Disease in hares and rabbits

solarwinds

These are my last words on the matter, this could go on forever and no one better off at the end of it.

If the dept. truly had any interest in the survival and protection of our hare then why is it in a hurry to shut down the best means they have at their disposal to make a positive and lasting difference. The dept. reckon that not enough could be immunized to significant numbers to achieve herd immunity, they are right if you are expecting a gov. dept. to do it the hare will be gone by the time they have finished their reports. They have at their disposal people spread all over the country who will no doubt vaccinate and tag any hare they catch as it is in the interest of their sport and the hare population. All the gov. have to do is grant a licence for the vaccine and provide it free of charge to these clubs and people involved in coursing. Dont tell me that in a year significant numbers will have not been vaccinated to start making a difference. Now the dilemma, what is easier for our govt. to do, work with these organisations who can make a real difference to this supposed threat or with the stroke of a pen wipe out a sport because there will be little resistance and thats what public want along with reducing hare numbers in the wild.

As an example there are no swarms of wild honey bees in ireland any more and if it was not for the intervention of bee keepers treating their hives every year they would be gone as well. Any swarms in the wild which have swarmed from a hive will be wiped out in a year. If you follow the govts. line of thought with the hares and transfer that to the honey bee, ban everyone from keeping hives in id say 2 years you have zero honey bees in ireland.

So after all that regardless of your views on a particular sport who is best placed here to make a real and lasting difference, the clubs who is supported and resourced by our govt. to do their work for them or the govts. approach lets ban a sport because its populist bullsh1t and at the end of it all the hare will be slowly wiped out. How is that approach saving the hare, it won't but sure look it it'll make a great headline and get many likes on facebook which at the end of the day is all they are interested in.

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

You might have missed this post

You might have missed the point. You call for Governmental oversight, ala the ban on coursing, then say it's up to the clubs to initiate a vaccine program, that has been said above to be ineffective.

You're all over the shop.

Clubs, and this is my opinion, may have no interest in protecting a species that they are banned from using. Return control to the clubs and repeal this ban, then allow them to work autonomously or in conjunction with the Government to help stem the spread of the disease.

"Coursing clubs keep hares together in unnatural high densities so it would exponentially increase rate of spread of a highly virulent disease". One biggest thing we could do in stopping further spread is stopping this practice. Would you not agree?

If vaccinating the confined animals used in coursing prevents ANY of them from contracting this disease then what is the matter with the numbers held?

Any that escape or are released are already vaccinated. If they capture wild ones for use they are immediately vaccinated, quarantined and once cleared used.

So point still stands. The ban was a knee jerk reaction to an already unfavourable sport. There were other options and possibly many more i have not thought of, but none were considered, apparently.

Cass

Firstly thank you for a concise and well written reply. Its refreshing.

I'e a few questions.

knipex wrote: »

Cass

To be fair RHD was discovered in Rabbits in Ireland in 1995 but no infection was ever found in Hares.

What was done to combat it then?

The other problem is that unlike RHD RHD2 has crossed into hares and mortality in hares appears to be higher than in Rabbits. Exact mortality is unknown but its estimated between 30% and 50% will die.

As with my posts, and others, above if the vaccine is not licensed here, not used here, and considered to be ineffectual then what is the solution AFTER the ban? Let it run it's course?

If so then how does a ban help? If it's regarding the density of Hares kept for coursing then would a limited license, as i said above, to vaccinate the confined population not be worthwhile, allow coursing to resume and then put a ban on the collection/capture of wild Hares?

No one knows how long RH2 2 has been in Ireland, but to my knowledge the first laboratory proven case was in the last 12 months and the first in hares in the last 6

Any nothing was done then. You'll excuse my broken record posts, but the timing is not coincidental.

The biggest issue is diagnosis. Because survival rates are so high many outbreaks in rabbits may not have been noticed, let alone reported and those have been noted, symptoms look like mixi or RHD.

