The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

dunnerc

Enquiring wrote: »

I'm just explaining to you why the split must happen.

Again you can say it as many times as you want
Dublin will not agree to a split

SheepsClothing

Iscreamkone wrote: »

You are correct. However, this is ancient history.
Dublin are now at a level that smaller counties can't match them off the field and the population disparity means that they can't be matched for producing numbers of quality athletes.

A blind man can see where this is going.

As an aside - there are a lot of inter-county standard players in Dublin who are prevented from playing inter-county because there is only 15 places available for 1.5 million people.

Even economically, keeping Dublin as a single province sized team, doesn't make sense anymore. We have reached the point where a Leinster final between Dublin City and Dun Laoghaire Rathdown would draw a much larger crowd than a Dublin - Meath final.

dunnerc

Enquiring wrote: »

The lines are already redrawn. The 4 counties in Dublin already exist.

Dublin GAA is one County only

SheepsClothing

Strumms wrote: »

Nope, sorry, not happening

You can say a sea lion will be refereeing the senior football final, repeating it wont make it true... :eek:

It’s an inter County Championship, not intra area or location championship...

I didn't know London and New York were counties. Good to learn something new.

dunnerc

SheepsClothing wrote: »

Even economically, keeping Dublin as a single province sized team, doesn't make sense anymore. We have reached the point where a Leinster final between Dublin City and Dun Laoghaire Rathdown would draw a much larger crowd than a Dublin - Meath final.

I think not , Dublin GAA is one County only

blanch152

Enquiring wrote: »

It's not just the opinion of one Dublin county board employee, it's the general consensus within Dublin GAA. The coaches do go to primary and secondary schools for player recruitment but their main role is within the clubs they are hired by. The clubs aren't paying half the coaches wages to become PE teachers.

The coaches are directed by their employers. This could involve coaching various teams, coaching other coaches, cúl camps etc but they also target elite development. It's a major part of their job as that's what their employers want, an increase in standards for their senior teams which will and has come from superior talent development systems.

Well, I am sorry, this post just exposes your lack of knowledge on the issue.

The GDOs don't just go to primary and secondary schools for player recruitment - nearly all of their work is in primary and secondary schools.

Elite player development is not part of their remit.

Where you are getting confused is with what those GDOs do as part of their job and separately as part of their voluntary time. The GAA in Dublin is driven forward nearly entirely by the work of volunteers. So if a GDO in a school helps out in his local club on a Tuesday night training the U-21s, that isn't the GAA or anyone else paying for him to do that, that is him volunteering. He would have been doing that whether he was a GDO or a teacher or a Garda.

dunnerc

SheepsClothing wrote: »

I didn't know London and New York were counties. Good to learn something new.

Well done you

Enquiring

Strumms wrote: »

I simply never pointed out splits .. if the sport is decline in x county, they need to stand up, man up, organize themselves and not worry about what’s going on in other counties unless it’s as a template as how they must strive and work to improve... as sports people, administrators and indeed people...

Yes, all counties should demand fair funding as one of the key elements of this movement. Splitting Dublin is central to it as well though. Without that, we would be allowing one county compete on a professional basis. It would be contrary to the ideals of fair play.

Enquiring

dunnerc wrote: »

Again you can say it as many times as you want
Dublin will not agree to a split

They'll have to. There's no other option.

dunnerc

Enquiring wrote: »

They'll have to. There's no other option.

No harm in dreaming

Enquiring

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, I am sorry, this post just exposes your lack of knowledge on the issue.

The GDOs don't just go to primary and secondary schools for player recruitment - nearly all of their work is in primary and secondary schools.

Elite player development is not part of their remit.

Where you are getting confused is with what those GDOs do as part of their job and separately as part of their voluntary time. The GAA in Dublin is driven forward nearly entirely by the work of volunteers. So if a GDO in a school helps out in his local club on a Tuesday night training the U-21s, that isn't the GAA or anyone else paying for him to do that, that is him volunteering. He would have been doing that whether he was a GDO or a teacher or a Garda.

So you are claiming that clubs in Dublin are paying for glorified PE teachers? This goes against statements from senior Dublin county board members. They state clearly that the coaches work under the direction of the clubs who hire them. Should we believe the Dublin county board members or a poster who wants to brush two decades of funding disparity under the carpet?

