Brian Cowen unwell

Edgware

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Mc reevy wanted to reign in public spending, that wasn't bertie ahernes style so mc reevy was sent to Europe and replaced with a more union friendly operator in cowen

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

odyssey06

fergus1001 wrote: »

Charley McCreevy opened the taps, as I remember it all parties were screaming for more spending at that time

No McCreevy was packed off to Europe because he wouldnt keep up the spend spend spend when the economic circumstances changed. Thats what Cowen did. He was Minister for Finance for four years before becoming Taoiseach. Instead of hitting the brakes he hit the accelerator.
To present him as some innocent who inherited a mess as Taoiseach ignores his cabinet role with primary responsibility for finance. He inherited a mess he played a major role in creating when he should have been putting the house in order.

Mad_maxx

Edgware wrote: »

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

No I don't but that's beside the point, lenehan was heroic in what he achieved, cowen obstructed him much of the time

Hoboo

Edgware wrote: »

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

Paddy?

Cyclical Apocalypse

Hoboo wrote: »

Edgware wrote: »

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

Paddy?

Good old Paddy the Irishman.

Gimme A Pound

Edgware wrote: »

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

Why must you use that derogatory term? Are you including yourself among those who don't do restraint?

Some of the most self loathing people in the world have got to be among the Irish.

fergus1001

joe40 wrote:

problems with bank accounts

can't have problems with them if you don't have any :pac:

_Brian

Always have to remind people when they go on about FF overspending etc.

FG we’re across the floor complaining the tax cuts weren’t enough and the spending wasn’t high enough. Shows no matter who was on power we were destined for the same result, as we probably will again on the future.

People complain about FF corruption but remember it was a FG TD that was caught recently trying a dodgy insurance claim and didn’t FG recently meet with a lobbiest for petrochemical industry and kept no records of the meeting, what payment was handed over or promises made in that meeting ??

Few standards seem to run throughout politics.

1, politics corrupts. Proven from party to party, even the greens last time in sold their souls to keep power and made bad deals/decisions to do so.

2, politicians will spend public money poorly to buy votes, the minute they are elected their focus is on reelection and that it.

3, politicians are two faced liars, we recently declared a “climate emergency” because it looked sexy on the news, but when the Taoiseach was pressed he said it was “symbolic” rather than a proper emergency.

odyssey06

DeanAustin wrote: »

Hope he gets better. He was out of his depth as Taoiseach but by the time he got it, he was doomed to failure no matter who he was. However, I don't believe Cowen ever went out to do anything but his best for the country. He just made a host of bad decisions as Minister for Finance and when he led the country.
More annoying is the "Cowen is to blame for the crash" or "Bertie is to blame for the crash". No one individual is solely to blame. It was a culmination of factors and thousands of people have culpability. Some a lot more than others but no one person caused it. Lots of people made mistakes and most people would have done similar to Bertie and Cowen in their positions. There were very few voters calling for spending cuts in the 2007 election. Some people are just great donning the Captain Hindsight costume and at simplistic scapegoating.
Cowen certainly didn't set out to wreck the country.

I dont see any evidence he cared about not wrecking the country. I think he was trying to do his best for himself and FF.
That was his priority.
He was minister for finance. Its not captain hindsight to say his budgets put party before country - it was said at the time.

storker

RHJ wrote: »

Sadly that is the world we live in today bloody snowflakes. If he were still fit and healthy ( not that he's ever been that way) half the people here in this thread would have no problem criticising him.

Maintaining that there's a time and a place for certain types of comment isn't snowflakey; it isn't even taking offence. It's actually called having a bit of class, and that doesn't require having approved of the individual's performance in public office.

Sleeper12

joe40 wrote:

Bertie had his own personal problems with bank accounts and handouts to deal with, that is why he got out.

He didn't "get out". He was forced to step down. Pressure after the tribunal was too much. He asked & was given a few months longer to fulfil engagements but he was definitely forced from office.

I think history will be kind to him in that it recognises his contribution to kick starting the economy in the late 80s and his major contribution to the peace process. History will also remember the tribunal though

_Brian

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He didn't "get out". He was forced to step down. Pressure after the tribunal was too much. He asked & was given a few months longer to fulfil engagements but he was definitely forced from office.

I think history will be kind to him in that it recognises his contribution to kick starting the economy in the late 80s and his major contribution to the peace process. History will also remember the tribunal though

Good Friday agreement nor peace in the north wouldn’t have happened without him.

s7ryf3925pivug

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It's not weird. Not with a brain hemorrhage.

I am not supposing about this particular case.

But you can have Brain death. Or some of the factors of brain death like aponea.

That's what happened to my uncle.

He had a long stoke. Then was partially brain dead for a long time.

Oh. I reckon you've hit the nail on the head unfortunately. Sorry about your uncle.

Itssoeasy

fergus1001 wrote: »

odyssey06 wrote:

He wasnt parachuted in from Mars to takeover from Bertie. He was Minister for Finance and was the one who opened the taps into that bath. Instead of preparing for the worst when the inevitable downturn came he left us defenceless. Whatever talents as a politician they were put at the service of FF not Ireland.

Charley McCreevy opened the taps, as I remember it all parties were screaming for more spending at that time

And when he tried to close them again he was shipped off to Europe if I remember rightly.

Cyclical Apocalypse

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Edgware wrote: »

Do you think the voters would have rewarded FF for controlling spending?
Paddy doesn't do restraint

Why must you use that derogatory term? Are you including yourself among those who don't do restraint?

Some of the most self-loathing people in the world have got to be among the Irish.

I don't see it as a derogatory term, and I for one have very few restraints lol, and unfortunately, we are no longer number one in the self-loathing charts I think the brits may have just overtaken us by willing voting to destroy their own economy.

