublin have around 90 clubs and around 75 coaches, that is nearly one per club. Definitely nearly one per club for all the clubs in the top divisions.
Dublin are way overfunded and have access to far more coaches to anyone else. From 2015, Dublin only had 12% of the total of registered players aged 8-18.
To be fair you already rolled back from claiming 90 coaches so you were in fast retreat at this point.Leinster isn't a county. There is no coaching plan in operation like the Dublin only scheme where there's a paid coach or two for nearly every club. While Dublin had about 90 paid coaches, every other county had below 6 with some just with 1!
Pat makes it nice and clear:
the model we are copying now for the rest of Leinster, whereby the clubs contribute and the Games Promotion Officer goes into the club and it’s a part-funded by both. The number of coaches in Dublin in 2017 was 64 and it’s still 64. In the rest of Leinster in 2017 it was 72 and it’s now 118.
Indeed the model is great value for the GAA since they only actually pay half the cost, the clubs have to have skin the game so the GAA can get twice the benefit of what they put in through the commitment of their partners. So happy are the GAA that they’re actively using it elsewhere now
what I was trying to get across at the Leinster convention was that we need the coaching that is happening in Dublin to continue. And we need to expand that model to the rest of the country.
A real success story there0 -
Nothing new came from that article except the first high profile admittance that the funding disparity has made a mess of the football championship. It once again shows that the argument that the money was just for primary school kids or had no effect on the improvement in Dublin GAA across the board is absolute nonsense. Even the Leinster council chairman, someone who wants to defend the funding disparity, has confirmed the obvious.
So the Dublin coaching program didn't end in 2017. Where are you getting the impression it did? Instead of unbalanced funding in favour of Dublin, it's now unbalanced funding in favour of Dublin, Meath, Louth, Wicklow and Kildare. This is after almost 2 decades of Dublin only schemes.
Not the plan- once again pat directly contradicts you on the intention
we need the coaching that is happening in Dublin to continue. And we need to expand that model to the rest of the country.
On the plus side if they roll it out on stages well eventually figure out which county you support as soon as you stop complaining about that aspect0 -
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Then there was this gem
To be fair you already rolled back from claiming 90 coaches so you were in fast retreat at this point.
Pat makes it nice and clear:
Indeed the model is great value for the GAA since they only actually pay half the cost, the clubs have to have skin the game so the GAA can get twice the benefit of what they put in through the commitment of their partners. So happy are the GAA that they’re actively using it elsewhere now
A real success story there
So you trawled through my posts and came back with posts that are factually correct. I'm not sure what the point of that is? Which part of the below post is incorrect?
I've already said that the clubs pay for half the wages of the coach in the Dublin only scheme. The rest is paid by taxpayers, the GAA and the Leinster council. This adds up to more than 30 million since 2002.
If Dublin have around 90 clubs and around 75 coaches, that is nearly one per club. Definitely nearly one per club for all the clubs in the top divisions.
Dublin are way overfunded and have access to far more coaches to anyone else. From 2015, Dublin only had 12% of the total of registered players aged 8-18.
I think you were stung badly by me catching you out fiddling the numbers but quoting factually correct posts from myself and trying to claim they're otherwise won't cut the mustard.
Like I've always said, every other county had between one and six while Dublin had almost one per club. Obviously, a few junior clubs never had access to a coach. You've tried to write off two decades of funding disparity but I've repeatedly stated that this can't be done. Teehan acknowledges that this funding has decimated the football championship. He accepts that the reason Dublin ladies and male footballers are dominating at the moment is because of the disproportionate funding Dublin received since 2002.
The mistake he's making is thinking that giving 4 other counties disproportionate funding will make everything ok. Obviously, that's nonsense. Especially when you look at what Dublin spend on games development funding now. Almost 4 million per year.0
This discussion has been closed.
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