Iscreamkone

Strumms wrote: »

I simply never pointed out splits .. if the sport is decline in x county, they need to stand up, man up, organize themselves and not worry about what’s going on in other counties unless it’s as a template as how they must strive and work to improve... as sports people, administrators and indeed people...

When you say man up - I would say that some of the smaller counties are doing very well. Kerry with only 10% of Dublin's population create more quality players per 100,000 pop than Dublin. However, Kerry will find it hard to multiply their output further.

There will always be a gap because the population differences are so big. And the difference between urban and rural populations will only get bigger with time.

dunnerc

Iscreamkone wrote: »

When you say man up - I would say that some of the smaller counties are doing very well. Kerry with only 10% of Dublin's population create more quality players per 100,000 pop than Dublin. However, Kerry will find it hard to multiply their output further.

There will always be a gap because the population differences are so big. And the difference between urban and rural populations will only get bigger with time.

We could merge Cork and Kerry

blanch152

Enquiring wrote: »

So you are claiming that clubs in Dublin are paying for glorified PE teachers? This goes against statements from senior Dublin county board members. They state clearly that the coaches work under the direction of the clubs who hire them. Should we believe the Dublin county board members or a poster who wants to brush two decades of funding disparity under the carpet?

I have seen the work done in special schools by GDOs, calling them glorified PE teachers, reducing them to trainers of the elite are huge insults to their work.

The majority of kids coached by GDOs won't end up in GAA clubs, many GDOs will never see a kid coached by them reach a county team, that is the reality, because their work is about mass participation, not about building a better senior team.

I am leaving it there.

Enquiring

blanch152 wrote: »

I have seen the work done in special schools by GDOs, calling them glorified PE teachers, reducing them to trainers of the elite are huge insults to their work.

The majority of kids coached by GDOs won't end up in GAA clubs, many GDOs will never see a kid coached by them reach a county team, that is the reality, because their work is about mass participation, not about building a better senior team.

I am leaving it there.

You're not arguing against me here. You're arguing against Dublin county board members including the Strategic development officer. They've stated what the gdo's do and the benefits achieved for development squads.

The gdo's do go to primary and secondary schools but their main task is improving standards within their club. That's the bottom line.

ooter

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Dublin GAA is now super organised so the smaller counties can't get an advantage by being more organised than them - there will always be a gap.

Smaller counties beat dublin in senior hurling on a regular basis, there will always be a gap there.

blanch152

Enquiring wrote: »

You're not arguing against me here. You're arguing against Dublin county board members including the Strategic development officer. They've stated what the gdo's do and the benefits achieved for development squads.

The gdo's do go to primary and secondary schools but their main task is improving standards within their club. That's the bottom line.

I am talking about the reality on the ground, not what somebody higher up is reputed to have said.

Enquiring

blanch152 wrote: »

I am talking about the reality on the ground, not what somebody higher up is reputed to have said.

Oh dear, you're doubling down on this. You do know the role of the Strategic development officer? It's his job to oversee all of this, his job to know exactly where the development money is going and the work done under the games development banner. It's literally his exact job but you're claiming to know better than him. He states that the coaches role is under the direction of the clubs. His name is Kevin O'Shaughnessy and here are some direct quotes: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants." And on their qualifications: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality."

That's not enough for you? How about former coaching and games officer for Dublin GAA; Ger O'Connor: "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too."

Still not enough? You want someone on the ground right? How about someone who's been there throughout this whole operation? Long serving Dublin GAA GPO Pauric McDonald had this to say on his observation of Dublin development squads from when he set out 2 decades ago to the current time: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

All of this goes against your claim that it's all about juvenile participation. Do you have the contact details of the Dublin county board so you can correct them on this?

blanch152

Enquiring wrote: »

Oh dear, you're doubling down on this. You do know the role of the Strategic development officer? It's his job to oversee all of this, his job to know exactly where the development money is going and the work done under the games development banner. It's literally his exact job but you're claiming to know better than him. He states that the coaches role is under the direction of the clubs. His name is Kevin O'Shaughnessy and here are some direct quotes: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants." And on their qualifications: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality."

That's not enough for you? How about former coaching and games officer for Dublin GAA; Ger O'Connor: "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too."