What is the aftermath of infection and survival. Are they still carriers or is an immunity built up, or is it complete remission?

Hares in the wild are relatively isolationist so the spread is contained but when held together is spreads rapidly. Hence the concern about coursing.

Can only ask this again:

Cass wrote:

If vaccinating the confined animals used in coursing prevents ANY of them from contracting this disease then what is the matter with the numbers held?

Any that escape or are released are already vaccinated. If they capture wild ones for use they are immediately vaccinated, quarantined and once cleared used.

Cass this isn't a conspiracy, some very genuine people are very worried about the potential impact on the hare population. I'm not talking about anti hunting fanatics or vegans but genuine normal people.

Look at it the point of view of those involved in coursing. In chronological order:

• RHD has been in this country for over 25 years (even though some maintain it hasn't been).
• Nothing was/is being done about it
• It spreads to Hares
• A new strain developed
• According to you, tests diagnosed it 12 months ago and 6 in Hares
• Still nothing is done
• RTE launch, what can only be described as, an attack on Irish coursing and greyhound racing.
• Within a month coursing is "temporarily" banned
• We are now informed that vaccinations are available but not licensed and even if allowed are ineffectual
• No strategy or plan to combat this or protect the species has been discussed or relayed to those involved in the sport and from track record the Government will continue to ignore it once the virtue signalling aspect of their agenda (the ban) is implemented.

I'm not involved in coursing, never been to a meeting and never seen it person, yet i'll defend the sport of my fellow fieldsport persons as if it were my own against, and i can prove this, a track record of our Government attacking our sport for publicity, political, and virtue signalling reasons.

So i'm not a member of the tin foil hat brigade, but its odd that an issue that has been known about for as little as 6 months to over 25 years is all of a sudden serious just after the RTE program.

Capercaillie

Your concern is for the sport of Coursing and not our Irish Hare.

Capercaillie

Again ignoring the fact that keeping large amounts of stressed animals at high densities is the worst thing you could do!! Are coursing clubs going to keep every hare separate after they are vaccinated, given the vaccine is not 100% effective?

Cass

You would take only that from everything i've written.

A sport has been unfairly penalised for the inaction of the Government.

You say the clubs should be proactive, then you say it's the Government's responsibility. How about you pick a side and stop flip/flopping, decrying everyone else, and trying to make others responsible.

Cass

Are coursing clubs going to keep every hare separate after they are vaccinated, given the vaccine is not 100% effective?[/QUOTE]
As i asked above what should they do?

How about you start laying out a plan of action. Like the climate hoaxers that decry the end of the world but offer no actual solutions to saving it. What do YOU suggest be done?

Start with the current "stock" of Hares kept by coursing clubs? You say this adds tot he problem. Ok i'll cede that point so what do you do next? Vaccinate or not? Release or not? Humanely dispatch or not?

Now for the wild population. Do you just leave them to their fate? Should anything be done and if so what? You have already dismissed vaccination so what other plan(s) would you institute to combat this situation?

Now is your chance "active conservationist". Educate me on what is the next step.

Cass

I've removed two reported posts which contained inferred insults towards other users.

Things can get heated in lively debates but lets stick to the topic and the point raised and leave the personal stuff out of it.

That goes for me too so i'll be doing a clean up of the thread to remove all the inter personal stuff with a hope we can get back to the topic of the thread.

Cass

Right.

I gone back through the entire thread. You'll see "Last edited by Cass" under your post if i changed anything. Just because it's marked as edited doesn't mean i have changed the content of all those posts it justs means i've gone into the post to alter the format or text.

Only a handful of posts needed the content edited to remove even the most subtle hint of personal stuff, the rest are just removing the high volume of quoted posts which are redundant because it was in reply to the post directly above it.

All other posts that were threading the line were removed for the sake of a smooth thread, my own included.

