Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Seth Brundle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

A bit like them lads in the European Commission

Which lads would those be?

Spanish Eyes

Voltex wrote: »

I cant help but wonder what the real influence is of Dominic Cummings on Boris's strategy? By all accounts, he's the most powerful, non-elected individual in the British Government at the moment....

I wonder about him too. I don't think any other Adviser to a PM has had so much publicity, not to mention a name attributed to them either.

Got my spidey hat on now! :eek:

Atlantic Dawn

Mentions in the media yesterday of a possibly cull needed for 40k cattle in NIRL if there's a no deal exit, will be no demand for 30% of the milk they currently export here.

FrancieBrady

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Mentions in the media yesterday of a possibly cull needed for 40k cattle in NIRL if there's a no deal exit, will be no demand for 30% of the milk they currently export here.

That whole dairy thing will spiral out of control very quick.

Kidchameleon

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Which lads would those be?

Basically, jobs for the lads (and lasses)



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019_en

A complete breath of fresh air from The Irish Times Berlin-based correspondent Derek Scally in this morning's paper about the "self-delusion" of the British to think that the German car industry, or other aspects of German industry, are going to pressurise Merkel into abandoning the Irish. Apparently, the Daimler AG head and Merkel had a 1-hour-plus meeting recently and Brexit never came up - the Germans have factored British losses in already and have moved on to growing non-EU markets. Shock perspective! (he mentions facts like even the EU market isn't the main market for German car manufacturers anymore).

But Scally also makes a very important, more fundamental point about Irish people: they're still ridiculously anglocentric in where they're getting their news from and thus many Irish are swallowing the self-delusion of the British media without ever tuning into (English language) French or German tv stations (which many/most people now have with UPC etc) to get views of Brexit from elsewhere in the EU. This point that Irish perceptions of the strength of Britain are exaggerated because they are watching too much British news cannot be made often enough, or loud enough. I couldn't agree more with his last point to the effect that we should now use Brexit to finally shift the country's focus from an Anglocentric one to a Eurocentric one. It's long, long overdue. Every time I hear these journalists on radio and television using examples from Britain for their comparisons it screams laziness and ignorance of the existence of better ways for doing things elsewhere in the EU or world.

The British are deluded about Germany’s fear of a no-deal Brexit: We are letting the British media make us doubt the strength of Berlin’s support

.... The idea that the German car industry would gang up on the chancellor to shore up a 20 per cent stake of their dwindling EU market is wishful thinking. That such thinking refuses to go away is an indication of British self-delusion. That such British self-delusion has penetrated many Irish minds – on Brexit and beyond – tells a story all its own.

Our shared language makes it almost impossible to escape the framing, messaging and spin emerging from our larger neighbour. Though loyal consumers of domestic media, many Irish also graze on British news throughout the day on their phones, leave Sky News running as they’re cooking dinner and tune into the BBC news and Newsnight before bed.

Knowing what the British are thinking and talking about in the Brexit debate is crucial. But not knowing what other big European neighbours are thinking and talking about is careless, even negligent.

The internet and cable/satellite television have opened up Europe and the world to us, but when was the last time you tuned into France24 reports on Brexit, or dipped into talk shows on DW – Germany’s (largely English-language) equivalent of the BBC World Service?

Instead, laziness and habit traps people on their sofas, inside a monolingual bubble, eating the Brexit crisps on offer from the UK.

It has been this way for centuries of close history, breeding what Prof Joe Lee described 30 years ago as a “dependence syndrome that had wormed its way into the Irish psyche during the long centuries of foreign dominance”.

“Reliance on the English model allowed a seductive economy of intellectual effort in Ireland,” he wrote.

He warned prophetically in 1989 that Ireland’s dependence syndrome towards the UK risks creating an inability to identify and define a problem “because it was unlikely to be perceived”.