Still not enough? You want someone on the ground right? How about someone who's been there throughout this whole operation? Long serving Dublin GAA GPO Pauric McDonald had this to say on his observation of Dublin development squads from when he set out 2 decades ago to the current time: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

All of this goes against your claim that it's all about juvenile participation. Do you have the contact details of the Dublin county board so you can correct them on this?

Not a single link to the quotations taken out of context, and the clear contradictions in everything you are posting is plain and obvious.

Everything in your post is about the coaching of kids, the improvement of the volunteer coaches that leads to the improvement in enjoyment for kids who can handle the basic skill of kicking a ball.

What your quotes are showing is that GDOs are working to ensure that coaching a 12-year old to hand-pass the ball and kick out of hands rather than along the ground so that they can get more enjoyment out of the game. That is exactly what I am saying.

You are extrapolating that to mean that somehow the Dublin senior football team is better as a result. At the best of times, that is a stretch.

It is unbelievable that you are so dead against ordinary kids being coached properly to kick and hand-pass the ball so that they can enjoy the game.

ArielAtom

blanch152 wrote: »

Not a single link to the quotations taken out of context, and the clear contradictions in everything you are posting is plain and obvious.

Everything in your post is about the coaching of kids, the improvement of the volunteer coaches that leads to the improvement in enjoyment for kids who can handle the basic skill of kicking a ball.

What your quotes are showing is that GDOs are working to ensure that coaching a 12-year old to hand-pass the ball and kick out of hands rather than along the ground so that they can get more enjoyment out of the game. That is exactly what I am saying.

You are extrapolating that to mean that somehow the Dublin senior football team is better as a result. At the best of times, that is a stretch.

It is unbelievable that you are so dead against ordinary kids being coached properly to kick and hand-pass the ball so that they can enjoy the game.

Blanch, what you are trying to do is logic with a person who refuses. It’s a losing battle. I posted links to a GPO on Twitter that very much backed up what you are saying but one poster picked up on “and occasionally go into secondary schools”. I have 1st hand experience in it since the Dublin only program that contrary to our resident contrarian ran from 2007 to 2017, the GDO was so stretched that we only saw him at our sessions for a max of 5 over a 7yr period. Elite coaching my arse, trying to teach parents with no GAA background to coach is a thankless task, if that’s another of their tasks. It does not suit some posters rhetoric to recognise that. It’s all about funding and splitting, probably to ensure their own county become competitive again. One poster even did similar in the rugby forum before landing in here, just posted drivel with no backup.

Enquiring

blanch152 wrote: »

Not a single link to the quotations taken out of context, and the clear contradictions in everything you are posting is plain and obvious.

Everything in your post is about the coaching of kids, the improvement of the volunteer coaches that leads to the improvement in enjoyment for kids who can handle the basic skill of kicking a ball.

What your quotes are showing is that GDOs are working to ensure that coaching a 12-year old to hand-pass the ball and kick out of hands rather than along the ground so that they can get more enjoyment out of the game. That is exactly what I am saying.

You are extrapolating that to mean that somehow the Dublin senior football team is better as a result. At the best of times, that is a stretch.

It is unbelievable that you are so dead against ordinary kids being coached properly to kick and hand-pass the ball so that they can enjoy the game.

As I said, you will need to contact the Dublin county board and let them know that you know more than the appointed Strategic development manager and other highly experienced Dublin GAA employees.

Contrary to your claim, the main role of the coaches is within the clubs their appointed to. Improving standards within the club, that's playing standards and coaching standards, is their priority. This obviously leads to a higher degree of talent within the club. These players get selected for development squads. You don't appear to know what a development squad is? It's basically elite development, the best players from the clubs are brought in to train with each other at their age level. The changes in standards of these development squads have been dramatic. Pauric McDonald puts it down to the GDO's.

Now, where do these development squads go? They move up their age groups and eventually we get to minor and u20 level. Here we have seen an incredible change in fortunes in Dublin GAA. Dublin won 12 titles in hurling and football at these age groups between 1980 and 2000, they have won 37 titles between 2000-2020. And guess what? These players eventually become overage for u20 football and hurling, what happens then? They move up to senior level.

The landscape has also changed there. The players that have come through the system under the GDO's have led to a major increase in titles. Dublin clubs won 8 titles including 1 All Ireland between 1980 and 2000 in hurling and football, between 2000 and 2020, Dublin clubs have won 19 titles including 6 All Ireland's. I haven't even included Ladies football in there which adds to the evidence further.