So the thread is open again, let's stick to the topic and any further deviation will result in deletion without notification. Any personal stuff will result in ban from this thread.

slipperyox

If there is a disease in a protected species leading to loss of numbers, first action is to stop further decimation of the species via banning of kill/capture, protection of habitat loss and control of other threats.

Proper order no matter if better late than never.

Second step is access the numbers and monitor them, this is what is being done.

When the threat is considered moot/ negligible, then re-instatement of hunting etc is actioned.

This is standard good conservation practices, regardless of timescale. And people need to realise the concept of extinction being real in their lifetime, as its not based on numbers left, so much as genetic variation within these remaining numbers.

Personally, I detest coursing, but as its legal, each to their own, and I do shoot my own food.

some bedtime reading about the virus: And boy does it spread fast!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5752944/

Driving home from Shelbourne Park around midnight last night and we saw a couple of gentlemen out lamping. It’s a pity this cannot be stopped.

cookimonster

Deleted User wrote: »

Driving home from Shelbourne Park around midnight last night and we saw a couple of gentlemen out lamping. It’s a pity this cannot be stopped.

Why?

Benny mcc

slipperyox wrote: »

If there is a disease in a protected species leading to loss of numbers, first action is to stop further decimation of the species via banning of kill/capture, protection of habitat loss and control of other threats.

Proper order no matter if better late than never.

Second step is access the numbers and monitor them, this is what is being done.

When the threat is considered moot/ negligible, then re-instatement of hunting etc is actioned.

This is standard good conservation practices, regardless of timescale. And people need to realise the concept of extinction being real in their lifetime, as its not based on numbers left, so much as genetic variation within these remaining numbers.

Personally, I detest coursing, but as its legal, each to their own, and I do shoot my own food.

some bedtime reading about the virus: And boy does it spread fast!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5752944/

I shoot some of our food but grow most of our meat here but you are spot on with every thing you say here.

Vizzy

cookimonster wrote: »

Why?

I suspect that these gentlemen were not shooting but were more transient in nature, am I correct Maryanne ?

Athdara

Scattery Island off Kilrush in West Clare had a massive rabbit population, you would nearly step on one when you would visit. Last week we didn’t see a single one. The OPW had foot baths going in and off the island. They are blaming this disease.

richiedel123

slipperyox wrote: »

If there is a disease in a protected species leading to loss of numbers, first action is to stop further decimation of the species via banning of kill/capture, protection of habitat loss and control of other threats.

Proper order no matter if better late than never.

Second step is access the numbers and monitor them, this is what is being done.

When the threat is considered moot/ negligible, then re-instatement of hunting etc is actioned.

This is standard good conservation practices, regardless of timescale. And people need to realise the concept of extinction being real in their lifetime, as its not based on numbers left, so much as genetic variation within these remaining numbers.

Personally, I detest coursing, but as its legal, each to their own, and I do shoot my own food.

some bedtime reading about the virus: And boy does it spread fast!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5752944/

Can I ask this question so? Coursing is essentially banned now so why can I still go out and shoot a hare if I see it with my shotgun once it's in season? If they were genuinely worried why didn't they take them off the open season order? Because this is all smoke and mirrors!!!!

Corvidae

Do you people listen to yourselves? Climate hoaxers, liberals, antis, blah, blah, blah. What you don't realise is that society is progressing and you lot are relics from another age. You have no political support and I can only wish for the day when you and your "sports" are consigned to the dustbin of history. Future generations will look back on you and say "they used to do what?". I'm embarrassed to be part of the same species as you.

solarwinds

Thank you for taking time away from polishing your ivory tower to comment. But its not being very helpful or in any way contributing to a possible solution.

cookimonster

Corvidae wrote: »

Do you people listen to yourselves? Climate hoaxers, liberals, antis, blah, blah, blah. What you don't realise is that society is progressing and you lot are relics from another age. You have no political support and I can only wish for the day when you and your "sports" are consigned to the dustbin of history. Future generations will look back on you and say "they used to do what?". I'm embarrassed to be part of the same species as you.

