Disease in hares and rabbits

solarwinds

Is it rabbits or hares you want to defend ?, the most humane way to control rabbit numbers is through hunting and maintaining a healthy population in an area, the alternative is leave them unchecked watch the numbers to use your own word explode and see what the outcome of that humane form of control is. A horrible painful cruel death and a total wipeout of the population for many years if not forever. Which is the more humane there do you think ?.
As for the hares well i would not believe all you read, no shortage of them around me all healthy. You dont think there is an ulterior motive there ?.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Cass wrote: »

First off you can leave that "bloodsport" nonsense at the door. Your anti hunting propaganda won't be tolerated on this forum.

Secondly Hare shooting has a season and only with a shotgun. Meaning the numbers of Hares shot would be miniscule compared to rabbits or other vermin species.

Lastly have you got numbers on the amount of Hares killed during coursing meetings, the total number shot during a season, the total Hare population and how the previous two sports impact that population number? If not then you're guessing and while you are entitled to your opinion, it's just that your opinion.

Calling ancient and graceful animals like rabbits vermin reveals your own bias.

I obviously dont have those figures. The only reason I know anything about this is my brother is a civil servant and he told me that they were introducing a ban to try and help the hare population recover. He has a masters in agricultural policy from Coventry so he'd be quite well informed on the topic.

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to figure out that putting stress on or killing a population struggling with an infectious disease isn't going to help matters.

solarwinds

Yes because that qualifies him as to what is going on in the real world lol. By that basis you would assume the SEAI know everything about renewables and are only staffed by experts in that field, I have yet to meet one of them who knew a heat pump from an oil boiler. And a more obstructive dept. i have yet to meet. Reading reports based on limited biased information and then citing those same reports as the reason for your actions is one thing and very easy done from a desk in Dublin. Maybe some of these experts would be best served buying a pair of wellies and going out into the country and see for themselves what is actually happening on the ground.
But i suppose its easier to read some Phd's student report from a nice warm office.

Cass

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Calling ancient and graceful animals like rabbits vermin reveals your own bias.

Showing your ignorance again.

Vermin - wild animals that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease

Type the word vermin into Google and tell what animal it shows in the picture?

As rabbits have no protection in the form of a season, under the wlidlife act, it is a commonly used and accepted colloquialism for Rabbits, Foxes, Mink, and other VERMIN species.

As for my bias. I'm pro hunting, on a hunting forum. Not rocket science to figure out where i stand on the matter.

I obviously dont have those figures.

So you are simply voicing an opinion with no facts or data to support your "argument". You should then post that it's a personal opinion with no factual basis.

The only reason I know anything about this is my brother is a civil servant and he told me that they were introducing a ban to try and help the hare population recover.

Very interesting post, and thank you for that.

It would seem our concern that this coursing ban is simply an attempt to ban a sport through back door channels when there is no legitimate reason for it [the ban] by any other means.

He has a masters in agricultural policy from Coventry so he'd be quite well informed on the topic.

Do not equate education with intelligence.

If your brother has any data would it not be better to support your argument with facts from him rather than baseless accusations?

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to figure out that putting stress on or killing a population struggling with an infectious disease isn't going to help matters.

So answer this. Why now? Why not 10 years ago when it was first diagnosed? Could it be linked to the bastardised and bias program on RTE a few months back that used decades old footage and portrayed it as recent, used a Vet that is engaged to the producer from RTE, and had an agenda from the outset?

270WIN

Some of these anti clowns wouldnt know a hare from a rabbit, but because they claim to have a superior intelligence, they are experts. No shortage of hares around here and rabbits making a comeback too by the way. This RHD is a con job and i hope the coursing clubs can see through that.

solarwinds

More populist nonsense that thrives on social media where no one bothers to fact check and treats it as gospel, but its ok because our government said it was true. Oh please because as we all know the only thing this government is interested in is photo shoots and bowing to the will of what is popular at the minute.

cookimonster

Pintman Paddy Losty have you or your brother ever seen the damage rabbits do to either crops or grass land?
Rabbits will eat off the fresh green grass out to three or more metres all around the edge of a field. Thats a sizeable amont of grass to lose either for direct grazing or for future silage. Earth bank destruction as well as damage to fields are another by product of this ancient and graceful animal. Which by the way is not native to this country.