This was never an issue given our parallel paths in the European Union – but now our paths are diverging. Our intellectual and cultural dependency on the UK has left many Irish minds unconsciously conditioned, more ready to believe British bluff on Berlin and its car industry over Merkel’s repeated promises of her “unconditional” support for Ireland in the Brexit process.

Ireland’s history in the EU to date has been about liberating itself economically from its larger neighbour. Brexit has expedited efforts to secure existing EU markets, identify new ones and secure trade routes to the European continent to shore up the economy.

But what is being done to shore up Irish minds? Where is the palpable boost in language teaching, the big spend on school and cultural exchange or even financing to rebroadcast, with subtitles, of other EU countries’ news? Done well, Brexit is a unique chance to connect with European culture and liberate Irish intellect from centuries of British cultural captivity. Done badly, or with the usual béal bocht approach, Brexit will push Ireland into a total eclipse of the mind.

Derek Scally is Berlin Correspondent

Professor Moriarty

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Basically, jobs for the lads (and lasses)



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019_en

Comparing the appointment of Cummings with the appointment of an EU Commissioner is farcical and pathetic. And utterly wrong.

Kidchameleon

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Basically, jobs for the lads (and lasses)



https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019_en

Yes, all of whom were nominated by their respective democratically elected national government. What is your problem with this? Do you want direct democracy elections for every government appointment? I certainly don't want decisions to be paralysed by our having an obligation to hold elections every second day. We have a representative democracy. Do you really think the EU Commission just chose Phil "Irish Water" Hogan out of thin air to be a commissioner? How you can scapegoat the EU for this, and blather on that this is an example of the EU's "democratic deficit" is a really distorted understanding of reality.

Jesus. The abject lies and scapegoating of the EU by Brexiteers is nothing if not predictable.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, all of whom were nominated by their respective democratically elected national government. What is your problem with this? Do you want direct democracy elections for every government appointment? I certainly don't want decisions to be paralysed by our having an obligation to hold elections every second day. We have a representative democracy. Do you really think the EU Commission just chose Phil "Irish Water" Hogan out of thin air to be a commissioner? How you can scapegoat the EU for this, and blather on that this is an example of the EU's "democratic deficit" is a really distorted understanding of reality.

Jesus. The abject lies and scapegoating of the EU by Brexiteers is nothing if not predictable.

The Commission must also be approved by the Council and The EU Parliament.

realitykeeper

mulbot wrote: »

Since when has there been an EU anthem?

For years. Ode to joy, the final movement from Beethoven`s 9th symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsydEtCpY-U

Back to topic, the sooner Britain leaves the EU the better. Ireland needs to get serious about boosting trade with the rest of the EU. If fact we should have been serious about doing that all along. Granted we Irish don`t do "seriousness" but I think it is time we started to do it. Cutting ties with Britain would be wonderful for Ireland. We could get serious about learning other EU languages and exploring alternative opportunities for our import and export markets. In short, Brexit means opportunity. I tried making this point years ago before the Brits voted in 2016 but the apron string brigade did not want to let go. Well, now they have to. So get on with it and smile. Look at me, I`m smiling

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The Commission must also be approved by the Council and The EU Parliament.

Yes, but the members - like Phil Hogan - are first and foremost nominated by the democratically elected national governments. And as the Council of Ministers is also composed of democratically elected politicians, representing each government, and the European Parliament is also composed of democratically elected politicians there are no fewer than 3 democratic bodies involved in the appointment of each member of the EU Commission. But to Brexiteers it's apparently "undemocratic".

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, but the members - like Phil Hogan - are first and foremost nominated by the democratically elected national governments. And as the Council of Ministers is also composed of democratically elected politicians, representing each government, and the European Parliament is also composed of democratically elected politicians there are no fewer than 3 democratic bodies involved in the appointment of each member of the EU Commission. But to Brexiteers it's apparently "undemocratic".

I know. Just like Dominic Cummings appointment.

Kidchameleon

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Comparing the appointment of Cummings with the appointment of an EU Commissioner is farcical and pathetic. And utterly wrong.

