NBP part II

Orebro

Was hoping this would get signed before the Dail was back, as Timmy is bound to make plenty of noise on it otherwise.

Anyway I agree, we've gone way to far with this process to back out now.

theguzman

The optimist in me hopes this will get the go ahead, the realist however knows Ireland is far too corrupt for anything as sensible as this to go ahead.

Privately I think they are trying to can it as the storm clouds are gathering on the near Horizon, Brexit is but a mere distraction from what is already being dubbed "the Greatest Recession" as experts can see the global economy collapsing within the next 12 months on a scale much worse than the GFC of 2008 or the 1929-1930's great depression. Various predictions vary from 2008esque all the way to World War Three before normality will return.

KOR101

Doubtful on the budget IMO....

While the report is non-binding, the Fine Gael-led Government could be forced to face a vote or a debate on the controversial recommendations in the Dáil. The issue may also feed into budget talks with Fianna Fáil — who are relied on for support under the confidence and supply agreement.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/isolated-houses-could-pay-more-for-broadband-946400.html

KOR101

There is “no justification” for the new broadband network to be owned by a “minority investor” instead of the State, an Oireachtas committee report due to be released today has found.

The Oireachtas committee on communications has compiled a report into the €3 billion national broadband plan and found that the Government has shown a “reluctance” to recognise early failures in the tendering process associated with the project.

The report says the Department of Communications gave “inconsistent” evidence during committee hearings and will recommend an external, independent three-month review of the project.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/broadband-network-should-not-be-owned-by-minority-investor-1.3998089

ArrBee

KOR101 wrote: »

It said the terms of the tender were too narrow and excluded “other viable options”.



https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/26/overly-complex-restrictive-redundant-and-unfit-for-purpose/

How do they get away with making such statements of "fact"?


It's like I want to buy a car that takes child seats even though I don't yet have kids - but am planning to, and I then get criticized for not considering buying a bicycle instead.

These "viable alternatives" are at best, only viable in the immediate term. Even the short term will see them redundant. Surely this makes then not actually viable.
And I don't understand why specifying technical requirements that would ensure the network was fit for purpose for many years (at least the life of the investment) would be described as "overly restrictive". Surely this actually safeguards the investment being made so that a replacement network is not needed within the lifetime of this investment?

KOR101

Spending €25 million might, in theory, be forgiven in the context of a very difficult project but that’s different from spending it on advice that has delivered an extremely negative outcome for the State.

Advice which led to a process that alienated the telecoms industry here – most of the major players shunned the process. It also left the taxpayer with a €2.9 billion bill, six times the original estimate and a model which also hands over State infrastructure to a private company putting up a fraction of the State’s contribution. In 2015, following a public procurement process, KPMG was hired to provide “financial, commercial and procurement advisory services” for the NBP. According to the departmental secretary general, KPMG people “either drafted or provided input/review of key procurement documentation”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/consultants-paid-lavishly-for-wrong-advice-on-broadband-1.3998019

clohamon

Anyone got a link for the Report launch? It's supposed to be live streaming.

The Cush

Committee report - https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_communications_climate_action_and_environment/reports/2019/2019-08-27_report-on-an-investigation-to-examine-the-national-broadband-plan-process-thus-far-and-how-best-to-proceed-and-the-best-means-to-roll-out-rural-broadband_en.pdf

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20190827-committee-on-communications-climate-action-and-environment-report-on-the-national-broadband-plan/

KOR101

It would be a “waste of time” to independently review the €3 billion national broadband plan, Fine Gael members of the Oireachtas Communications Committee have said.

The committee has published a report into the plan which has recommended a three-month independent review.

It also recommended that the network remain in public ownership.

Fine Gael members of the committee, including the chair Hildegarde Naughten, voted against those recommendations.

At the launch, Fine Gael senator Joe O’Reilly said he did not believe anything new would be gleaned through an independent review and said he did not think the €3 billion figure could be reduced.

He also said it was too late to look into the issue of public ownership and it would be a “waste of time” to further delay the report.

Ms Naughten said it was “critical” that the Government proceed and sign the contract.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

KOR101

Timmy Dooley ......

If you’re suggesting that I’m going to threaten to bring down the Government on the strength of whether or not they accept this report or not – well the answer is ‘No’. The answer is ‘No, we won’t be bringing down the Government on this’.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/27/meanwhile-at-leinster-house-9/

rodge123

KOR101 wrote: »

Timmy Dooley ......

