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NBP part II

oscarBravo

The old NBP thread had hit the 10,000-post threshold that makes the boards.ie hamsters cry, so here's a shiny new one.

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tsue921i8wljb3

clohamon wrote: »

Hildegarde Naughton and James Lawless on Radio One.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/21610797

Lawless mentions the eircom €1Bn plan again, even though Conclusion 23 of the report states...

I think it's probably best just to ignore the Committee stuff as I'm pretty sure that is what the Government are going to do. I had the misfortune of hearing Eamon Ryan and Paul Davis of DCU on Yates' Newstalk show yesterday. The lack of comprehension of the issues was astounding.

clohamon

Hildegarde Naughton and James Lawless on Radio One.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/21610797

Lawless mentions the eircom €1Bn plan again, even though Conclusion 23 of the report states...

The Committee finds Eir’s statement that it could deliver the NBP for less than €1 billion to be unproven

The Cush

clohamon wrote: »

Galway Mayo Duct started 09/2011 approval 12/2013
NBS started 03/2007 approval 09/2007
RBS started 11/2009 approval 12/2009
MANS II started 06/2005 approval 03/2006
NBP started ??/2015 approval ??

I presume because we have reached this stage of the tender process the state aid approval is in its final stages with just the intervention map to be locked down. At no time has the Dept mentioned any delay due to the state aid process especially when they say they were hoping to sign contracts by mid Sept.

clohamon

KOR101 wrote: »

Government sources have indicated that the report it unlikely to be accepted as they believe it could delay the roll-out of high-speed broadband by potentially several years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

So, how long does EU approval normally take?

Galway Mayo Duct started 09/2011 approval 12/2013
NBS started 03/2007 approval 09/2007
RBS started 11/2009 approval 12/2009
MANS II started 06/2005 approval 03/2006
NBP started ??/2015 approval ??

KOR101

Government sources have indicated that the report it unlikely to be accepted as they believe it could delay the roll-out of high-speed broadband by potentially several years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

So, how long does EU approval normally take?

KOR101

Although Mr Bruton has said he will listen to what the committee report says, sources said he is unlikely to adhere to its recommendations on delaying the rural roll-out further, or re-evaluating its constituent parts.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/committee-urges-new-delay-to-broadband-plan-38443140.html

KOR101

James Lawless, another Fianna Fáil TD on the committee, said “Brexit trumps everything” when asked if this issue would precipitate an election. He said that once Brexit was done and the budget was passed “all bets were off”.

A spokesman for the Department of Communications said that the appointment of National Broadband Ireland had already occurred. “Work continues on finalising the contract and in parallel to this work, the department will consider the report of the joint Oireachtas committee,” he said.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/fianna-fail-wont-bring-down-government-over-national-broadband-plan-dlgf3z3wg

celticbhoy27

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-should-be-delayed-for-further-review-or-abandoned-says-oireachtas-committee-38441605.html

Zero new information from these committees. Complete waste of time. Opposition parties being oppositional

rodge123

KOR101 wrote: »

Timmy Dooley ......

If you’re suggesting that I’m going to threaten to bring down the Government on the strength of whether or not they accept this report or not – well the answer is ‘No’. The answer is ‘No, we won’t be bringing down the Government on this’.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/27/meanwhile-at-leinster-house-9/

In that case FG need to sign it asap before Brexit brings it down!

KOR101

Timmy Dooley ......

If you’re suggesting that I’m going to threaten to bring down the Government on the strength of whether or not they accept this report or not – well the answer is ‘No’. The answer is ‘No, we won’t be bringing down the Government on this’.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/27/meanwhile-at-leinster-house-9/

KOR101

It would be a “waste of time” to independently review the €3 billion national broadband plan, Fine Gael members of the Oireachtas Communications Committee have said.

The committee has published a report into the plan which has recommended a three-month independent review.

It also recommended that the network remain in public ownership.

Fine Gael members of the committee, including the chair Hildegarde Naughten, voted against those recommendations.

At the launch, Fine Gael senator Joe O’Reilly said he did not believe anything new would be gleaned through an independent review and said he did not think the €3 billion figure could be reduced.

He also said it was too late to look into the issue of public ownership and it would be a “waste of time” to further delay the report.