What I always thought curious was that in the counties where hare coursing was popular and prevalent they always had a good healthy population of hares. Much like how the Victorians managed to maintain a healthy balanced population of wild foxes in the hay days of fox hunting.

Your point -

Anyway it doesn't take a genius to figure out that putting stress on or killing a population struggling with an infectious disease isn't going to help matters.

.... is a bit of an oxymoron. So we will stand back and allow a struggling population, be decimated by an 'infectious disease'....... is it not better to cut out the problem root and branch so as not to allow the spread to healthy populations?
There is nobody coming over the hill here with an antidote or vaccines if the Department so wished or thought there was a need to they would cull every single living rabbit or hare regardless of thier heath status

Capercaillie

270WIN wrote: »

Some of these anti clowns wouldnt know a hare from a rabbit, but because they claim to have a superior intelligence, they are experts. No shortage of hares around here and rabbits making a comeback too by the way. This RHD is a con job and i hope the coursing clubs can see through that.

RHD is a con job? So hares have not tested positive to RHD in Ireland in Ireland?

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

So hares have not tested positive to RHD in Ireland in Ireland?

Since when?

Eddie B

RHD is certainly no con job, that's for sure. Rabbit population's are being decimated around the country. That is not an exaggeration, indeed it's very real. The only argument here is, if RHD has as much an effect on hare numbers, as it does rabbit numbers? Are hare populations being wiped out like rabbit numbers have? Personally, I've read nothing to suggest this is so. Neither here, the UK, or anywhere else for that matter. This is not a new virus. It's been around for a long time now. It should be easy see if hare numbers are being affected.

270WIN

I didnt mean to say that RHD does not exist but its very strange that hares are now suffering from RHD when they were never mentioned as having it before.
NPWS are under severe pressure to ban coursing and to me this RHD scenario suits their agenda perfectly.

BryanL

The Pet trade imported and spread this disease to rabbits and Hares. No one looked to stop them, not the Dept. of Agriculture or the NPWS, you'd have to ask why. Your civili servant brother with the Agri. degree could have helped a few years back maybe.

Coursing and hunting, haven't caused this.

So far there has only been isolated case reports in Hares , so it's not having any large effect on the population. In countries like France where it has existed in for a few years it hasn't greatly effected Hare numbers.

Antis are only looking for a coursing ban, not a solution to the disease in Hares or rabbits says a lot about them. B

Capercaillie

BryanL wrote: »

The Pet trade imported and spread this disease to rabbits and Hares. No one looked to stop them, not the Dept. of Agriculture or the NPWS, you'd have to ask why. Your civili servant brother with the Agri. degree could have helped a few years back maybe.

Coursing and hunting, haven't caused this.

So far there has only been isolated case reports in Hares , so it's not having any large effect on the population. In countries like France where it has existed in for a few years it hasn't greatly effected Hare numbers.

Antis are only looking for a coursing ban, not a solution to the disease in Hares or rabbits says a lot about them. B

Would having a large number of confined stressed hares, being kept at high densities, constitute a significant risk in spreading the disease?

Cass

Eddie B wrote: »

It's been around for a long time now. .

270WIN wrote: »

....... but its very strange that hares are now suffering from RHD when they were never mentioned as having it before.

It was first seen in 1995 here. A year or two earlier in the UK and across 38 other European countries in the decade before.

NPWS are under severe pressure to ban coursing and to me this RHD scenario suits their agenda perfectly.

Exactly the point.

This virus has been around for over a quarter of a century, but less than 5 months after an RTE hatchet job on Greyhound racing/coursing and all of a sudden it's vital for the survival of Hares that such sports are prohibited.