Meanwhile, back to reality, the adult discussion goes on........

solarwinds

It is because of "our sports" YOU get to enjoy song birds in your garden and watch rabbits playing gracefully in the fields. Lets say you get your wish, what happens next rabbit populations explode to the point of disease and become extinct, mr. fox is walking in your back door raiding your presses because there are no vermin left for him to eat in the wild and he has eaten all the ground nesting birds.
The songbirds disappear from your garden because the magpie have destroyed all their nests, and now they line up on your washing line wondering what next can they eat. You do not want to acknowledge the work fieldsports do in this country because you have been conditioned by facebook to think it is wrong, barbaric and not part of a modern society.
One day if your wish is granted and we are consigned to the scrap heap you to will have to remember happier times when you enjoyed this wildlife because it will be no longer there, but just remember we were there at the same time and maybe just maybe you might equate the two to being in balance.
I mean look at parts of Dublin crying out to have seagull numbers, a protected species culled because of the affect they are having on their lives. Its not until the problem enters your garden is anyone bothered.
So as was said back in the real world you just sit in your conservatory in D4 and enjoy the wildlife we are finding increasingly hard to protect for you because of the likes of yourself.

cookimonster

cookimonster wrote: »

Why?

I was concerned that they might be contributing to the spread of the disease, but on reflection, possibly not.

knipex

Cass wrote: »

Firstly thank you for a concise and well written reply. Its refreshing.

I'e a few questions.

Sure. If I can answer I will. (I am do not work with the dept, I am not a vet and my knowledge is limited to second hand plus some basic virology \ microbiology and epidemiology exposure)

Rather than quoting an answering every line individually My answers are in blue

Look at it the point of view of those involved in coursing. In chronological order:


[*]RHD has been in this country for over 25 years (even though some maintain it hasn't been).

Roughly 25 years yes. But that's RHD.

[*]Nothing was/is being done about it

RHD only effects rabbits who are treated as vermin \ pest (hence shoot all year round etc) so no one really cared and they weren't really at risk of getting wiped out.

Even if people cared enough there isn't really anything you can do to prevent transmission in rabbits.


[*]It spreads to Hares
[*]A new strain developed

Wrong way around. New strain infected hares. Original strain does no infect hares.. Think of them as two different infections

(I have no doubt there are multiple strains and variants of the virus that's what viral infections do they mutate hence last years flu vaccine doesn't work this year) but the most recent one effects hares.. )


[*]According to you, tests diagnosed it 12 months ago and 6 in Hares

Not quite. I said within last 12 and last 6 months. I don't have exact dates, and purposely dont want to give dates that are wrong so built in a safety margin. What i can say is it was recent.


[*]Still nothing is done

The best defence hares have against RHD2 is the fact that they are unsociable. Anything that brings hares together puts that in danger. There is literally nothing else that can be done



[*]RTE launch, what can only be described as, an attack on Irish coursing and greyhound racing.

Cas. You know I am not anti hunting or anti guns, you know I am not a PETA member a "militant vegan" or a resident of a leafy suburb of Dublin who think a steak grows in a butchers. I am also not a virtue signaler.

But the greyhound industry while having many ethical, decent trainers is rampant with cowboys and dicks. You know that as well as I do. I was walking my kids in a wood near here when we came across 10 greyhounds shot and dumped in a pile. They had been there days, 2 were still alive and at least 4 were alive when dumped and had pulled themselves half out of the pile. All 10 had their ears cut off.

It was one of the most horrific things I have ever seen and my kids still talk about it.

And its not an isolated case. When I reported it I was told that they regularly hear about similar in the same area. Not daily but probably monthly.

If you found out some local shooters were out lamping in fields without permission, or around houses you wouldn't ignore it. Especially if complaints were made. You and your club would deal with it.

I know I would and if necessary (if they continued to act the maggot) I would not hesitate to report them. I like shooting, maggots like that bring all shooters into disrepute which will hurt us all.