How so? Cummings was appointed by the democratically elected PM, the EC are appointed by democratically elected governments in the Eurozone, they are pretty much identical scenarios. In what way is it "utterly wrong" to say that?

Kidchameleon

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, all of whom were nominated by their respective democratically elected national government. What is your problem with this? Do you want direct democracy elections for every government appointment? I certainly don't want decisions to be paralysed by our having an obligation to hold elections every second day. We have a representative democracy. Do you really think the EU Commission just chose Phil "Irish Water" Hogan out of thin air to be a commissioner? How you can scapegoat the EU for this, and blather on that this is an example of the EU's "democratic deficit" is a really distorted understanding of reality.

Jesus. The abject lies and scapegoating of the EU by Brexiteers is nothing if not predictable.

I never said there was no democratic process involved in appointing the EC. There is a "democratic" process but it is a pantomime. We as a country have little or no say in that decision. Who the f*ck is Junker and what does he care about us? He is a complete p*ss head who has his fingers in so many pies I'd imagine he has lost count

Professor Moriarty

Kidchameleon wrote: »

How so? Cummings was appointed by the democratically elected PM, the EC are appointed by democratically elected governments in the Eurozone, they are pretty much identical scenarios. In what way is it "utterly wrong" to say that?

One person appointed Cummings. Whereas a government chooses a commissioner who then has to be ratified democratically by two elected bodies. Yes, obviously you're right.

fly_agaric

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I never said there was no democratic process involved in appointing the EC. There is a "democratic" process but it is a pantomime. We as a country have little or no say in that decision. Who the f*ck is Junker and what does he care about us? He is a complete p*ss head who has his fingers in so many pies I'd imagine he has lost count

Charming. Juncker is a politician who has put himself up before the people, if not for job he holds now. Most (all...?) of the EU commissioners are like that, ex polticians.
From a look at wikipedia Dominic Cummings is a political back room man-strategiser who has never put himself forward in front of any electorate and never will.

lufties

The One Doctor wrote: »

This. The British are well known for blaming others for their treaty breaking. And they'll blame us.

I would not be surprised if civil war erupts in the UK, and not just in NI.

Huge amount of Irish living in the UK who voted Brexit. Ke included. Nobody is blaming anybody.

Professor Moriarty

fly_agaric wrote: »

Charming. Juncker is a politician who has put himself up before the people, if not for job he holds now. Most (all...?) of the EU commissioners are like that, ex polticians.
From a look at wikipedia Dominic Cummings is a political back room man-strategiser who has never put himself forward in front of any electorate and never will.

In fact, Dominic isn't a great fan of British democracy. Here's Dominic talking about MPs:

"99% of MPs are dreadful characters and if you want anything professionally organised you've got to exclude them, which causes a lot of trouble".

Professor Moriarty

lufties wrote: »

Huge amount of Irish living in the UK who voted Brexit. Ke included. Nobody is blaming anybody.

Did you vote for Brexit?

fly_agaric

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In fact, Dominic isn't a great fan of British democracy. Here's Dominic talking about MPs:

"99% of MPs are dreadful characters and if you want anything professionally organised you've got to exclude them, which causes a lot of trouble".

Ha. Unfortunately he may be on to something though as the UKs' MPs seem to have performed poorly over the last few years of the Brexit mess.

El_Duderino 09

lufties wrote: »

Huge amount of Irish living in the UK who voted Brexit. Ke included. Nobody is blaming anybody.

Depends how you look at it. I imagine the percentage of Irish people who voted for brexit would be quite low. I'd be surprised if 20% of Irish people in the UK voted to leave.

Professor Moriarty

fly_agaric wrote: »

Ha. Unfortunately he may be on to something though as the UKs' MPs seem to have performed poorly over the last few years of the Brexit mess.

Fair point!

lufties

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Did you vote for Brexit?