A few years back there was a really bad winter with temperatures dropping to -15. We (the shooting community) lobbied the NPWS and Dept of Agri/AHGA to suspend the season for game birds to protect them from increased hardship. They done nothing.

So the various clubs, NARGC, and individuals decided to impose a self ban and in a rare moment of unity the shooting community came together to place the health of the sport and our quarry above our desire to hunt. Soon after, and having got wind of how this would play out in the media the same Gov. Dpts, and the NPWS suspended the shooting season.

So only with an obvious and real threat to the population (not some exaggerated one) and because of how it looks politically was action taken.

The same is happening with HAres. Having 25 years to address this, combat it, or even try to work with the coursing/shooting groups on a solution they ignore it and allow things to carry on.

Roll on the age of social media, virtue signalling, political appeasement of minorities, and a biased Government "news" channel and they [Gov] lay the grounds for a future ban by broadcasting a horrible and false program on coursing where the participants were personally involved and some months later they get their ban.

You think this is tin foil hat stuff? Ask yourself is the timing of the RTE program and the ban coincidental?

BryanL

Capercaillie wrote: »

Would having a large number of confined stressed hares, being kept at high densities, constitute a significant risk in spreading the disease?

Hares are kept under veterinary supervision at coursing meets. They display no evidence of stress.

A Hare running is like a bird flying away from you, it's not an unnatural state for them and throughout their lives the will excape and evade. A galloping Hare is not in a noxious state. They don't live a risk free life in the wild. From birth they escape and evade death, daily, sometimes a few times a day.

Healthy Hares kept in quarrintine would be safe from infection, unlike in the wild where this diease is spreading.

Netted Hares are caught singly. It's not big step to keep them seperate and observed for signs of disease.

270WIN

I know rabbits suffered from RHD but i didnt realise hares ever got it???. There are more and more hares being killed on the roads around me every year but no one makes a fuss over it. Do you think the antis will give a hoot about hare welfare if they get coursing banned? I dont think so. I am not a coursing man but my area if well populated with hares and the reason why is the local coursing men look after them. Coursing banned... who will look after them??

Eddie B

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a vaccine for RHD. Why don't the coursing clubs suggest that they vaccinate every hare that they net. They would be actually protecting our hares from this deadly virus.

knipex

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Calling ancient and graceful animals like rabbits vermin reveals your own bias.

Have you ever seen what rabbits can do to land ??

A few years ago the rabbit population got out of hand here. They destroyed land, the burrowed everywhere which killed grass and caused ground to collapse breaking animals legs.

The stripped grass, I know one farmer who calculated he got 20% of his regular crop in some fields. They wiped out hundreds of acres of 3 and 4 year old trees by stripping bark. Anyone growing vegetables had their harvests virtually wiped out..

Eventually the population got so high the mixi wiped them out. For a couple of weeks thee were zombie or dead rabbits everywhere. Big swollen eyes half starved, horrible horrible death. Myself and a few neighbors went out to pick them off the road one weekend, collected over over 100 in a few hours..

Took 5 years before I saw A rabbit again. Now we all shoot them, keeps the population in control, no more mixi, minimal damage and I can still look out my kitchen window and see 3 or 4 rabbits eating grass in my back lawn..

Look at the damage rabbits have done around the works. they have created deserts. They are a pest.

Eddie B

Like many other species. When numbers are unnaturally high, they can become a big problem. Small, healthy populations don't do much damage. To be honest, I miss seeing rabbits in my area. The fields look very empty without them.

Capercaillie

BryanL wrote: »

Hares are kept under veterinary supervision at coursing meets. They display no evidence of stress.

A Hare running is like a bird flying away from you, it's not an unnatural state for them and throughout their lives the will excape and evade. A galloping Hare is not in a noxious state. They don't live a risk free life in the wild. From birth they escape and evade death, daily, sometimes a few times a day.

Healthy Hares kept in quarrintine would be safe from infection, unlike in the wild where this diease is spreading.

Netted Hares are caught singly. It's not big step to keep them seperate and observed for signs of disease.