Ms Naughten said it was “critical” that the Government proceed and sign the contract.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/broadband-plan-fg-committee-members-say-review-of-3bn-project-a-waste-of-time-1.3998784

The Cush

Committee report - https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_communications_climate_action_and_environment/reports/2019/2019-08-27_report-on-an-investigation-to-examine-the-national-broadband-plan-process-thus-far-and-how-best-to-proceed-and-the-best-means-to-roll-out-rural-broadband_en.pdf

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20190827-committee-on-communications-climate-action-and-environment-report-on-the-national-broadband-plan/

clohamon

Anyone got a link for the Report launch? It's supposed to be live streaming.

KOR101

Spending €25 million might, in theory, be forgiven in the context of a very difficult project but that’s different from spending it on advice that has delivered an extremely negative outcome for the State.

Advice which led to a process that alienated the telecoms industry here – most of the major players shunned the process. It also left the taxpayer with a €2.9 billion bill, six times the original estimate and a model which also hands over State infrastructure to a private company putting up a fraction of the State’s contribution. In 2015, following a public procurement process, KPMG was hired to provide “financial, commercial and procurement advisory services” for the NBP. According to the departmental secretary general, KPMG people “either drafted or provided input/review of key procurement documentation”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/consultants-paid-lavishly-for-wrong-advice-on-broadband-1.3998019

ArrBee

KOR101 wrote: »

It said the terms of the tender were too narrow and excluded “other viable options”.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/26/overly-complex-restrictive-redundant-and-unfit-for-purpose/

How do they get away with making such statements of "fact"?

It's like I want to buy a car that takes child seats even though I don't yet have kids - but am planning to, and I then get criticized for not considering buying a bicycle instead.

These "viable alternatives" are at best, only viable in the immediate term. Even the short term will see them redundant. Surely this makes then not actually viable.
And I don't understand why specifying technical requirements that would ensure the network was fit for purpose for many years (at least the life of the investment) would be described as "overly restrictive". Surely this actually safeguards the investment being made so that a replacement network is not needed within the lifetime of this investment?

KOR101

There is “no justification” for the new broadband network to be owned by a “minority investor” instead of the State, an Oireachtas committee report due to be released today has found.

The Oireachtas committee on communications has compiled a report into the €3 billion national broadband plan and found that the Government has shown a “reluctance” to recognise early failures in the tendering process associated with the project.

The report says the Department of Communications gave “inconsistent” evidence during committee hearings and will recommend an external, independent three-month review of the project.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/broadband-network-should-not-be-owned-by-minority-investor-1.3998089

KOR101

Doubtful on the budget IMO....

While the report is non-binding, the Fine Gael-led Government could be forced to face a vote or a debate on the controversial recommendations in the Dáil. The issue may also feed into budget talks with Fianna Fáil — who are relied on for support under the confidence and supply agreement.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/isolated-houses-could-pay-more-for-broadband-946400.html

theguzman

The optimist in me hopes this will get the go ahead, the realist however knows Ireland is far too corrupt for anything as sensible as this to go ahead.

Privately I think they are trying to can it as the storm clouds are gathering on the near Horizon, Brexit is but a mere distraction from what is already being dubbed "the Greatest Recession" as experts can see the global economy collapsing within the next 12 months on a scale much worse than the GFC of 2008 or the 1929-1930's great depression. Various predictions vary from 2008esque all the way to World War Three before normality will return.

Orebro

Was hoping this would get signed before the Dail was back, as Timmy is bound to make plenty of noise on it otherwise.

Anyway I agree, we've gone way to far with this process to back out now.

careless sherpa

KOR101 wrote: »

Too much pessimism on here. They're too dug in on this to back out now, and the finish line is in sight.

That is optimistic as brexit could be a massive economic shock. Although the government have said that the border area will be hit very hard and not providing broadband services would only compound that so even if it is a hard brexit it still might work out

KOR101

Too much pessimism on here. They're too dug in on this to back out now, and the finish line is in sight.

Johnboy1951

careless sherpa wrote: »

If not signed before halloween you would imagine that brexit is going to sink the entire enterprise.

I hope not ...... it is going to be a long drawn out affair at best.

careless sherpa

KOR101 wrote: »

This means the contract is unlikely to be signed before September 30, as the map will have to be redrawn and the EU will have to approve it. The signing may not happen before the budget on October 8.

Any guesses as to who asked twice for the extension? Maybe their is some technical cost advantage for EIR in nailing down the additional premises for themselves.

If not signed before halloween you would imagine that brexit is going to sink the entire enterprise.