No, because at the time I wasn't interested in politics. There is a lot of anti brit sentiment in Ireland, people need to move on. I'm Irish through and through but my experience in the UK has never once been one of xenophobia. I've always been well received. The people democratically voted Brexit and it needs to be honoured. Irish people are fed media bias day in day out by RTE. All whinging on this forum is nauseating.

lufties

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends how you look at it. I imagine the percentage of Irish people who voted for brexit would be quite low. I'd be surprised if 20% of Irish people in the UK voted to leave.

Well you might have a point, most Irish people are traditionally liberal. I've noticed ex colleagues I've worked with who move to Germany, benelux, Scandinavia, become ultra liberal, tattooed, piercings, overly virtue signalling,whacky clothes, social justice etc...perhaps it's just to fit in with their surroundings.

Personally, I'm truly anti establishment in spirit. The dominant culture is now leftism/globalism, so by default I go counter culture, and lean conservative. It's just my nature.

El_Duderino 09

lufties wrote: »

Well you might have a point, most Irish people are traditionally liberal. I've noticed ex colleagues I've worked with who move to Germany, benelux, Scandinavia, become ultra liberal, tattooed, piercings, overly virtue signalling,whacky clothes, social justice etc...perhaps it's just to fit in with their surroundings.

Personally, I'm truly anti establishment in spirit. The dominant culture is now leftism/globalism, so by default I go counter culture, and lean conservative. It's just my nature.

Edgy. Maybe you'll grow out of it some day and figure out what you actually think about the issues.

The approach of being anti culture is the most unthinking way to decide what to like.

Kidchameleon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Edgy. Maybe you'll grow out of it some day and figure out what you actually think about the issues.

The approach of being anti culture is the most unthinking way to decide what to like.

Who are you to be lecturing anybody?

lufties

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Edgy. Maybe you'll grow out of it some day and figure out what you actually think about the issues.

The approach of being anti culture is the most unthinking way to decide what to like.

Well in fairness when I lived in London I got sucked into the liberal bubble, I was just being a sheep. It didn't quite sit with my core beliefs. I guess I did grow up a bit and started to believe in meritocracy, and instead of being a victim and blaming everyone else, I decided to man up and take control of my life.

Core beliefs? A bit of a mixed bag...The decriminalisation of drugs, pro life, free speech, logical debate over emotions. I dont trust any of the mainstream media, they have agendas always.

I despise identity politics.

declanflynn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, all of whom were nominated by their respective democratically elected national government. What is your problem with this? Do you want direct democracy elections for every government appointment? I certainly don't want decisions to be paralysed by our having an obligation to hold elections every second day. We have a representative democracy. Do you really think the EU Commission just chose Phil "Irish Water" Hogan out of thin air to be a commissioner? How you can scapegoat the EU for this, and blather on that this is an example of the EU's "democratic deficit" is a really distorted understanding of reality.

Jesus. The abject lies and scapegoating of the EU by Brexiteers is nothing if not predictable.

I never said there was no democratic process involved in appointing the EC. There is a "democratic" process but it is a pantomime. We as a country have little or no say in that decision. Who the f*ck is Junker and what does he care about us? He is a complete p*ss head who has his fingers in so many pies I'd imagine he has lost count

He is doing a good job screwing britian so fair play to him

El_Duderino 09

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Who are you to be lecturing anybody?

you Considered that post a Lecture? Lol

El_Duderino 09

lufties wrote: »

Well in fairness when I lived in London I got sucked into the liberal bubble, I was just being a sheep. It didn't quite sit with my core beliefs. I guess I did grow up a bit and started to believe in meritocracy, and instead of being a victim and blaming everyone else, I decided to man up and take control of my life.

Core beliefs? A bit of a mixed bag...The decriminalisation of drugs, pro life, free speech, logical debate over emotions. I dont trust any of the mainstream media, they have agendas always.

I despise identity politics.

So you unthinkingly went with the flow, and now unthinkingly go agin the flow. Glad to hear you started to think about what you actually like.

Takes all sorts, I suppose.