Hares kept under supervision by Department of Agriculture vets who would have practically no clinical skills. Prey animals like rabbits/hares do not show outward signs of stress/illness until they are invariably seriously ill.

A wild animal netted and kept in unnatural high densities would be stressed, especially a prey animal. You ever load up cattle, transport them, then mix different stock from different farms and keep at high stocking densities: end result is disease....

Are each individual hare kept in quarantine individually for a time period which is greater than the incubation period for RHD? No they are not..

Capercaillie

Eddie B wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a vaccine for RHD. Why don't the coursing clubs suggest that they vaccinate every hare that they net. They would be actually protecting our hares from this deadly virus.

Cost would be a factor, can cost 80 euros+ for a myxi vaccine for your rabbit. RHD would be even more expensive I would guess! If coursing clubs want to continue they may do it!

Cass

Cass wrote: »

Capercaillie wrote: »

RHD is a con job? So hares have not tested positive to RHD in Ireland in Ireland?

Since when?

Just in case you missed it above, and seeing as how you are answering everyone else's post.

solarwinds

You won't see any positive action on this until the rabbits start burrowing and eating some Dept heads golf course. Vaccines a plenty.

Capercaillie

Cass wrote: »

No hassle. BTW its an explanation, not advice. If anything else needs explaining to you feel free to ask.

So back to the question. Since when? You're so concerned with this why is it now that it's an issue and not for the last 25 years?

RVD not in the Country for last 25 years. Since it is here now biosecurity measures have to be instigated, unless you want it to spread. Look at the debacle with fresh water crayfish plague.........

solarwinds

If the dept. gave a damn about the hare population here which is apparently now under serious threat?. Why not use the vaccines they have to treat the problem and get rid of it saving the hares. Banning coursing is not curing anything, animals will still die and then we still have no hares. So tell me how does banning a sport save the hare population ?
Or do i have to wait for the next facebook post on the subject before you get an answer to that one?

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

RVD not in the Country for last 25 years.

What is RVD? Do you mean RHD/RCD/VHD?

Yes it is here that long, in Rabbits. First seen in 1995 almost three years after it was first seen in the UK.

Since it is here now

Already here, so again i'll ask you why the sudden interest in tackling this now. Not that doing so is a bad thing, but why has it been largely ignored until such a time as it suited an agenda to ban coursing?

biosecurity measures have to be instigated,

Which are what exactly?

unless you want it to spread.

Why would anyone want that?

Look at the debacle with fresh water crayfish plague.........

I know nothing about this.

Capercaillie

RVD is typo. RHD only discovered in wild recently, from an epidemiological point of view that is more significant. Laissez faire attitude to RHD ain't going to limit the disease. Laissez faire attitude is what has species like curlew/corncrake/hen harrier on the brink.

Google fresh water crayfish plague to get understanding how laissez faire management to disease control works.

Pintman Paddy Losty

I spoke with my brother last night and he said the reasoning for the ban was "at this critical juncture when the hare population is literally on a knife edge, you don't want additional stressors on the population trying to fight off RHD. The coursing ban whilst not a panacea can't harm the situation."

He also mentioned that the ban was not likely to see major resistance and in fact would be viewed favourably by most of the public. One thing he kept repeating was that this was a" whole of government effort." Not sure what that even means to be honest.

I mentioned the vaccine but he quoted some French study which found vaccines ineffectual for this issue.

Cass

Capercaillie wrote: »

RVD is typo.

Fair enough.

RHD only discovered in wild recently

Nope. In 1995.

Laissez faire attitude to RHD ain't going to limit the disease.

Governmental interference is not, not wanted, it never came when it was needed. The virtual signalling response to it now is a bid to be seen to be doing something while completing an agenda of closing an unwanted section of a sport people don't like due to a bastardised and biased report.

As for Curlew, Corncrake, Crayfish, etc. i have little knowledge of them, never shot, hunted, or fished for them, and can say fairly certainly i never will. I'll definitely read up on it, but won't comment on something i've no understanding on.

Capercaillie

Was referring to RHD in Irish Hare not rabbits.