The greyhound industry has known about and ignored the issues in the industry it for years. They know who the cowboys are and they let them continue in the industry. I know 2 greyhound trainers who have left the game out of disgust.

They brought this on themselves and to be honest I have no sympathy.

I don't know much about coursing, its not really done around my area so cannot comment.

I didn't see the RTE program but from what I have heard on the greyhound side it was pretty accurate.



[*]Within a month coursing is "temporarily" banned
[*]We are now informed that vaccinations are available but not licensed and even if allowed are ineffectual
[*]No strategy or plan to combat this or protect the species has been discussed or relayed to those involved in the sport and from track record the Government will continue to ignore it once the virtue signalling aspect of their agenda (the ban) is implemented.

Again, coursing involves taking numbers of hares and placing them in close proximity. It will spread the infection.

Coursing clubs vaccinating them when they collect the hares is a waste of time. The vaccine (like any vaccine) takes weeks to be effective. By then if one of the hares collected is infected or if a previous hare was infected and has contaminated the cages, bedding etc they will all be infected. Long before the vaccine kicks in.

Vaccination works if you get herd immunity which is considered to be roughly 95% or better take up rate. That's why there is such concern regarding the decline in vaccine uptake amongst kids and why we are seeing measles, TB and mumps outbreaks.

In wild hares and rabbits what are the chances of getting 20% of the population immunised ?? especially considering how fast they breed and their short lifespan.. The very attempt to capture, vaccinate and release them would do more to spread the disease than prevent it.

The only thing that can be done is to prevent hares gathering together to spread the disease.

Sure you can build a small population of vaccinated hares in captivity and later release them in the wild (and its quite possible that this is being done) but do you really want to see the hare population decimated ??






I'm not involved in coursing, never been to a meeting and never seen it person, yet i'll defend the sport of my fellow fieldsport persons as if it were my own against, and i can prove this, a track record of our Government attacking our sport for publicity, political, and virtue signalling reasons.

I support hunting and responsible gun ownership.. But that doesn't mean I support every hunter and every gun owner. I suspect you dont either..


So i'm not a member of the tin foil hat brigade, but its odd that an issue that has been known about for as little as 6 months to over 25 years is all of a sudden serious just after the RTE program.

Again RHD2 is relatively new everywhere and even more so in Ireland , I cannot give exact dates as to when it was confirmed in hares in Ireland but to my knowledge it was within the last 6 months (possibly sooner)

knipex

richiedel123 wrote: »

Can I ask this question so? Coursing is essentially banned now so why can I still go out and shoot a hare if I see it with my shotgun once it's in season? If they were genuinely worried why didn't they take them off the open season order? Because this is all smoke and mirrors!!!!

When you shoot hares. How many live hares do you gatherer in one point ??

Cass

Corvidae wrote: »

Climate hoaxers,

• In the 70s it was said parts of America, Australia, Europe, Africa, etc. would be under water. They're not.
• A UN report in 1986 saying massive floods and natural disasters would encompass the world by 2000 if changes weren't made, yet the latest data shows deaths from natural disasters have dropped, not risen.
• A Glacier sign in an American national park was removed because it read the Glacier would be gone by 2020. It's still there.
• Al Gore made an absolute fortune off scaremongering. The only thing to rise was his bank balance.
• Children have been weaponised as to attack the ideology of climate change is to attack children, hence represenhensible. Same with gun control.

Is the climate changing, yes, most likey. Is man directly responsible for it. No one can say with any scientific certainty, and even then no one has anything to say other than "the sky is falling". No solutions or plans to combat it.

liberals,

No, not liberals, militant leftists. There is a difference.

antis

Yeah, like you. Your only contribution is to insult, name call, and wish harm on those with opposing views and offer not constructive debate on the matter.

, blah, blah, blah.

My point exactly.

What you don't realise is that society is progressing and you lot are relics from another age.

