Budget 2020 new motor tax scale

mikeecho

Looks like imports are being hit with higher import taxes, and a new sliding scale for motor tax.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/major-changes-to-motor-tax-proposed-for-upcoming-budget-1.3959563

This as well as increased carbon tax on Fossil fuel.

Fun times ahead.

road_high

mikeecho wrote: »

Looks like imports are being hit with higher import taxes, and a new sliding scale for motor tax.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/major-changes-to-motor-tax-proposed-for-upcoming-budget-1.3959563

This as well as increased carbon tax on Fossil fuel.

Fun times ahead.

How depressing. Ultimately the law of diminishing returns is going to kick in pretty soon whereby the revenue gouchers will see a decrease in tax take as even buying/running a car will prove out of reach for many. If you lived in Dublin near good public transport and could make do without a car then you’d have to seriously consider the rationale for bothering with one anymore

road_high

The cuts to the hybrid and electric incentives are purely another money grab as more motorists make the switch then they have to protect the revenue steam at all costs. The taxation on motoring here really infuriates me given so many of us have no choice but to own a car

Atlantic Dawn

Not long before it will be an offence to use household electricity in an electric vehicle.

_Kaiser_

road_high wrote: »

The cuts to the hybrid and electric incentives are purely another money grab as more motorists make the switch then they have to protect the revenue steam at all costs. The taxation on motoring here really infuriates me given so many of us have no choice but to own a car

Is anyone really surprised?

The free ride for electric was never going to be maintained in the long run as they start to gain traction in the national fleet.

Except they still make up only a tiny percentage. This move will likely significantly stifle adoption until the next budget starts to proactively punish ICE owners for needing a car and not having tens of thousands to replace it with one that may not meet their needs.

It happened overnight in 2008 for petrol cars. It'll happen again.

kirving

Toyota's legendary reliabliliy aside, Hybrid systems are very complicated relative to a normal ICE car.

My view on it would be that the current VRT reduction provides a little insurance against things going wrong, while also encouraging people in the right direction. Increasing VRT before mainstream adoption is cynical and totally disingenuous - but that's nothing new.

I bought a Hybrid last time, I may as well buy a diesel next time at this rate.

Reminds me of Fianna Fail reinstating duty on bio-ethanol, having previously granted a €5k VRT rebate to buyers. E85 cars could have been excluded from the CO2 based Motor Tax rates too, but that didn't happen either. Despite the fact it's carbon neutral and commonplace in Scandinavia and France, and costs around €0.50c/L.

ednwireland

The strategy group says motor tax receipts for passenger cars have been falling in the last five years due to the lower emissions of newer cars. The average tax receipt per car has fallen from €466 in 2014 to an estimated €342 this year.

this is the big problem for the government and they need to keep there revenue stream and if more people buy electrics theyll need to charge those (pun wasnt intended but i'll take it !) , i expect to see an electricity surcharge in the next few years as well to make up the revenue shortfall.

BonnieSituation

My Carina turns 30 next April. They better not touch the €56 job.

hi5

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Not long before it will be an offence to use household electricity in an electric vehicle.

You'll probably need a special meter like Night Save.
I could also see where if you produce your own electricity from solar/wind etc, then you would be obliged to pay a tax on that, just as you pay tax if you produce your own biodiesel from rape seed or chip shop oil.

wowy

https://assets.gov.ie/19116/c447474fea5e422080a6384b7a84fbed.pdf

The paper is here (from page 32 for Motor Tax). The proposal to abolish the EV & PHEV grants is costed against the proposed reduced VRT rate (see page 42), so even with the €5K relief gone, the VRT for the most efficient EVs and PHEVs will still be lower than currently.

Black_Knight

wowy wrote: »

https://assets.gov.ie/19116/c447474fea5e422080a6384b7a84fbed.pdf

The paper is here (from page 32 for Motor Tax). The proposal to abolish the EV & PHEV grants is costed against the proposed reduced VRT rate (see page 42), so even with the €5K relief gone, the VRT for the most efficient EVs and PHEVs will still be lower than currently.

Ireland currently has a well-developed infrastructure for electric vehicles ...

lol

carsfan2

I can’t see the SIMI being at all happy with these proposals. New car sales are down already. Lots of garages are struggling and this will only make new cars more expensive and buyers uncertain.
I’d say a lot of lobbying will go on.

Black_Knight

carsfan2 wrote: »

I can’t see the SIMI being at all happy with these proposals. New car sales are down already. Lots of garages are struggling and this will only make new cars more expensive and buyers uncertain.
I’d say a lot of lobbying will go on.

