Brian Cowen unwell

PropJoe10

Not by any means a fan of Brian Cowan as a politician but I wish him nothing but the best. Hope he pulls through.

Ursus Horribilis

He probably shouldn't have taken the Taoiseach's job after Bertie Ahern. It seems to have been a step too far for him and it wasn't his finest hour. Bertie knew it was time to step aside and handed him the ticking time bomb that was the imploding Irish economy. It was a bad time in our recent history though and a lot of politicians made mistakes around then. It seems to have taken its toll on him as a person. I saw photos of him afterwards and he looked terrible. His weight had ballooned and he didn't look well at all. And now this. On a human level, I feel for his family. It must be a nightmare come true for them, seeing as a brain haemorrhage took his father too.

I spotted the abuse on Twitter and thought it was despicable. It reminded me yet again that Twitter is the equivalent of lifting the lid off a septic tank and looking into the horror that lies underneath. What is wrong with people?

LillySV

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

But Biffo didn't have to run for leader! He could have left it to one of FF's brighter stars, like Willie O'Dea or Eamon O'Cuiv!

Eamon was minister for social protection briefly and nearly ran it into the ground!!! Willie o Dea is a nice guy but not leadership material. Brian was way better than them

d8491prj5boyvg

odyssey06 wrote: »

McCreevy setup the national pension reserve fund and the SSIAs were an attempt at setting a higher interest rate given we could no longer set our own and take money out of the economy for 5 years. I think his actions were more complicated than his soundbites ... and while not perfect, its clear he was sacked by Bertie when he wanted to balance the books.

Yep, SSIAs were a clever (but very expensive!) way to curb spending when no longer in control of monetary policy. They also risked overheating the economy on maturity. If the economy was growing at a greater rate on maturity then their impact would have been negative. There is no evidence to suggest they made things worse, thankfully, but no evidence to suggest they helped by a great deal.

Handouts are rarely the best solution but voters love them.

LillySV

People who blame Brian for recession clearly aren’t very bright ...millennial mouthpieces I suspect.....the recession was global... no escaping it...Bertie o Hearn led the country right up to the start... if u do want to blame an Irish politician then that’s the man to blame.... although he’s cute and knows how to talk his way out of it ...Brian took the fall for him ... the current assholes in power are destroying the country, taking from the taxpayers big time while giving nothing ... looking after the rich .... and what do we hear they offfer... diversity ???......

Yer Da sells Avon

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Some people are incapable of 'taking a day off' from being angry about politics. Of course a former Taoiseach deserves criticism and analysis, but using their serious illness as an opportunity to needlessly express your hatred of them is frankly shite behaviour.

But almost nobody is doing what you describe at the end of that post. I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't tolerate that, nobody ought to.

It's rare that the whole country (well, a lot of it), has this kind of conversation. It's unfortunate that it takes a human tragedy to spark such crucial democratic reflection on policy and the meaning of leadership.

But where is all of this virulent abuse people (mainly hacks) keep referring to? I'm not seeing it.

Ursus Horribilis

Twitter

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Very sad news. He was our leader, whether you liked him or not is really irrelevant. He was by no means perfect, but I don't believe there's a malicious bone in the chaps body. His loved ones are suffering at the moment, it's not right to use this incident to get one up on him or his party.

I truly hope he pulls through this and back to sucking on pints in the not so distant future.

Ursus Horribilis

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Twitter

I'm on Twitter. I keep reading expressions of deep shock and anger at obnoxious comments about Brian Cowen (the few personal attacks I've seen were indeed obnoxious). I searched for this specifically, and found no more than three or four.

There are hundreds of tweets about abuse, and most of this thread is about abuse. But where is all the abuse?

99% of people are decent, and respectful. But they're not stupid, and not willing to abandon their critical faculties.

d8491prj5boyvg

odyssey06 wrote: »

This is After Hours not a get well soon card to the family... what would be the point of that from a random internet forum.
He was a politician that is how he is known to the people here and informs their response. People know him as a public figure.

If people in his area know him through personal interaction as a man then naturally their response is different.

It's a discussion about a man who is unwell not the bank bailout.

Baron Kurtz

Our leader

What was the offensive post to start this off? I'm always too late for it.

d8491prj5boyvg

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

What if said sick individual was a murderer or rapist, would you still be a sociopath for wishing ill on them?

What a disgusting comment.

Ursus Horribilis

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm on Twitter. I keep reading expressions of deep shock and anger at obnoxious comments about Brian Cowen (the few personal attacks I've seen were indeed obnoxious). I searched for this specifically, and found no more than three or four.

There are hundreds of tweets about abuse, and most of this thread is about abuse. But where is all the abuse?

Unless the tweets were deleted? I saw a some nasty ones (possibly replies) but I can't be arsed going back to look - Twitter makes me lose my faith in humanity and it is past my bedtime. Mostly they were digs about him being on the board of tha Beacon and how nice for him to be given such top class care. That leads me on to another thing that bugs me about social media and journalists' love of it. All these over-the-top reactions to things that are pretty innocuous.

Ursus Horribilis

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Unless the tweets were deleted? .

