Disease in hares and rabbits

Cass

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I spoke with my brother last night and he said the reasoning for the ban was "at this critical juncture when the hare population is literally on a knife edge,

Leaving the political line aside, without a comprehensive or even tentative study on population numbers, infection numbers, coursing affect, etc. it's a SWAG (Scientific wild ass guess).

Like the pistol ban for shooters in 2008 was a kneejerk reaction to the murder of Shane Geoghahan and done nothing to combat illegal arms, criminality or the continuation of gang violence. None of that mattered though because a goal of the Government was to ban pistols after loosing two high court cases which seen them being reintroduced.

you don't want additional stressors on the population trying to fight off RHD. The coursing ban whilst not a panacea can't harm the situation."

So what is the solution?

He also mentioned that the ban was not likely to see major resistance and in fact would be viewed favourably by most of the public.

The same "great unwashed" that are not firearm owners and believe all firearms should be banned even though they have never had any interaction with or handling of firearms?

Exact same with coursing. They protest it without an RHD threat so the end result is all that matters. The fact that RHD can facilitate this is simply a bonus (as cruel as that may sound).

One thing he kept repeating was that this was a" whole of government effort." Not sure what that even means to be honest.

Means exactly what it sounds like. It has consensus across the Governmental spectrum. A hard thing to argue against, and also futile as it'll serve no purpose now that action has been taken.

I mentioned the vaccine but he quoted some French study which found vaccines ineffectual for this issue.

This begs the question, again, what is the solution?

Banning coursing will account for, well nothing as there is no data and allowing the disease to "run its course" because it's too expensive or ineffectual means things stay status quo.

It also by default means the ban, however temporary they claim it to be, can run indefinitely.

Anyone remember the last temporary ban, back in 1972? That one lasted for over 30 years.

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

Was referring to RHD in Irish Hare not rabbits.

As it's been around since 1995 so does anyone believe it only "jumped" to Hares in the last couple of months, just after the RTE program?

Also its called RHD (Rabbit). No HHD.

Eddie B

solarwinds wrote: »

If the dept. gave a damn about the hare population here which is apparently now under serious threat?. Why not use the vaccines they have to treat the problem and get rid of it saving the hares. Banning coursing is not curing anything, animals will still die and then we still have no hares. So tell me how does banning a sport save the hare population ?
Or do i have to wait for the next facebook post on the subject before you get an answer to that one?

I'm sure the coursing clubs have already suggested this, that they could voluntarily minister vaccines ( supplied by the government), to all hares they net each year. This would be a win win situation, for both coursing and the hare population. But something tells me that this solution will not be accepted, because it doesnt help the real agenda from being achieved.

Capercaillie

Cass wrote: »

As it's been around since 1995 so does anyone believe it only "jumped" to Hares in the last couple of months, just after the RTE program?

Also its called RHD (Rabbit). No HHD.

Cross species transmission.

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

I'm sure the coursing clubs have already digested this, that they could voluntarily minister vaccines ( supplied by the government), to all hares they net each year. This would be a win win situation, for both coursing and the hare population. But something tells me that this solution will not be accepted, because it doesnt help the real agenda from being achieved.

If vaccinations given by coursing clubs helped prevent a serious outbreak of disease I would be fully in favour of that.

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

Cross species transmission.

Exactly. Glad we agree on something.

So it's now back to the question, and it might seem irrelevant but it's not, why is action only being taken now?

there has been a concerted effort to have coursing banned with massive protests and online opposition to it. There was no violations, or at least not enough, of a high enough standard to close all coursing meetings, and to change the law takes more effort than some deemed it's worth so the quick solution is to temporarily ban it under the guise of species protection.

25 years too late, and in response to a minority of people with a high social media presence against a particular sport. The same thing was done to firearm owners in 1972, in 2008, and now it's being done to coursing associations. With no change in the law and this situation being blown out of proportion (and unless someone has data to support the argument that Hare populations are on a knife edge it's only conjecture) this ban could last indefinitely.

Eddie B

Just to add to what Cass said above. There is definitely something amiss here. There is no doubt that RHD is in this country for many years now. We have spoken about several times here on this forum over the past few years. Those who frequent the fields, farmers, dog men, hunting folk etc have all witnessed the decimation of rabbit populations in many parts of the country.