IMO, sales are down because the new car buyer is eyeing up the shift to electric cars. The type of car they want isn't available yet in electric form, or isn't at a price point they're able to meet, so they wait. The new changes would benefit electric and PHEV prices (from what i've read and understand), but the options are just too limited at the moment. Perhaps garages just aren't selling what the customer wants.

bazz26

Its that time of year where these "leaks" surface with an upcoming budget where these leaks are put out intentionally to gauge public reaction and condition people to expect the worse but be glad it wasn't as bad when budget time actually comes round. Also I've said it before but popular terms like Climate Change will just be used as a license to print money by the Government. The revenue stream from the motorist has to be protected and that their real strategy.

carsfan2

carsfan2 wrote: »

I can’t see the SIMI being at all happy with these proposals.

**** them

rireland

bazz26 wrote: »

Its that time of year where these "leaks" surface with an upcoming budget where these leaks are put out intentionally to gauge public reaction and condition people to expect the worse but be glad it wasn't as bad when budget time actually comes round. Also I've said it before but popular terms like Climate Change will just be used as a license to print money by the Government. The revenue stream from the motorist has to be protected and that their real strategy.

Yep exactly. They'll make minor tweaks here and there but by the time the budget comes around everyone knows what's happening so the outrage isn't there.

There's less outrage when it's leaked in the papers. You'll only get outrage if news is front page and reaches main story on radio/tv.

ml100

Black_Knight wrote: »

carsfan2 wrote: »

I can’t see the SIMI being at all happy with these proposals. New car sales are down already. Lots of garages are struggling and this will only make new cars more expensive and buyers uncertain.
I’d say a lot of lobbying will go on.

IMO, sales are down because the new car buyer is eyeing up the shift to electric cars. The type of car they want isn't available yet in electric form, or isn't at a price point they're able to meet, so they wait. The new changes would benefit electric and PHEV prices (from what i've read and understand), but the options are just too limited at the moment. Perhaps garages just aren't selling what the customer wants.

Sales are down because new cars have already got too expensive, the amount of people thinking about EV cars in the general population is very low, people are buying 1 year old ICE cars from the UK because new cars here are too expensive.

rivegauche

wowy wrote: »

https://assets.gov.ie/19116/c447474fea5e422080a6384b7a84fbed.pdf

The paper is here (from page 32 for Motor Tax). The proposal to abolish the EV & PHEV grants is costed against the proposed reduced VRT rate (see page 42), so even with the €5K relief gone, the VRT for the most efficient EVs and PHEVs will still be lower than currently.

If you are importing a car for which there is no NOx value they will assume it is exceeding limits and charge the maximum amount possible.
Bye-bye classic cars from the eighties, nineties and early noughties.



" For older vehicles where the NOx value is not stated on the documentation presented
to Revenue, it is reasonable that Revenue could require the person to obtain this information
from the car manufacturer. Failing the furnishing of such proofs it is reasonable that Revenue
could replicate section 132(3)(a)(II) of the Finance Act 1992 (as amended) to calculate the
surcharge amount, namely to select the NOx value which corresponds to the NOx value that
is at the highest threshold level from the Euro standards tables. "

terrydel

bazz26 wrote: »

Its that time of year where these "leaks" surface with an upcoming budget where these leaks are put out intentionally to gauge public reaction and condition people to expect the worse but be glad it wasn't as bad when budget time actually comes round. Also I've said it before but popular terms like Climate Change will just be used as a license to print money by the Government. The revenue stream from the motorist has to be protected and that their real strategy.

They are kite flying thru what has practically become the governments in-house newspaper, the irish times.

Eric Cartman

If it doesnt impact the pre 08 cars we might see a bit of a revival of pre 08 barges.

What would this mean for pre co2 imports ?

ShadowHearth

I presume it will kick in on all new cars sold, not the current ones? If so, nicer cars 1-4 years old will be quite in demand.
When all new wltp, new tax system, increase in vrt next year will hit, it's going to be even more expensive to buy new car.
Something tells me if you want something nice and not too old, then it's better to grab it now.

galwaytt

road_high wrote: »

The cuts to the hybrid and electric incentives are purely another money grab as more motorists make the switch then they have to protect the revenue steam at all costs. The taxation on motoring here really infuriates me given so many of us have no choice but to own a car

Indeed: Toyota Ireland CEO has made repeated noises in the Press and I'm sure beyond that 'something has to be done' to stem the tide of so-called 'dirty-diesels' coming in from the UK.

Well, he get is wish on that, but I bet he didn't see the carpet being pulled out from under his favoured drivetrain - Hybrid - by the Minister doing away with Hybrid incentives..........a case of being careful what you wish for I assume.

_Kaiser_

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If it doesnt impact the pre 08 cars we might see a bit of a revival of pre 08 barges.

What would this mean for pre co2 imports ?

You won't because pre-08 barges already have ridiculous tax rates, plus the insurers don't want to know (or try to price them out of the market) once they pass 10/11 years old.