Its called heritage, and a lifestyle choice. Again you don't agree with it, and even though it doesn't affect you, you want it gone through ignorance and lack of understanding that some people still value a traditional way of gathering food.

Do you realise the harm that would be caused if all vermin and game shooting/culling were to be stopped in the morning.

Start with deer. Population would rise dramatically in a short time. The Greens beloved replantation scheme (or whoever thought it up) would be wiped out from the deer stripping bark from saplings and killing them. Farmers with these trees/saplings on their land would loose money on the vegetation destroyed and also on the possible yield another crop may have provided. Farmers would face financial hardship as Deer feed on the same lands as cattle and other livestock. You know about farmers right? The ones that put the food on your table.

Rabbits. Population explosion, immediately. Crops, grass lands and eventually urban encroachment follow soon after as animals are starving and seek food. Disease (Mixxy, RHD, etc) spreads unchecked and uncontrolled. Dead, dying and diseased bodies start to pile up around all areas of the country.

Foxes. Uncontrolled population means increase in numbers. With no culling and a plentiful food supply from rabbits and other uncontrolled vermin their numbers begin to rise quite quickly. As the population grows so to does the need for territory. Again urban encroachment on a grand scale. Then the spread of Mange, disease, etc. which can be transferred to domestic pets, and other animals.

Birds (in general). As always uncontrolled population means increase in numbers. Crops being devastated, starvation ensuing as they struggle for the dwindling food supply with other vermin/game.

All the above will not, not maybe, but guaranteed. Look at the Phoenix park. No hunting or natural predators so they must cull the population every couple of years. This is what hunters do on national scale, not to mention the conservation and breeding programs that are run around the country. If hunting stops, all that stops.

Now look at the people involved. Shooters by their very nature care, maintain and upkeep the land they shoot on. Be it through ownership, shooting rights, etc it is in their benefit to keep a healthy environment and eco-system for both the livestock and crops. This creates a bonanza for vermin that would destroy this. If shooting stopped in the morning gunclubs would be the first thing to go. The NARGC would be obsolete. All the year round maintenance provided by shooters cease. For larger farmers, not too much of an issue, at first. For smaller farmers that rely on these lads it mean certain things don't get done. The shooter will help for a while, but with no "give and take" with the land owners commitment may waver. Lets be naive about this. Now the aforementioned vermin/game start to attack these previously "protected" grazing/crop lands.

Local community. The bonds/friendships are not as strong as interaction between people is lessened as common interests differ. People drift apart and become strangers to their neighbours. Businesses in the locality see a small drop in sales at first. Then the local shop has to close the deli counter and let staff go. Worse case, they have to shut up shop altogether as the locals that used to stop while out shooting now gets all their supplies from the supermarket. All dealers are pretty much out of business apart from those that can cater exclusively to the target shooting community. More jobs lost, less income for the revenue, more social welfare payments, depression, poverty, etc.

You have no political support and I can only wish for the day when you and your "sports" are consigned to the dustbin of history.

We have more than you think, but less than i'd like.

Future generations will look back on you and say "they used to do what?". I'm embarrassed to be part of the same species as you.

You mean the ones that believe there are 56 (or whatever) genders, that you can go from being a boy to a girl to a Dolphin and back to a boy as the whim takes you.?

The ones that eat washing machine tablets then demand to be listened to because "feelings".

Guess what facts don't care about your feelings. Your generation have the numbers and according to you the support so go on, make it happen. Ban shooting, hunting, etc. See where we end up in 5 to 10 years and i guarantee the Government will pay people to take up shooting.

Cass

@ Knipex.

I won't quote it all again as it'll turn into a monster reply and make for hard reading.

You may have limited understanding, but it's more than i have so thanks for taking the time to explain it. I understand and even agree with what you say, for the most part. A few things i would argue on and it's not the details of what you say more so the manner in which it was implemented and based on history what the sport can expect to come from it.