If so, and if they were noticed, the replies would still be online.

You have to wade through dozens of outraged tweets to find any that are even respectfully critical of Cowen. The obnoxious ones are like hens teeth.

Same in this thread. A few stupid bollixes, but mainly people expressing their disquiet about a tiny minority.

It's strange. But I guess it's reassuring in some ways. I like how we try not to disrespect those in vulnerable situations. But we needn't lose our grip on reality, either. Almost nobody wants to have a go at Brian Cowen (personally) right now, even if we want to talk about his stewardship of the country in a respectful way.

Larbre34

careless sherpa wrote: »

At least he is in a private hospital and doesn't have to suffer the indignity of the public one.

Utter rubbish. My aunt died from a very similar occurrence 2 years ago. She was admitted to St Vincent's E.D. by ambulance, stabilised and put on a HD unit. When the following day it was clear to the neurologist that there was catastrophic damage from which she would not recover, interventions were removed and she was brought to a private end-of-life suite on an upper floor with lots of space and a family ante room with sofas and tea and coffee facilities. A dedicated liaison nurse was appointed and magnificent care was provided by her and her team to the whole family, all in the public hospital. Dignity was at the heart of everything.

The whole problem with Irish tertiary care is the point of entry, once you're in the system it can be excellent.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

What if said sick individual was a murderer or rapist, would you still be a sociopath for wishing ill on them?

But he's not... what logical fallacy is this, red herring? Strawman? :rolleyes:

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But almost nobody is doing what you describe at the end of that post. I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't tolerate that, nobody ought to.

It's rare that the whole country (well, a lot of it), has this kind of conversation. It's unfortunate that it takes a human tragedy to spark such crucial democratic reflection on policy and the meaning of leadership.

But where is all of this virulent abuse people (mainly hacks) keep referring to? I'm not seeing it.

Discussing politics and reflecting on the past and the type of leadership needed is a national hobby! I don't see how Brian Cowen's illness changes that or makes the need for discussion any greater. You'd swear we were all quiet on the political chat front up to this point.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Discussing politics and reflecting on the past and the type of leadership needed is a national hobby! I don't see how Brian Cowen's illness changes that or makes the need for discussion any greater. You'd swear we were all quiet on the political chat front up to this point.

Yeah, we all gripe and argue and chat about politics in a casual way, but not in any organised way which takes a long view of history (not even during elections, which are all about the future). I guess it's one of those staging posts in Irish politics where the whole place seems to stop, take a breath, look back and assess the damage, or maybe go into reflective mode.

I agree that it's not ideal that it takes a serious illness for us to have a big conversation about this, but such is life. It's really just a feature of a healthy democracy, it happens everywhere where democracy thrives.

We can critically assess Cowen's career without condemning the man personally, who by all accounts is a sincerely nice person.

sligojoek

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

But Biffo didn't have to run for leader! He could have left it to one of FF's brighter stars, like Willie O'Dea or Eamon O'Cuiv!

Good one.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm on Twitter. I keep reading expressions of deep shock and anger at obnoxious comments about Brian Cowen (the few personal attacks I've seen were indeed obnoxious). I searched for this specifically, and found no more than three or four.

There are hundreds of tweets about abuse, and most of this thread is about abuse. But where is all the abuse?

99% of people are decent, and respectful. But they're not stupid, and not willing to abandon their critical faculties.

You listen to Joe Duffy as often as I do. For the last while he's been painting the Irish as a shower of racists based on anecdotal incidents in Dublin. I live near a village north of Sligo and there's people from every country you can think of working in local businesses. Almost everybody is on first name terms with them but you'll always get the ar$ehole who'll be giving out about that Lithuanian c**t who wouldn't give him drink after 10.30pm. Complain to Michael McDowall would be my advice.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Utter rubbish. My aunt died from a very similar occurrence 2 years ago. She was admitted to St Vincent's E.D. by ambulance, stabilised and put on a HD unit. When the following day it was clear to the neurologist that there was catastrophic damage from which she would not recover, interventions were removed and she was brought to a private end-of-life suite on an upper floor with lots of space and a family ante room with sofas and tea and coffee facilities. A dedicated liaison nurse was appointed and magnificent care was provided by her and her team to the whole family, all in the public hospital. Dignity was at the heart of everything.

The whole problem with Irish tertiary care is the point of entry, once you're in the system it can be excellent.

My brother was brought to Limerick hospital after collapsing one morning. They wanted to send him home with painkillers that night. He held tuff and got sent to cork next morning, After a scan they knew what it was and operated through his groin straight away. The man is alive and well, but as I said earlier, "A shadow of his former self".

spurious

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

What if said sick individual was a murderer or rapist, would you still be a sociopath for wishing ill on them?

In my book, yes.

A civilised society has other ways of dealing with such people.
Sadly we have not yet got a handle on the sort of creeps posting ill wishes on twitter.

