Woman convicted for false rape allegation against 12 men in Cyprus (Overturned in Jan22)

Holly13

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The case wasn’t about determining whether or not the young woman had been the victim of rape. It was about determining whether or not the prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was guilty of the charge of public mischief.

But wasn’t the charge of Public Mischief brought against her for lying to police and wasting their time?
So it is not that different to the Unbelievable case. That’s why the girl in that case was convicted aswell - for lying and wasting police time.
But she wasn’t lying - there were just inconsistencies in her statements because she couldn’t remember exact details and sequences of events

One eyed Jack

Holly13 wrote: »

But wasn’t the charge of Public Mischief brought against her for lying to police and wasting their time?
So it is not that different to the Unbelievable case. That’s why the girl in that case was convicted aswell - for lying and wasting police time.
But she wasn’t lying - there were just inconsistencies in her statements because she couldn’t remember exact details and sequences of events

That’s precisely why I didn’t compare cases, because even though they share similarities, they’re completely different cases. I don’t know whether she was or wasn’t lying or telling the truth about being raped, and neither do you, but that’s not what this case was about. It was about whether or not she was guilty of the charge of public mischief.

The gray bird

One of my mates sent me the video going back a few months of her having sex with at least 3 of them she was quite drunk but so were they.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The case wasn’t about determining whether or not the young woman had been the victim of rape. It was about determining whether or not the prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was guilty of the charge of public mischief.

But whether or not she was raped is pretty intrinsically linked to whether she was guilty of public mischief, no? She pretty much wasn't allowed any defense against the charge

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

But whether or not she was raped is pretty intrinsically linked to whether she was guilty of public mischief, no? She pretty much wasn't allowed any defense against the charge

No, whether or not she was raped are a completely separate set of circumstances as to whether or not she was guilty of public mischief for making a complaint to the authorities that she had been raped, and then withdrawing her complaint. I understand the circumstances were unfortunate, and I’d be as troubled by the circumstances as the Judge in the case, which is why I said that a suspended sentence upon conviction seemed reasonable.

Holly13

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, whether or not she was raped are a completely separate set of circumstances as to whether or not she was guilty of public mischief for making a complaint to the authorities that she had been raped, and then withdrawing her complaint. I understand the circumstances were unfortunate, and I’d be as troubled by the circumstances as the Judge in the case, which is why I said that a suspended sentence upon conviction seemed reasonable.

Or, not guilty seems reasonable, considering the fact she was charged in the first place is dodgy as hell.

suicide_circus

mlem123 wrote: »

Whether she lied or not, she should have been entitled to due process, legal representation, and a fair trial, and there is evidence that she received neither

Why are the UK not making a bigger diplomatic issue out of this?

One eyed Jack

Holly13 wrote: »

Or, not guilty seems reasonable, considering the fact she was charged in the first place is dodgy as hell.

I understand why you think it was dodgy, I disagree though on the basis that the prosecution were able to provide sufficient evidence of her guilt to be able to convince the Cypriot Courts that she was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It was the young woman herself was on trial, not the Cypriot police who investigated her complaint, nor the 12 men who were detained in relation to her complaint.

Silentcorner

This is a very odd case....normally there is little to no evidence in these kinds of cases.

If there is a video of the incident surely it would not only exonerate the woman it would nail all the men involved.

I mean, I could believe that local cops decided to stitch up a woman for some reason, as unlikely as that seems, but if there is a video of the incident that is something that could damage the reputation of the entire country, that could literally lead to all kinds of resignations...

Imagine the international outrage in this day and age, if a video of a woman being raped made its way into the media.

I'd have an open mind, not that it matters, but these cases are going to become more and more prevalent in the coming years, it generates huge emotions in people it will test our judicial system, no one has the answers.

paleoperson

Silentcorner wrote: »

If there is a video of the incident surely it would not only exonerate the woman it would nail all the men involved.

What sort of logic is that? Couldn't the video equally exonerate all the men involved and nail the woman?

Eric Cartman

paleoperson wrote: »

What sort of logic is that? Couldn't the video equally exonerate all the men involved and nail the woman?

thats exactly what it did do....

paleoperson

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats exactly what it did do....

Good thing they had the evidence then. Imagine how all of those men could have had their lives ruined forever by this girl's lies, she should definitely be in jail if that is the case.

It's shameful if she's being let off for reasons of international relations or tourism.

Silentcorner

paleoperson wrote: »

What sort of logic is that? Couldn't the video equally exonerate all the men involved and nail the woman?

Like I said, it is an odd one...there is a lot of fuss over a woman who has claimed she was raped but little or no fuss over the video that would implicate all the men she has accused...I mean, she has received a lot of sympathetic media coverage...I am assuming people in the media are aware of the existence of a recording...

So either the media (and all her supporters) are ignoring the existence of a video or the Cypriot Police are ignoring it....

It really is rare that an incident such as this would be recorded...I certainly can't remember a case like it!

paleoperson

I am speechless on how to respond to your post. Take that as you will.

Nobody is "ignoring" or "not causing a fuss" over the video. The video is a huge deal, I don't know why you think it's not. It's pornographic and private, so obviously can't be officially in public and neither can it be talked about like that.

Silentcorner

paleoperson wrote: »

I am speechless on how to respond to your post. Take that as you will.