My annoyance comes from the banning of a specific sport (however temporary they claim it'll be) with no other measures implemented. You say vaccinations and such don't work, but what are the options that do work or is it a case of let nature take it's course. Hares may not be as social as Rabbits, but the disease may continue to spread. So is it just going to be allowed to?

Secondly, on the same point, is the temporary ban. The same "temporary" bans have been used, illegally so and recently, to stymie the sport of shooting. The 1972 temporary custody order lasted for nearly 30 years until it was challenged in court even though it was only meant to be for 30 days. The pistol ban of 2008 based on the criminal murder of an innocent and directly related to the loss of the high court which saw them reintroduced. The 2015 "intended" ban on semi auto rifles which is still looming today. The 2015 "intended" ban on rimfire pistols if too many are licensed/sold. The last two have no legislation to support such a ban, but the threat of it has curtailed the numbers being sold and licensed. All based on criminal activity, and in other countries.

Every aspect of not just sport but life has it's bad eggs. I wouldn't and don't try to defend those. However you cannot legislate away everything you don't agree with. There is also the "optics". The RTE article was a hatchet job and its no surprise as we've been in this situation in the past. The program on the 2009 firearms Act with miriam o callaghan where she "shushed", insulted, cut off, and spoke over the representative from the shooting community while allowing the representative from the other side to speak unchallenged and without pushing for proof of their stance was one such instance. RTE's bias is so well known that most shooting groups and associations will not engage with them again.

If the "temporary" ban was given a time scale, sufficient enough to allow for thorough checking of Hares being kept, and even a suspension of "fresh" Hares being caught there would be annoyance, but co-operation and understanding. However there was no, seemingly, forethought put into this. It was ban, and deal with the fallout later. IOW standard SOP.

solarwinds

Well which is, and this is not directed at you its more a general question, and thank you for your insight.
But if vaccines are not used because of the little benefit gained due to the isolated nature of hares and therefore not worth the hassle because the disease will not be transmitted easily.
Then how, has this disease managed to reach the epidemic proportions it apparently has that the only option is to ban sports. I know people will say hares are confined and in close proximity, but surely this has to be seen as a positive and vaccine these animals.
It just bangs of the typical knee jerk reaction taken to a problem without investigating all aspects of it and looking for solutions that will actually work as opposed to a solution where everyone loses.
The handgun ban heralded as a massive success in reducing crime and death rates, where?. These guys have just moved on to full auto. No lives were saved but yet it is put out in the media that it was a great success. Tell that to the innocent victims families who had loved ones killed with ILLEGALLY IMPORTED WEAPONS, none killed with legally held FIREARMS.

Eddie B

One things for certain. The virus is here to stay, and so maybe we're seeing the end to coursing. Be interesting to see what the population will be like, in ten or so years time. By next spring, hares will certainly be gathering in groups all over the country to spar, and later will be breeding, so lots of opportunity for the virus to spread. Personally, I don't think we're going to see the hare population plummet though, like we're made to believe.

Anyone got any info on how hare numbers have been affected in mainland Europe?

knipex

Cass wrote: »

@ Knipex.

My annoyance comes from the banning of a specific sport (however temporary they claim it'll be) with no other measures implemented. You say vaccinations and such don't work, but what are the options that do work or is it a case of let nature take it's course. Hares may not be as social as Rabbits, but the disease may continue to spread. So is it just going to be allowed to?

.

To be fair coursing is the only sport activity that involves the collection of wild hares so it will be the only one affected by any any effort to prevent spread. In the wild and left hares should remain relatively unaffected.

As for what else can be done ? Not a lot really.

It can be spread by predators like foxes so there MAY be an encouragement to hunt foxes in certain areas but no one want this to turn into another badger TB farce.

Building up a pool of vaccinated hares will offer no real benefit as immunity will not pass to the next generation.


Regarding the ban being temporary. Unless the disease wipes its self out, or more likely resistance builds in the wild then I cannot see how it could be lifted.