It's hard to understand what kick they get out of it, sitting there (probably) in their jocks alone smirking to themselves about what a hard man they are anonymously posting horrible stuff.

super_furry

Brian Cowen was handed the biggest poison chalice in Irish politics since Michael Collins was sent over to London by Dev. Still think he could have done some things differently but there was no-one who could have stopped the ****-storm that had been unleashed by the global meltdown and years of Bertie politics - of which he played a part too.

Sleeper12

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

What if said sick individual was a murderer or rapist, would you still be a sociopath for wishing ill on them?

In this case a compassionate person will think of the family & bite their tongue. You don't have to sing their praises, just not be nasty. Those two young lads in Lucan did a horrible thing with Anna. I still feel for the three families affected.




On a side note congrats to the mods for working very hard last night & keeping this thread open. You'd have to read through it several times to realize how much work went into it.

Kermit.de.frog

odyssey06 wrote: »

He wasnt parachuted in from Mars to takeover from Bertie. He was Minister for Finance and was the one who opened the taps into that bath.
Instead of preparing for the worst when the inevitable downturn came he left us defenceless. Whatever talents as a politician they were put at the service of FF not Ireland.

Can you point us to records of the mass protests by the people against this wrecklessness in 2007?

No? Didn't think so.

Irish society and it's faults far more to blame than one person.

Like others I also think this thread totally inappropriate right now.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Whatever about what he was like as a politician, he is a good person and has a family. He is well liked locally and always has a smile and a nice word for people when you’d meet him out and about. Wish him and his family all the best, hope he recovers well.

Danzy

Aaden Nutty Prizefight wrote: »

But he's not... what logical fallacy is this, red herring? Strawman? :rolleyes:

He wasn't but he wasn't a boy scout either.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Gael23 wrote: »

Hard to have sympathy. So many people lie in their graves today because of decisions he made as minister for finance

And decisions that they themselves made too. The whole world went through a recession. I was in the states in 2009 and there was foreclosures on every street. There was no dealing with the banks and years of chances to pay. It was a global issue and I distinctly remember after a very generous budget in December, Enda Kenny having a conniption on RTÉ saying FF should have given more to social welfare. There was actual protests when the medical cards for the elderly was going to be means tested.

I feel dreadfully sorry for anyone who lost family members during the recession, due to pressure. But nobody made them borrow huge debt, you can’t reasonablely expect to borrow hundreds of thousands and stop paying AND keep the collateral and it isn’t any one persons fault.

RandomName2

Hoboo wrote: »

More offended people. Wouldn't be 2019 without them. Can only have an opinion on someone if they're fit and healthy.

I didn't like Brian Cowen as a politician, not one bit, but he isn't one now, and hasn't been for a while. I think it's more than a bit mean spirited to talk ill of him when he is in such a horrendous state. More to the point, his family may read this. I wish him a full and speedy recovery, and some respite to his family from the horrible position they find themselves in.

DeanAustin

Issac Repulsive Gap wrote: »

And decisions that they themselves made too. The whole world went through a recession. I was in the states in 2009 and there was foreclosures on every street. There was no dealing with the banks and years of chances to pay. It was a global issue and I distinctly remember after a very generous budget in December, Enda Kenny having a conniption on RTÉ saying FF should have given more to social welfare. There was actual protests when the medical cards for the elderly was going to be means tested.

I feel dreadfully sorry for anyone who lost family members during the recession, due to pressure. But nobody made them borrow huge debt, you can’t reasonablely expect to borrow hundreds of thousands and stop paying AND keep the collateral and it isn’t any one persons fault.

Well said. I think he made what he thought were the right decisions. It's easy with hindsight to be clever and paint him as the bogeyman. But while he was Minister for Finance, he made decisions that met with favour at the time, that the electorate wanted and the opposition were saying he should have gone further. Obviously history will judge him harshly but I really think you can only judge the person based on the information they had to hand at the time.

In that context, you can understand why Cowen and others made the decisions they made. Very few foresaw the severity of the crash. The good times were rolling and he made decisions to keep them rolling. He didn't do it maliciously, he didn't do it to cause harm, he did it because that was how the wind was blowing, it was what the overwhelming majority wanted and it helped his party back to power.

In hindsight, it was cataclysmic and I'm sure he's carried that with him since 2008. But he didn't set out to hurt anyone and the comment you replied to is just nasty and pathetic.

10000maniacs

It is a bit distasteful to the guy with some of the stuff I saw on Social media yesterday and I hope he recovers. It wasn't only Brian Cowan in FF who was out of their depth during the crash. Nobody in the party has a clue.
But we have moved on and are in a better place. Forgive and forget.

Keyzer

10000maniacs wrote: »

It is a bit distasteful to the guy with some of the stuff I saw on Social media yesterday and I hope he recovers. It wasn't only Brian Cowan in FF who was out of their depth during the crash. Nobody in the party has a clue.
But we have moved on and are in a better place. Forgive and forget.

Exactly - you'd think the guy was guilty of mass genocide the way people are going on.

Whatever about his short comings as a politician, he's still a human being who is seriously ill at the moment. He also has a family who may or may not read the sh1te posted on this forum and other social media platforms.

He deserves to be respected versus a herd of dopes spouting nonsense about how he ruined their lives.