If you’re suggesting that I’m going to threaten to bring down the Government on the strength of whether or not they accept this report or not – well the answer is ‘No’. The answer is ‘No, we won’t be bringing down the Government on this’.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/27/meanwhile-at-leinster-house-9/

In that case FG need to sign it asap before Brexit brings it down!

celticbhoy27

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-should-be-delayed-for-further-review-or-abandoned-says-oireachtas-committee-38441605.html

Zero new information from these committees. Complete waste of time. Opposition parties being oppositional

KOR101

James Lawless, another Fianna Fáil TD on the committee, said “Brexit trumps everything” when asked if this issue would precipitate an election. He said that once Brexit was done and the budget was passed “all bets were off”.

A spokesman for the Department of Communications said that the appointment of National Broadband Ireland had already occurred. “Work continues on finalising the contract and in parallel to this work, the department will consider the report of the joint Oireachtas committee,” he said.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/fianna-fail-wont-bring-down-government-over-national-broadband-plan-dlgf3z3wg

KOR101

Although Mr Bruton has said he will listen to what the committee report says, sources said he is unlikely to adhere to its recommendations on delaying the rural roll-out further, or re-evaluating its constituent parts.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/committee-urges-new-delay-to-broadband-plan-38443140.html

KOR101

Government sources have indicated that the report it unlikely to be accepted as they believe it could delay the roll-out of high-speed broadband by potentially several years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

So, how long does EU approval normally take?

clohamon

KOR101 wrote: »

Government sources have indicated that the report it unlikely to be accepted as they believe it could delay the roll-out of high-speed broadband by potentially several years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

So, how long does EU approval normally take?

Galway Mayo Duct started 09/2011 approval 12/2013
NBS started 03/2007 approval 09/2007
RBS started 11/2009 approval 12/2009
MANS II started 06/2005 approval 03/2006
NBP started ??/2015 approval ??

The Cush

clohamon wrote: »

Galway Mayo Duct started 09/2011 approval 12/2013
NBS started 03/2007 approval 09/2007
RBS started 11/2009 approval 12/2009
MANS II started 06/2005 approval 03/2006
NBP started ??/2015 approval ??

I presume because we have reached this stage of the tender process the state aid approval is in its final stages with just the intervention map to be locked down. At no time has the Dept mentioned any delay due to the state aid process especially when they say they were hoping to sign contracts by mid Sept.

clohamon

Hildegarde Naughton and James Lawless on Radio One.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/21610797

Lawless mentions the eircom €1Bn plan again, even though Conclusion 23 of the report states...

The Committee finds Eir’s statement that it could deliver the NBP for less than €1 billion to be unproven

tsue921i8wljb3

clohamon wrote: »

Hildegarde Naughton and James Lawless on Radio One.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/21610797

Lawless mentions the eircom €1Bn plan again, even though Conclusion 23 of the report states...

I think it's probably best just to ignore the Committee stuff as I'm pretty sure that is what the Government are going to do. I had the misfortune of hearing Eamon Ryan and Paul Davis of DCU on Yates' Newstalk show yesterday. The lack of comprehension of the issues was astounding.

dollylama

If this gets canned or "pushed out"... is there any wisdom in going back to the original plan (Pat Rabitte's era?) which was to bring state-funded fibre to every village?

We can't use the ESB to do full FTTH as they'd be excruciatingly expensive and slow but we could surely use their network to bring a fibre drop to every village? Cheap and plentiful state owned fibre to a cabinet in every town and village for whoever wants to use it. Let eir or enet or whoever pick up at this cabinet and do the "H" bit from there.

With the complex home connection element removed, could this be done for sub €1B maybe?

The Cush

dollylama wrote: »

If this gets canned or "pushed out"... is there any wisdom in going back to the original plan (Pat Rabitte's era?) which was to bring state-funded fibre to every village?

We can't use the ESB to do full FTTH as they'd be excruciatingly expensive and slow but we could surely use their network to bring a fibre drop to every village? Cheap and plentiful state owned fibre to a cabinet in every town and village for whoever wants to use it. Let eir or enet or whoever pick up at this cabinet and do the "H" bit from there.

With the complex home connection element removed, could this be done for sub €1B maybe?

The whole state-aid and tendering process would have to start all over again, unless the ESB did it out of their own resources.

dollylama

The Cush wrote: »

The whole state-aid and tendering process would have to start all over again, unless the ESB did it out of their own resources.