Gathering hares is just a surefire way to spread infection.

Longer term what can the sport do ? I really don't know. I don't know how efficacious the vaccine is, or to be honest if there is one against the specific strain of RHD 2 in Ireland.

If there is and its efficacy is good then they could look at building their own pool of vaccinated hares in captivity and breed their own stock. This would have to be done under the supervision of the department to ensure that there is no possibility of infected hared being released.

It would also be expensive.. The kinds of facilities and expertise required to do something like this ain't cheap.

Virus's are scary.. Really scary. 90% of the population do not realise how scary or how helpless we are against them. They steal DNA or RNA, they mutate, the cross species, they are nasty nasty things. Its even difficult to grow them in a lab. They live to replicate and in the process they kill. Luckily, given a chance our immune systems can deal with most.

Do you know how many virus's we can cure ??

None..

Not a single one. Not even the common cold.

We can treat symptoms, use antivirals to try and minimise the viral load to try and allow the immune system to deal with it but science cannot cure a single viral infection. We can vaccinate but even that has limited benefit because the virus can mutate and the vaccine loose efficacy.

All those outbreak type movies !! All viruses..

knipex

I understand your confusion and to be honest I blame the media, outbreak movies and education.

Again I am not a virologist or a microbiologist.

In simple terms Vaccines work by tricking the body's immune system to develop a resistance to a particular organism. Some use a weakened or dead viral particle to do so, some use a protien marker but basically they make the body think its being infected and make the immune system work to kill it off. That's why come people report feeling ill after receiving a vaccine, its not an infection that's making them ill, the vaccine doesn't infect them, its the body's immune response that makes them run a temp and feel sick. Once the immune system has finished its work you have a resistance to the infection. Please note that this isnt immediate. You don't get an injection and are immediately immune, it takes time for the immune system to work. Days or weeks.

The level of resistance gained depends on the efficacy of the vaccine and the individual. Some people get full immunity, some less so, they may be able to deal with a low level of viral particles but a higher level could overload their resistance.
Some people develop no immunity at all.

Also the immunity is not permanent and degrades over time. Hence the need for boosters. Again this depends on the vaccine but also the individual.

For example most people get 10 years immunity for the hep b vaccine. I get maybe a year to 18 months so I get 6 monthly titrations and get vaccinated when they get low. My wife despite repeated vaccinations has no immunity to measles.

Hence the need for herd immunity. If everyone is immune then the infection has no place to hide so it dies out or becomes so rare that those that develop no immunity from the vaccination or those that for various reasons cannot be vaccinated don't catch the infection. But you need to be at 95% of the population for that to occur.

Final issue is that immunity gained through vaccination isn't hereditatry so it doesn't pass to your children. Hence every generation needs to be vaccinated.

With Hares. You go out you collect 20 hares and vaccinate them. However one of them has RHD2 or one of the traps used to have a hare that had RHD2 they have passed the RHD2 to the other 20 before the vaccine had time to work.

Virus's are nasty fu*Kers once infected the host sheds. millions and million of viral particles, hundreds of millions, in saliva, puss, blood, droppings, everywhere and it contaminates everything. All its take sis 2 or 3 particles to infect the next host.

But lets assume that your successful, and you immune the 20, they all develop immunity and you release them. The doe has 3 litters that year. None of which are immune and after a couple of years she dies off.

Secondly. The disease hasn't reached epidemic levels in thee hare population. if it had it would be too late to do anything.

The purpose of the ban is to try and stop the spread before it becomes endemic..

Edit...

Just read this again.

I'm not trying to be condescending, rude, or insult anyone.

I stress again I am not a virologist or microbiologist, I know a little but its enough to know just how complicated, this entire area is. The more I learn the more complicated it is.

Its easy to fight against with simple (if nonsensical) arguments like the anti vax brigade but its orders of magnitude more difficult to explain or defend.

solarwinds

Well thank you for explaining to the best of your ability any way.