So yes, why have the experts only found evidence of the virus now? Even more mind boggling, why have they found it in both rabbits and hares in the same county, at the same time? Your probably talking thousands of affected rabbits, to a handful of affected hares. It just don't add up.

Another thing, Cass mentions data. It should be easy see a decline in hare numbers, if any, the last ten years even. Hasn't their been plenty of research done on hare numbers over the last number of years.

Birdnuts

Eddie B wrote: »

. Hasn't their been plenty of research done on hare numbers over the last number of years.

Yes - and it shows a slight rise since all time lows reached in the mid 1990's after 5 decades of steep decline post WW2. The National Biodiversity centre had a good article on the subject last year in their quarterly magazine

Eddie B

Eddie B wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a vaccine for RHD. Why don't the coursing clubs suggest that they vaccinate every hare that they net. They would be actually protecting our hares from this deadly virus.

I believe that it's not licenced for use here.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I spoke with my brother last night and he said the reasoning for the ban was "at this critical juncture when the hare population is literally on a knife edge, you don't want additional stressors on the population trying to fight off RHD. The coursing ban whilst not a panacea can't harm the situation."

He also mentioned that the ban was not likely to see major resistance and in fact would be viewed favourably by most of the public. One thing he kept repeating was that this was a" whole of government effort." Not sure what that even means to be honest.

I mentioned the vaccine but he quoted some French study which found vaccines ineffectual for this issue.

Are his findings based on research in the UK or here in Ireland?

Eddie B

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe that it's not licenced for use here.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. With such a major risk to a native species, surely the government would rush in said licence

Eddie B

Eddie B wrote: »

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. With such a major risk to a native species, surely the government would rush in said licence

With so many TDs wanting to see an end to greyhound racing and coursing, I doubt it’ll be approved any time soon.

Eddie B

Deleted User wrote: »

With so many TDs wanting to see an end to greyhound racing and coursing, I doubt it’ll be approved any time soon.

A of course! Very valid point

solarwinds

Sure that would be the next outrage if the government started wasting money on vaccines for animals, at the cost of the homeless or god forbid cutting the dole to fund it. There wouldn't be as much love for the hare as there appears to be now, well for these few weeks anyway until they latch on to something else and become overnight experts.

Capercaillie

solarwinds wrote: »

Sure that would be the next outrage if the government started wasting money on vaccines for animals, at the cost of the homeless or god forbid cutting the dole to fund it. There wouldn't be as much love for the hare as there appears to be now, well for these few weeks anyway until they latch on to something else and become overnight experts.

Coursing clubs perhaps should start a fundraiser for cost of vaccinations.

Capercaillie

Capercaillie wrote: »

Coursing clubs perhaps should start a fundraiser for cost of vaccinations.

I’m sure that they would gladly do that. But if the vaccine isn’t licensed, then there’s no point.

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

Coursing clubs perhaps should start a fundraiser for cost of vaccinations.

Don't think it would be fair to expect the coursing clubs to do all the work. Maybe environmentalist groups, animal welfare groups etc, could do something productive to help.

solarwinds

What coursing clubs sure aren't you having them shut down, who will look after the hare population then ?

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

Don't think it would be fair to expect the coursing clubs to do all the work. Maybe environmentalist groups, animal welfare groups etc, could do something productive to help.

Coursing clubs keep hares together in unnatural high densities so it would exponentially increase rate of spread of a highly virulent disease. They would be the cause of increased risk and should be the ones responsible for vaccination!

Eddie B

Capercaillie wrote: »

Coursing clubs keep hares together in unnatural high densities so it would exponentially increase rate of spread of a highly virulent disease. They would be the cause of increased risk and should be the ones responsible for vaccination!

They also have the only means to vaccinate against the virus. What other alternatiives are there, apart from what has been happening before now. I.E do nothing, and pretend the virus doesn't exist here.

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

Coursing clubs perhaps should start a fundraiser for cost of vaccinations.

But you said:

Capercaillie wrote: »

Laissez faire attitude to RHD ain't going to limit the disease. Laissez faire attitude is what has species like curlew/corncrake/hen harrier on the brink.

Capercaillie wrote: »

They would be the cause of increased risk and should be the ones responsible for vaccination!