Does it end there? Where do inter county teams get their players from? It wouldn't be clubs within their county, would it? I don't think you'll need me to go into detail here but the transformation of Dublin at senior level has been just as incredible as with underage football and hurling and club football and hurling. You can't buy players in GAA so having a highly financed elite player development system is the next best thing. Dublin have 30,000 or less registered players aged between 8-18, these are the targets for elite development. The GDO's have made a huge difference across Dublin GAA. The results speak for themselves.

Why do you think Dublin should have had this elite talent system financed for them for 2 decades while every other county got very little?

Enquiring

ArielAtom wrote: »

Blanch, what you are trying to do is logic with a person who refuses. It’s a losing battle. I posted links to a GPO on Twitter that very much backed up what you are saying but one poster picked up on “and occasionally go into secondary schools”. I have 1st hand experience in it since the Dublin only program that contrary to our resident contrarian ran from 2007 to 2017, the GDO was so stretched that we only saw him at our sessions for a max of 5 over a 7yr period. Elite coaching my arse, trying to teach parents with no GAA background to coach is a thankless task, if that’s another of their tasks. It does not suit some posters rhetoric to recognise that. It’s all about funding and splitting, probably to ensure their own county become competitive again. One poster even did similar in the rugby forum before landing in here, just posted drivel with no backup.

I remember that, it was back when you were claiming the GDO's were just for primary school children. I then had a look at the twitter account you were saying only posted facts. Unfortunately for you, the facts they posted went completely against your claims!

The twitter account pointed out that the GPO's role involved more than going into primary schools. It also involved going into secondary schools, it involved coaching other coaches, it involved things such as cúl camps and it also involved advanced level camps and other roles within the club.

Your 2007-2017 claim has also been proven to be nonsense. That's the thing with facts, when someone has them, they can easily expose the lies and you've been exposed really, really badly.

Iscreamkone

If we were starting the GAA from scratch today would we develop a competition where there is a such a huge inequality in resources and population size to select from? Of course not, it would be ridiculous.

blanch152

ArielAtom wrote: »

Blanch, what you are trying to do is logic with a person who refuses. It’s a losing battle. I posted links to a GPO on Twitter that very much backed up what you are saying but one poster picked up on “and occasionally go into secondary schools”. I have 1st hand experience in it since the Dublin only program that contrary to our resident contrarian ran from 2007 to 2017, the GDO was so stretched that we only saw him at our sessions for a max of 5 over a 7yr period. Elite coaching my arse, trying to teach parents with no GAA background to coach is a thankless task, if that’s another of their tasks. It does not suit some posters rhetoric to recognise that. It’s all about funding and splitting, probably to ensure their own county become competitive again. One poster even did similar in the rugby forum before landing in here, just posted drivel with no backup.

I fully agree with you.

I really struggle with somebody trying to reduce the enjoyment of ordinary kids playing the game because of senior inter-county football.

Fundamentally, the GAA is about the club, about the juvenile players, about the sense of community. The work that the GDOs are doing is centred around all of that.

Does the work of the GDOs increase the chances of better players coming through? Yes, it contributes in a small way. Does the work of the GDOs guarantee a successful senior inter-county team? No, it doesn't because the effects of the work of the GDO are marginal.

Is the work of the GDOs the fundamental difference that saw Dublin win six-in-a-row? No, it absolutely isn't.

ShyMets

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If we were starting the GAA from scratch today would we develop a competition where there is a such a huge inequality in resources and population size to select from? Of course not, it would be ridiculous.

Fully agree. Using County boundaries makes zero sense. You would base it on population size. Basically you need x number of people in a geographically area to maintain a competitive team.

This would entail splits and amalgamations. But while some posters are happy to split Dublin, they seem reluctant to countenance amalgamations.

That does make me wonder

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

Fully agree. Using County boundaries makes zero sense. You would base it on population size. Basically you need x number of people in a geographically area to maintain a competitive team.

This would entail splits and amalgamations. But while some posters are happy to split Dublin, they seem reluctant to countenance amalgamations.

That does make me wonder

The split has to happen because of the financial disparity, you know this, I know this, we all know this.