Apologies for not clarifying in my post... assuming the current project is written off, the government "instruct" the ESB to do this FTTvillage using either state funds or some fancy accounting if it has to be from the ESB's own pot. No more tenders and the network belongs to the state

The Cush

dollylama wrote: »

Apologies for not clarifying in my post... assuming the current project is written off, the government "instruct" the ESB to do this FTTvillage using either state funds or some fancy accounting if it has to be from the ESB's own pot. No more tenders and the network belongs to the state

Kinda like a USO? All other avenues must be exhausted, including the NBP option before this can happen.

plodder

dollylama wrote: »

If this gets canned or "pushed out"... is there any wisdom in going back to the original plan (Pat Rabitte's era?) which was to bring state-funded fibre to every village?

We can't use the ESB to do full FTTH as they'd be excruciatingly expensive and slow but we could surely use their network to bring a fibre drop to every village? Cheap and plentiful state owned fibre to a cabinet in every town and village for whoever wants to use it. Let eir or enet or whoever pick up at this cabinet and do the "H" bit from there.

With the complex home connection element removed, could this be done for sub €1B maybe?

Most of rural Ireland doesn't live in a village. If it did, it probably would already have DSL. The "H" bit as you describe it is the hard part, and the best/only long term solution is fibre all the way.

The Cush

Richard Bruton in Dublin Castle this morning at a Climate Action Forum town-hall

Some headlines in the press from the conference relating to the NBP

Bruton Won't Consider Scrapping Current National Broadband Plan
Govt cannot abandon broadband plan process - Bruton
Government set to press ahead with controversial broadband plan despite criticism
Bruton dismisses abandoning National Broadband Plan
Minister to consider findings of scathing broadband report
Broadband plan stays on track, despite flaws fear

Mr Bruton said broadband is an important lifeline for rural Ireland.

“I believe it’s absolutely essential that 1.1 million Irish people are never left behind in terms of access to a technology that is transformative and really underpins rural competitiveness,” he said.

“So I believe that this is the right thing to go ahead with this deal. We have appointed a preferred bidder.

“Of course, we have to do due diligence before we signed contracts, that due diligence is on the way.”

The minister said he will study the recommendations in the 36-page report before going back to Government.

He also said the tender process was subject to a rigorous process which started in 2015.

“It was accompanied by a very complex set of committees who oversaw that work, there was independent evaluation and expertise brought in in all of the critical areas around the technology, around the financial evaluation, around the options of public or private ownership,” he added.

“If there was any of that process to change, you would have to abandon the tender and start all over again, that would involve a five-year waste of people to get access to broadband, which I believe is crucial to rural Ireland.

“We’ve had a number of people who were part of the tendering process earlier on proffering views about the process."

“But they had their opportunity to submit their plans, only one remains, that application has been subject to intense scrutiny.

“We are very advanced in a tender process and some of the proposals that the committee have put forward would represent total abandonment of that process.”

KOR101

From EIR's 2019 Annual Report.

A roll-out by NBI is likely to result in a lower utilisation of our copper network within the intervention area, as customers migrate to fibre broadband. We, however, would expect additional rental income from NBI for access to our pole and duct infrastructure to largely compensate for revenue losses.

allanpkr

FTTH IS A MUST. every home. most future govm, private sector , health etc etc services will be done over internet. ireland with ftth will future proof ireland for decades. we must stop this " i want what it does for me NOW " mentality. this is about future.
however , if your one of the " why every off grid home" im not off grid . there is ftth at bottom of road -there is ftth at top of road. but eir decided not to come up our road .
next imagine after all this is over and some homes wont get fftth. them homes will be devalued and therefore will expect property rates lower.more expense.
also may i suggest those with ftth already , should state they have it before commenting against the nbp. this is not about what i have as an individual , this is about propelling ireland ahead of everyone for once. 3 billion cheap compared to benefits.

Orebro

Yes, plenty of people on here that have FTTH and are arguing against the rest of the country getting it - I'm alright Jack!

purpleisafruit

Orebro wrote: »

Yes, plenty of people on here that have FTTH and are arguing against the rest of the country getting it - I'm alright Jack!

I'm firmly of the belief that everyone who opposes the NBP should have to post a screenshot of a speed test for their BB connection.

The high horse brigade

purpleisafruit wrote: »

I'm firmly of the belief that everyone who opposes the NBP should have to post a screenshot of a speed test for their BB connection.

Will Ferrell says before you get married you should live with your partner with slow internet, that way you'll find out what they're really like!