Poulgorm

fergus1001 wrote: »

Charley McCreevy opened the taps, as I remember it all parties were screaming for more spending at that time

100% incorrect. McCreevy wanted to rein in spending: Bertie did not agree and banished him to Brussels.

DeanAustin

odyssey06 wrote: »

I dont see any evidence he cared about not wrecking the country. I think he was trying to do his best for himself and FF.
That was his priority.
He was minister for finance. Its not captain hindsight to say his budgets put party before country - it was said at the time.

You seriously think he might have set out to wreck the country?

All politicians try to do the best for their party because politics is about winning elections. That's the problem with democracy because, ultimately, you have to do what the people want. And, in 2007, most people wanted the good times to keep rolling.

ILoveYourVibes

Emmie Faint Skulduggery wrote: »

Oh. I reckon you've hit the nail on the head unfortunately. Sorry about your uncle.

Thanks.

For Forks Sake

_Brian wrote: »

Good Friday agreement nor peace in the north wouldn’t have happened without him.

Thread for another day but Bertie managed to claim a lot of credit for work that Reynolds/Major had set in motion

Life has moved on, I don't have anything personal against Cowen by now. The time to object to him was when he and his party were seeking to lead that notorious Government of the 30th Dáil.

My abiding memory of Cowen, whether he passes away imminently or 30 years from now, will be the chaos that led up to the 2011 election.

At one stage, so many ministers had resigned that the entire Government was divided between only seven ministers. I think at one point Mary Coughlan TD was Tánaiste, Minister for Health, and Minister for Education. Something like that anyway. Cowen himself had to become Minister for Foreign Affairs as well as being Taoiseach. The Minister for Environment had several portfolios. It was a preposterous shambles.

Lots about it here, written at the time.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-worst-week-for-the-worst-taoiseach-in-the-states-history-26616624.html

odyssey06

DeanAustin wrote: »

You seriously think he might have set out to wreck the country?
All politicians try to do the best for their party because politics is about winning elections. That's the problem with democracy because, ultimately, you have to do what the people want. And, in 2007, most people wanted the good times to keep rolling.

I think he didnt care about what happened to the countrys economy beyond the next election. He was irresponsible and weak both as minister and in dealings with the EU.

Of course politicians need to play the election games but they are also there to make the hard choices and know how far they can push the envelope and balance country and party and electorate.

Its entirely legitimate to criticise a minister for finance whose budgets clearly were all about the party and not about the country. And history rightly judges harshly politicians who place short term party interests above the country and for that matter long term interests of a party.

Sleeper12

For Forks Sake wrote:

Thread for another day but Bertie managed to claim a lot of credit for work that Reynolds/Major had set in motion

It could equally be claimed that Reynolds continued the work started by Hahghey. He was the first leader to open dialogue with the IRA after all.

It's probably fairer to say that they all played a part in the peace process.

DeanAustin

odyssey06 wrote: »

I think he didnt care about what happened to the countrys economy beyond the next election. He was irresponsible and weak both as minister and in dealings with the EU.

Of course politicians need to play the election games but they are also there to make the hard choices and know how far they can push the envelope and balance country and party and electorate.

Its entirely legitimate to criticise a minister for finance whose budgets clearly were all about the party and not about the country. And history rightly judges harshly politicians who place short term party interests above the country and for that matter long term interests of a party.

Which I agree with. Cowen is fair game for criticism and harsh judgement of his time as Minister for Finance and Taoiseach.

However, he shouldn't be fair game for abuse from clowns on the internet at any stage, particularly right now.

s7ryf3925pivug

A lot of the criticism here is inappropriate in tone and wholly unnecessary. Time and place.

Cyclical Apocalypse

Emmie Faint Skulduggery wrote: »

A lot of the criticism here is inappropriate in tone and wholly unnecessary. Time and place.

I don't agree with personal insults, but I believe it is fair to criticise his actions and inactions during his time in government.

Jupiter Mulligan

fergus1001 wrote: »

Charley McCreevy opened the taps, as I remember it all parties were screaming for more spending at that time

McCreevy both opened the taps and tried to close them.

"When I have it I spend it and when I don't I don't" is what he said at the time.

d8491prj5boyvg

Cyclical Apocalypse wrote: »

I don't agree with personal insults, but I believe it is fair to criticise his actions and inactions during his time in government.

In the correct context, of course. In this thread, no.

Emmie Faint Skulduggery

Emmie Faint Skulduggery wrote: »

A lot of the criticism here is inappropriate in tone and wholly unnecessary. Time and place.

I'd say you should turn off the Internet altogether on the day of his passing, which hopefully won't be for a very long time yet.

It is really worrisome whenever anyone suggests, or implies, that there shouldn't be a critical analysis of politics, current or recent.

There has been some limited (and scurrilous) online abuse directed at Cowen, given the circumstances, but not "a lot". It has been totally exaggerated. If you search for "Brian Cowen" on Twitter, you'll se that most of the commentary is condemning the abuse, which itself is incredibly sparse.

Nobody should abuse a sick man, but there is absolutely no justification for avoiding an honest and critical analysis of a political leader in an established democracy.

I think it's in very bad taste to look back at the mistakes that a man made when he is now so very ill. Brian Cowen is a person just like you and I, who is far from perfect.
I hope he recovers from this. A dreadful time for him and his family.

d8491prj5boyvg

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

McCreevy both opened the taps and tried to close them.

"When I have it I spend it and when I don't I don't" is what he said at the time.

The exact opposite of what good economic practice requires.

Bertie, apparently, once said "sustainable growth is growth that can be sustained"