The facts and figures have all been presented here and the defenders of the millions of euros granted to Dublin have failed to counteract any of them. The only defence included busted myths, lies, deflection and disagreements with statements from members of the Dublin county board.

Some want to ignore 2 decades worth of funding disparity. They want to brush it under the carpet. Otherwise they'd have to admit to the reality of it which they find very uncomfortable. The rest of us don't have to ignore it though. We know why Dublin have won 100 titles post funding. We can't allow a county to continue to compete on a professional basis.

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

The split has to happen because of the financial disparity, you know this, I know this, we all know this.

The facts and figures have all been presented here and the defenders of the millions of euros granted to Dublin have failed to counteract any of them. The only defence included busted myths, lies, deflection and disagreements with statements from members of the Dublin county board.

Some want to ignore 2 decades worth of funding disparity. They want to brush it under the carpet. Otherwise they'd have to admit to the reality of it which they find very uncomfortable. The rest of us don't have to ignore it though. We know why Dublin have won 100 titles post funding. We can't allow a county to continue to compete on a professional basis.

Thank you for responding and ignoring the points I was making.

I want you to know that you're posts are important to me. Please keep posting

Lost Ormond

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If we were starting the GAA from scratch today would we develop a competition where there is a such a huge inequality in resources and population size to select from? Of course not, it would be ridiculous.

Maybe we wouldnt but there's huge inequalities in resources and population size in vast majority of sports and competitions between teams. GAA is no different.

blanch152 wrote: »

I fully agree with you.

I really struggle with somebody trying to reduce the enjoyment of ordinary kids playing the game because of senior inter-county football.

Fundamentally, the GAA is about the club, about the juvenile players, about the sense of community. The work that the GDOs are doing is centred around all of that.

Does the work of the GDOs increase the chances of better players coming through? Yes, it contributes in a small way. Does the work of the GDOs guarantee a successful senior inter-county team? No, it doesn't because the effects of the work of the GDO are marginal.

Is the work of the GDOs the fundamental difference that saw Dublin win six-in-a-row? No, it absolutely isn't.

It doesnt make sense but its to be expected. Development officers are needed in more places. That doesnt mean Dublin should be criticised heavily for having them in place. More assistance to some other counties especially on the dublin commuter belt has to be done asap

Enquiring wrote: »

The split has to happen because of the financial disparity, you know this, I know this, we all know this.

The facts and figures have all been presented here and the defenders of the millions of euros granted to Dublin have failed to counteract any of them. The only defence included busted myths, lies, deflection and disagreements with statements from members of the Dublin county board.

Some want to ignore 2 decades worth of funding disparity. They want to brush it under the carpet. Otherwise they'd have to admit to the reality of it which they find very uncomfortable. The rest of us don't have to ignore it though. We know why Dublin have won 100 titles post funding. We can't allow a county to continue to compete on a professional basis.

We dont because finances alone do not make the best teams. Its all about best practices and money isnt necessarily needed for that to occur.

SheepsClothing

blanch152 wrote: »

Not a single link to the quotations taken out of context, and the clear contradictions in everything you are posting is plain and obvious.

Everything in your post is about the coaching of kids, the improvement of the volunteer coaches that leads to the improvement in enjoyment for kids who can handle the basic skill of kicking a ball.

What your quotes are showing is that GDOs are working to ensure that coaching a 12-year old to hand-pass the ball and kick out of hands rather than along the ground so that they can get more enjoyment out of the game. That is exactly what I am saying.

You are extrapolating that to mean that somehow the Dublin senior football team is better as a result. At the best of times, that is a stretch.

It is unbelievable that you are so dead against ordinary kids being coached properly to kick and hand-pass the ball so that they can enjoy the game.

So what you are saying is, driving massive number of kids and their parents into playing and volunteering in Dublin GAA has little to no benefit to the senior county team?

That's a wild claim.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

Thank you for responding and ignoring the points I was making.

I want you to know that you're posts are important to me. Please keep posting

I get the frustration, I really do. There is no justification for the funding disparity and we all know what it has led to. This is not an easy pill to swallow. It would be for a supporter of any county. It happened though, the Dublin county board accepted the money and they knew the day would come where the split had to happen.

I've said it before but the split is being looked at from a negative point of view. This needs to change. It's a positive development for everyone, especially those in Dublin.