So which is it? Either the Government are responsible for protecting them or the club(s) are?

Also according to our "insider" the Government's attitude, which has consensus, is:

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

I mentioned the vaccine but he quoted some French study which found vaccines ineffectual for this issue.

So if the clubs are to be held responsible then the Government have no business banning the sport and should immediately reverse this ban and allow the clubs to deal with it.

If the Laissez faire approach is to be ignored then the onus is on the Government to maintain the ban, but put into action some sort of working program to combat this and not just ban a sport and hope the situation resolves itself.

Capercaillie

solarwinds wrote: »

What coursing clubs sure aren't you having them shut down, who will look after the hare population then ?

Coursing clubs are the only one looking after hares?

solarwinds

Are you? Is anyone else in D4?

solarwinds

For a person who claims to be an active conservationist, you seem to be pretty handy with the round up. A chemical known to be instrumental in the decimation of bees and pollinatorsaround the world, so on one hand lets protect the hares and birds and corncrakes but on the other spray the countryside with toxins.

Capercaillie

I maintain traditional hay meadows with a high red clover content for great yellow bumblebee. I also sow phacelia and kale for them, prespraying beforehand......

Capercaillie

solarwinds wrote: »

Are you? Is anyone else in D4?

High densities of Iris hare on my farm. Early cover areas like nettles provide excellent protection for leverets. Great feeding in the species rich hay meadows. Mowing is centre-out from mid-September at earliest. Fox control: lamping, digging out any nearby dens also assists hares........

Capercaillie

Cass wrote: »

But you said:


So which is it? Either the Government are responsible for protecting them or the club(s) are?

Also according to our "insider" the Government's attitude, which has consensus, is:


So if the clubs are to be held responsible then the Government have no business banning the sport and should immediately reverse this ban and allow the clubs to deal with it.

If the Laissez faire approach is to be ignored then the onus is on the Government to maintain the ban, but put into action some sort of working program to combat this and not just ban a sport and hope the situation resolves itself.

You might have missed this post "Coursing clubs keep hares together in unnatural high densities so it would exponentially increase rate of spread of a highly virulent disease". One biggest thing we could do in stopping further spread is stopping this practice. Would you not agree?

knipex

Cass wrote: »

As it's been around since 1995 so does anyone believe it only "jumped" to Hares in the last couple of months, just after the RTE program?

Also its called RHD (Rabbit). No HHD.

Cass

To be fair RHD was discovered in Rabbits in Ireland in 1995 but no infection was ever found in Hares.

RHD mutated to a new strain called RHD2 which is relatively new in the British Islands.

RHD2 is actually more virulant but has far lower mortality that RHD. Quoted Survival rates vary but between 70 to 95% survival seems typical (RHD on the other hand had original survival rates of between 0 and 5% before resistant built) although significant and long term liver damage has been noted in the surving population.

The other problem is that unlike RHD RHD2 has crossed into hares and mortality in hares appears to be higher than in Rabbits. Exact mortality is unknown but its estimated between 30% and 50% will die.

No one knows how long RH2 2 has been in Ireland, but to my knowledge the first laboratory proven case was in the last 12 months and the first in hares in the last 6

The biggest issue is diagnosis. Because survival rates are so high many outbreaks in rabbits may not have been noticed, let alone reported and those have been noted, symptoms look like mixi or RHD.

Hares in the wild are relatively isolationist so the spread is contained but when held together is spreads rapidly. Hence the concern about coursing.

Cass this isn't a conspiracy, some very genuine people are very worried about the potential impact on the hare population. I'm not talking about anti hunting fanatics or vegans but genuine normal people.

Vaccinating wild populations doesn't work. You will never get a high enough percentage to ensure herd immunity and their fast breeding ensures that remains the case.

solarwinds

Capercaillie wrote: »

solarwinds wrote: »

Are you? Is anyone else in D4?

High densities of Iris hare on my farm. Early cover areas like nettles provide excellent protection for leverets. Great feeding in the species rich hay meadows. Mowing is centre-out from mid-September at earliest. Fox control: lamping, digging out any nearby dens also assists hares........

So you are farming hares in a high density on your property?. You doing a bit of coursing on the sly.

kunekunesika

Well knipex
Thanks for that info, that would explain what we've been seeing on the ground.