Johnboy1951

roll-out in areas where it wasn’t needed

Maybe not presently ..... but can any of them predict the future?
If the service is available development is not hindered and so will likely happen in those places it now cannot.

KOR101

‘Overly Complex, Restrictive, Redundant And Unfit For Purpose’

In a highly critical report into the National Broadband Plan (NBP) seen by The Sunday Business Post, members of the cross-party Oireachtas Communications Committee warned that public money would be used to subsidise its roll-out in areas where it wasn’t needed.

The report, which will be published on Tuesday, found that the procurement process run by the Department of Communications was “overly complex, restrictive, redundant and unfit for purpose”, despite being well intentioned.

It said the terms of the tender were too narrow and excluded “other viable options”.

A government source disputed the findings and said that if the recommendations were followed it would add a further siginificant delay to the project.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/08/26/overly-complex-restrictive-redundant-and-unfit-for-purpose/

celticbhoy27

Mortelaro wrote: »

What happens to the properties withdrawn?
My own road is 11kms end to end
8kms approx is fibred from a rural exchange stopping exactly at the Wicklow wexford border on the road
Then theres no fibre until you meet the fibre coming out from the Arklow town end of that 11km stretch
Theres approximately 2kms on the road in the dark,that's all cable that's needed to finish that road
The cable coming from the rural exchange is coming along 8kms of the road but the fibre from the town just goes 1km or less beyond the town boundary and stops
Theres surely plenty play to bring that the other 2kms? Plenty houses and farms in that stretch
It spurs down a more minor road several kilometres instead

That scenario is in every county in Ireland. TBH 40000 is an understatement that eir could comfortably reach. If they do insist on providing fiber (eir) to these areas they better be given a short time frame to complete. Not the same as the nbp circa 5 years

Mortelaro

What happens to the properties withdrawn?
My own road is 11kms end to end
8kms approx is fibred from a rural exchange stopping exactly at the Wicklow wexford border on the road
Then theres no fibre until you meet the fibre coming out from the Arklow town end of that 11km stretch
Theres approximately 2kms on the road in the dark,that's all cable that's needed to finish that road
The cable coming from the rural exchange is coming along 8kms of the road but the fibre from the town just goes 1km or less beyond the town boundary and stops
Theres surely plenty play to bring that the other 2kms? Plenty houses and farms in that stretch
It spurs down a more minor road several kilometres instead

KOR101

This means the contract is unlikely to be signed before September 30, as the map will have to be redrawn and the EU will have to approve it. The signing may not happen before the budget on October 8.

Any guesses as to who asked twice for the extension? Maybe their is some technical cost advantage for EIR in nailing down the additional premises for themselves.

The Cush

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

As expected, the contract signing has been delayed (yet again). It may not happen now before the budget which is announced on October 8th.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/broadband-deal-signing-with-granahan-mccourt-set-to-be-delayed-for-month-rt5dbq3hh?region=ie&t=ie

So, delayed due to the extended mapping consultation

The signing of the state’s €2.9bn national broadband contract will be delayed after the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment added a month-long extension to a consultation process required under EU state aid regulations.
…
the final map of properties to be covered by the contract cannot be completed until the department establishes if commercial broadband providers intend serving any of the 540,000 homes, farms and businesses in the provisional “intervention region”. EU state-aid rules require governments to prove there has been market failure to service properties before intervention is approved.

Last Friday was the original deadline for submissions to the department in the state-aid consultation process but operators were notified on Tuesday that the deadline was being extended to September 20. This means the contract is unlikely to be signed before September 30, as the map will have to be redrawn and the EU will have to approve it. The signing may not happen before the budget on October 8.

The department said: “To allow sufficient time to participate in the consultation, the deadline for submissions has been extended.”

At least 40,000 properties are expected to be withdrawn from the map, which currently covers 1.1m people.

Communications company Eir has told the department it can make high-speed fibre available to 40,000 rural premises currently included on the intervention map. Siro, a rival company, says it may deploy broadband in infill urban sites also on the map.

tsue921i8wljb3

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

Would NBI be willing to enter a contract with the scope of the intervention area still uncertain? I don't believe so. Anyway, has any deadline been met in this interminable process? I won't believe it is happening until I see evidence of NBI putting fibre on poles.

As expected, the contract signing has been delayed (yet again). It may not happen now before the budget which is announced on October 8th.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/broadband-deal-signing-with-granahan-mccourt-set-to-be-delayed-for-month-rt5dbq3hh?region=ie&t=ie