Nobody is "ignoring" or "not causing a fuss" over the video. The video is a huge deal, I don't know why you think it's not. It's pornographic and private, so obviously can't be officially in public and neither can it be talked about like that.

Relax...

I am well aware the existence of a video is vital.

It just seems strange that she is receiving a lot of sympathetic media coverage when everyone must know that a video recording exists....that video recording either exonerates her or the men she has accused.

There is much online about the nature of her questioning, her access to a solicitor etc etc...but very little about a video.

It's almost like a vital piece of evidence doesn't exist!!

Bigbagofcans

Holly13 wrote: »

There are people on this thread saying they have seen “the video” of this girl smiling into the camera and naked and whatever....and therefore these TWELVE boys are obviously completely innocent and she’s a false accuser etc. I’m paraphrasing here, but that’s the jist.
As a side note, why anyone would watch a video of a gang rape is beyond me.

After all the gang rapes in India in recent times, 'gang rape' is one of the top results on porn sites in India. Truly sickening.

Atlantic Dawn

An update she was cleared of making false claims of gang rape. No mention of when the new trial starts for the accused parties.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2022/0131/1276929-cyprus-court-case/

anewme

I have just read about this on another media outlet.

It has been acknowledged that the victim was not given a fair trial.

Given today's result, the thread title needs to be changed.

Ten of Swords

Thread title updated

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112201161#Comment_112201161

The problem we're now facing in society, is that we are (quite rightly) giving rape accusations the seriousness that they deserve in society. But mostly only from the victim's perspective.

Society is failing to recognize the seriousness of these accusations from the (alleged) perpetrator's perspective.

While in theory the accused is "innocent until proven guilty", in practice that is not really how these cases are playing out in the court of public opinion.

In order to give the accuser the benefit of the doubt that they are honestly reporting a crime, we have arrived at a very tricky scenario in society. We have to assume on the balance of probabilities, that the accused is probably guilty.

It's very hard to find that middle ground, between believing the potential victim so that all victims can have the confidence to report these crimes, and also protecting the reputation of the accused so their life is not completely ruined merely by the accusation alone.

If we recognize the seriousness of the alleged crime (which we rightly do), then it surely must follow that we recognize the seriousness of making the allegation as well? If you're found to have made false allegations, that should have very serious consequences. Not just a slap on the wrist for wasting police time.

Mason Greenwood, the footballer, is a prime example in the news recently. You can see the lynch mob are out in force already. They want him sacked from his job, made an example of and generally treated like a criminal... but the problem is, they want all of this to occur RIGHT NOW. Not after he's had his day in court, not even after he's been charged with the crime.

In many people's eyes, the accusation in and of itself, is enough to convict someone in the court of public opinion.

And public opinion is no small thing. It can heavily influence any subsequent court case, but more importantly it can cause irreparable damage to a person's reputation for the rest of their life. Even if they're found to be not guilty of the crime.

Some feminists and women's aid groups, seem to have the attitude that these people are acceptable casualties in the fight to protect women from violence. I disagree with this. We should not be prepared to accept innocent people's lives being destroyed in order to protect another group or demographic in society.

Unfortunately, that's the situation we seem to be in right now in society. Between a rock and hard place.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563672#Comment_118563672

You’re doing the very thing you’re arguing against, in arguing that public opinion should be regarded as having the same authority as the Courts. It doesn’t, it can’t, and it won’t.

It definitely won’t happen if this is the core of your argument -

If we recognize the seriousness of the alleged crime (which we rightly do), then it surely must follow that we recognize the seriousness of making the allegation as well? If you're found to have made false allegations, that should have very serious consequences. Not just a slap on the wrist for wasting police time.

You must surely be able to grasp that they are two very different offences? The Irish equivalent of the judgement in Cyprus would be attempting to pervert the course of justice (Perjury being a statutory offence is a recent development), quite distinct I think you’ll agree from the offence of rape?

A suspended sentence isn’t just a slap on the wrist, no matter how it is perceived by some people in the public acting as judge and jury. The seriousness of making false allegations is recognised, but that’s not what happened here as the allegations of rape were not false.

It’s not difficult to understand that what has the greatest impact on victims of rape making a complaint to the authorities, is the idea that they will not be believed, that justice as they see it will not be done, precisely because of the discrepancy in perception between rape as it is defined in law, and rape as the general public understand it.

Society isn’t failing to understand the seriousness of the allegations from the accused perspective at all, and there are a few people with a persecution complex have no difficulty whatsoever imagining themselves in the position of the accused.

Shao Kahn

If you're acquitted, say because their isn't enough evidence to convict you of rape... you avoid criminal consequences, but as a man you have to live the rest of your life with a question mark over your head.

And this happens very often. Not enough evidence to prove you're a rapist... but also not enough evidence for you to conclusively clear your name.

So, the accusation alone is enough to destroy a man's life forever. And not just the accusation, but the manner in which society treats accused parties. So, in practice, an alleged rapist is guilty until proven innocent.

It's not enough that we protect people's right to due process in a court room. We also have to do more to protect people's right not to have their reputation completely destroyed before they ever get in front of a judge/jury.

It's great that we're doing more to protect women from violence. (I mean that sincerely) But the manner in which we're doing it, is creating another group of innocent victims that almost nobody seems to give a toss about.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564365#Comment_118564365

I said it before on one of these threads, but The Hunt does an amazing job of showing the effects of stuff like this.