They won't be coming back, except for those who could probably just absorb these mooted increases anyway.

sligo_dave

If the changes come in as speculated in July next year, will the period January to July be allowed as a buffer period where the more favourable rate will be applied whether it is new or old method?

In some cases (the lower CO2 bracket) it will result in lower cost from July and therefore would delay uptake in certain cases if this buffer period is not allowed for.

beggars_bush

And still noboby has thought of just having a flat rate of taxing cars based on engine size/CO2 and then apply carbon tax to the fuel
As in, the more you drive the more you pay model

road_high

Black_Knight wrote: »

IMO, sales are down because the new car buyer is eyeing up the shift to electric cars. The type of car they want isn't available yet in electric form, or isn't at a price point they're able to meet, so they wait. The new changes would benefit electric and PHEV prices (from what i've read and understand), but the options are just too limited at the moment. Perhaps garages just aren't selling what the customer wants.

It’s nothing to do with electric- it’s the price increases from the new emissions testing coupled with a weak sterling euro exchange making new car prices unaffordable. Suddenly Focus class cars with decent spec seem to be up to 30k to buy these days

Cee-Jay-Cee

I don’t understand why they’re faffing about with so many tax bands and trying to bring certain cars in a more favourable rate etc etc just scrap the two current systems and introduce one single tax per car. Something around €400 per vehicle per year regardless of how big or small is it would generate more money than the current systems and no one can complain as everyone pays the same rate. Set up a system similar to the TV licence where you can pay monthly if need be and absolutely hammer anyone caught driving with tax out longer than 1 month with an on the spot fine of €1000.

road_high

galwaytt wrote: »

Indeed: Toyota Ireland CEO has made repeated noises in the Press and I'm sure beyond that 'something has to be done' to stem the tide of so-called 'dirty-diesels' coming in from the UK.

Well, he get is wish on that, but I bet he didn't see the carpet being pulled out from under his favoured drivetrain - Hybrid - by the Minister doing away with Hybrid incentives..........a case of being careful what you wish for I assume.

The so called environmental case for hybrids is weak enough in reality vs a modern diesel still.

william o t

Good god almighty. Where does it end it this country with taxation...water, property, income, road, 50% on fuel etc etc etc.
The sooner some form of disruptive technology ie Volvo's car subscription service or similar becomes common place the better. Car ownership is becoming an unaffordable luxury in Ireland.

freshpopcorn

Remember we sent a clear message to the government in May #GreenWave.

corks finest

road_high wrote: »

The cuts to the hybrid and electric incentives are purely another money grab as more motorists make the switch then they have to protect the revenue steam at all costs. The taxation on motoring here really infuriates me given so many of us have no choice but to own a car

FG are weak/ greedy/ inept,pls go away

Eric Cartman

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You won't because pre-08 barges already have ridiculous tax rates, plus the insurers don't want to know (or try to price them out of the market) once they pass 10/11 years old.

They won't be coming back, except for those who could probably just absorb these mooted increases anyway.

1800 is not 2350 or 2500 though

tanko

What would this mean for my 2001 diesel Passat??
I'm hoping to get another 20 years out of it.

Atlantic Dawn

Interesting article, perhaps we should reduce the motor tax on the older cars to keep them running and save CO2 emissions...

Interestingly, the input-outpout analysis suggests that the gas and electricity used by the auto industry itself, including all the component manufacturers as well as the assembly plant, accounts for less than 12% of the total. The rest is spread across everything from metal extraction (33%), rubber manufacture (3%) and the manufacture of tools and machines (5%) through to business travel and stationary for car company employees.

The upshot is that – despite common claims to contrary – the embodied emissions of a car typically rival the exhaust pipe emissions over its entire lifetime. Indeed, for each mile driven, the emissions from the manufacture of a top-of-the-range Land Rover Discovery that ends up being scrapped after 100,000 miles may be as much as four times higher than the tailpipe emissions of a Citroen C1.

With this in mind, unless you do very high mileage or have a real gas-guzzler, it generally makes sense to keep your old car for as long as it is reliable – and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50%, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

_Brian

beggars_bush wrote: »

And still noboby has thought of just having a flat rate of taxing cars based on engine size/CO2 and then apply carbon tax to the fuel
As in, the more you drive the more you pay model

No.
That just punishes people who live in rural areas more than those in urban areas but the urban dwellers get public transport too.

Phileas Frog

I notice some bands are decreasing in VRT rates

sligo_dave

Phileas Frog wrote: »

I notice some bands are decreasing in VRT rates

Rightly so, but to encourage an actual change in new car sales there should be a retention of the current vrt rebates/incentives for bev and phev new car sales for a fixed timescale, say 2 years, to retain a low purchase price for cars which are in the lowest bands. To achieve change in the future, the incentives need to be there to encourage sufficient uptake so the second hand market can have better availability in the coming years.
With improving efficiencies of scale to be obtained from ev production along with improvements in technology and more competition in the ev sector, this should lead to reduced purchase prices in time when the incentives end. It is a kickstart of the change if targets for 2030 are to be within a donkeys roar of being met.

Clareman

Whatever about the VRT rates the carbon tax is a major kick in the hole for commuters, I'd love to be able to leave the car at home and use public transport but it's not possible because the public transport isn't there, adding ~20c is another tenner a week that I'll no choice but to give over

road_high

william o t wrote: »

Good god almighty. Where does it end it this country with taxation...water, property, income, road, 50% on fuel etc etc etc.
The sooner some form of disruptive technology ie Volvo's car subscription service or similar becomes common place the better. Car ownership is becoming an unaffordable luxury in Ireland.

It really is. VRT is daylight robbery.
Ive only heard a little about the Volvo subs scheme in the US - you pay a monthly subscription and get into a new car service etc all in. Would the VRT still be built into the price though?

Marcusm

terrydel wrote: »

They are kite flying thru what has practically become the governments in-house newspaper, the irish times.

They are official papers issued by the Dept of Finance!

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

They are official papers issued by the Dept of Finance!

+1, the direct source is the Department of Finance Tax Strategy Group 04/19 Climate Action and Tax paper, see page 32 onwards.

Phileas Frog

Marcusm wrote: »

They are official papers issued by the Dept of Finance!

It's still kite flying, seeing how the _proposals_ are received.

beggars_bush

I'm all for carbon taxes, but let's do it in a way that motorists can plan for the next 5 years.
Moderate increase every year and people can save their deposits for EV cars and the motoring industry know to wind down selling diesel cars
And hybrid should be a viable alternative

I actually saw a queue of EVs at a charging point yesterday on the way from the west to Dublin

Every town along a major road will need a bank of 10+ charging points in order to meet demand

R.O.R

Phileas Frog wrote: »

I notice some bands are decreasing in VRT rates

That's because Co2 emissions are increasing.

Had the details on a 5 Series to hand. Currently, the 520d SE has Co2 emissions of 117g, so falls in to the 17% VRT Bracket. The 1% Diesel Levy takes it to 18% this year.

Under WLTP2 the Co2 emissions go to 141g and based on the table linked in the OP, that would fall under the 18% VRT category, so no change there.

Biggest losers are going to be SUV's - some huge increases in Co2 emissions on those, which aren't going to be offset by the bands changing.

jmreire

beggars_bush wrote: »

And still noboby has thought of just having a flat rate of taxing cars based on engine size/CO2 and then apply carbon tax to the fuel
As in, the more you drive the more you pay model

That would make sense, but no, because this way, they have it both ways......both on the tax AND the fuel.

galwaytt

road_high wrote: »

The so called environmental case for hybrids is weak enough in reality vs a modern diesel still.

Indeed, but you're comparing the wrong thing. We can assume diesel is effectively dead for he most part, esp low-milers and urban driving.

So, the real comparison is Hybrid vs EV. And, because EV isn't going to work for a huge cohort of this country due to range & charging issues, not to mention price, especially as they become more common, then the pulling the rug from under them makes no sense at all.

mgn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Remember we sent a clear message to the government in May #GreenWave.

A few Mickey Mouse Councillors and 2 MEPs.Wait and see what the will get in the next election.Hopefully the next election will be after the budget and when people see how much this greenwave is going to cost them it will be more like a little ripple.

mgn

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'm all for carbon taxes, but let's do it in a way that motorists can plan for the next 5 years.
Moderate increase every year and people can save their deposits for EV cars and the motoring industry know to wind down selling diesel cars
And hybrid should be a viable alternative

I actually saw a queue of EVs at a charging point yesterday on the way from the west to Dublin

Every town along a major road will need a bank of 10+ charging points in order to meet demand

I bet you live in a city.

road_high

mgn wrote: »

A few Mickey Mouse Councillors and 2 MEPs.Wait and see what the will get in the next election.Hopefully the next election will be after the budget and when see how much this greenwave is going to cost them it will be more like a little ripple.

The green wave is grand in theory and makes the middle classes feel all warm fussy inside and morally superior- but wait until the new taxes hit home and the dopey cnuts will have to give up their new Tucsons
That’s all these rubbish ever was- a revenue generating exercise

terrydel

road_high wrote: »

It really is. VRT is daylight robbery.
Ive only heard a little about the Volvo subs scheme in the US - you pay a monthly subscription and get into a new car service etc all in. Would the VRT still be built into the price though?

As its a registration tax I'd assume it would have to be.

terrydel

Phileas Frog wrote: »

It's still kite flying, seeing how the _proposals_ are received.

Exactly, and they have the IT in their back pocket these days so thats their medium of choice.