Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Snickers Man

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I mean, a woman will generally be more agreeable than a man.

You wha'????? :eek::eek::eek:

You've obviously never heard of Margaret Thatcher.

Or met my wife.

Coming dear. Just updating my Bebo page.......

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

why in the history of the NHS?

Because extraordinary times bring extraordinary change. And the smart money seems to be on American corporations wanting a slice of the NHS pie, that Tories have always been willing to give away, Thatcher included.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because extraordinary times bring extraordinary change. And the smart money seems to be on American corporations wanting a slice of the NHS pie, that Tories have always been willing to give away, Thatcher included.

So who is the smart money you speak of?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

So who is the smart money you speak of?

I can't be bothered linking to many observers who say that the NHS will be front and centre of any US trade deal, for you to handwave it away as 'scaremongering'.

Google it, and you will see who is talking about it and who is warning that it is inevitable.

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

What is to stop US firms from bidding now?

There is nothing to stop a US firm from setting up its own private clinic in the UK either. There are plenty of private hospitals offering treatments already.

I can't recall who gave the analogy, but the NHS in British politics is like potholes in Ireland. Every opposition MP/Party highlights the shortcomings and claims to fix it when they are in power, but never actually do.

Mostly ideological opposition to privatising the NHS. The pothole analogy works to a extent but it breaks down when you consider how proud brits are of the public health service.

If they are forced to choose to sell off aspects of it to private companies it would be very hard to sell to the public. But the pro brexit people would have no choice but to support it. That's what cognitive dissonance was invented for.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't be bothered linking to many observers who say that the NHS will be front and centre of any US trade deal, for you to handwave it away as 'scaremongering'.

Google it, and you will see who is talking about it and who is warning that it is inevitable.

so you made a statement and can't back it up.

good man

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

so you made a statement and can't back it up.

good man

I can back it up. I am just not prepared to go to the bother of going to find links for a seasoned ear blocker to dismiss them in his/her usual way.

But you can start here, if you wish. No skin of my nose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=American+corporations+will+destroy+the+NHS+in+Brexit+trade+deal&ei=OsxKXZX8MIvzgQaKl5v4Cw&start=20&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwiVgbGW6fDjAhWLecAKHYrLBr84ChDy0wMIoQE&biw=1087&bih=542

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

so you made a statement and can't back it up.

good man

Ah no. That's very easy to find sources. But as the poster said, it's tradition on boards to ask for evidence, not to read it, but to handwave and dismiss it.

If you missed the numerous discussions about that topic in recent weeks then maybe go look it up. It's not ancient history, it was prevalent and recent.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Mostly ideological opposition to privatising the NHS. The pothole analogy works to a extent but it breaks down when you consider how proud brits are of the public health service.

If they are forced to choose to sell off aspects of it to private companies it would be very hard to sell to the public. But the pro brexit people would have no choice but to support it. That's what cognitive dissonance was invented for.

Where do you think the NHS gets it drugs from?

HCA Healthcare already owns a number of high profile hospitals in the UK and the famous Priory Group, where all the celebs go to battle addiction, is owned by Acadia group. Both of those organisations already provide numerous services to the NHS.

To enter the UK healthcare market, all a company has to do is to have a registered office there (or currently anywhere in the EU) and bid for any services the NHS issues a tender for.

https://www.ft.com/content/7795cb64-877d-11e9-97ea-05ac2431f453

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can back it up. I am just not prepared to go to the bother of going to find links for a seasoned ear blocker to dismiss them in his/her usual way.

But you can start here, if you wish. No skin of my nose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=American+corporations+will+destroy+the+NHS+in+Brexit+trade+deal&ei=OsxKXZX8MIvzgQaKl5v4Cw&start=20&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwiVgbGW6fDjAhWLecAKHYrLBr84ChDy0wMIoQE&biw=1087&bih=542

poster googles "American corporations will destroy the NHS in Brexit trade deal" and seems to think he will get unbiased results.

you couldn't make this stuff up:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

poster googles "American corporations will destroy the NHS in Brexit trade deal" and seems to think he will get unbiased results.

you couldn't make this stuff up:rolleyes:

What was I saying about handwaving?

https://www.google.com/search?ei=pdhKXamSBqTaxgPxyqN4&q=What+will+Brexit+mean+for+the+NHS&oq=What+will+Brexit+mean+for+the+NHS&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l4.2577809.2586310..2586646...0.0..0.1085.4613.19j11j1j1j7-1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i131i67j0i131j35i39j0i67.Y5k0lN9pCQ8&ved=&uact=5

https://www.google.com/search?ei=w-JKXcPZBuGI1fAPo4aLmAw&q=An+American+Trade+Deal+and+the+NHS&oq=An+American+Trade+Deal+and+the+NHS&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30.77386.88522..89169...1.0..0.1059.8892.3j16j5j2j3j2j0j2....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131i67j0i131j0i67j0j0i10j0i22i30.4nzP6owDTck&ved=&uact=5

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What was I saying about handwaving?

https://www.google.com/search?ei=pdhKXamSBqTaxgPxyqN4&q=What+will+Brexit+mean+for+the+NHS&oq=What+will+Brexit+mean+for+the+NHS&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l4.2577809.2586310..2586646...0.0..0.1085.4613.19j11j1j1j7-1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i131i67j0i131j35i39j0i67.Y5k0lN9pCQ8&ved=&uact=5

https://www.google.com/search?ei=w-JKXcPZBuGI1fAPo4aLmAw&q=An+American+Trade+Deal+and+the+NHS&oq=An+American+Trade+Deal+and+the+NHS&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30.77386.88522..89169...1.0..0.1059.8892.3j16j5j2j3j2j0j2....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131i67j0i131j0i67j0j0i10j0i22i30.4nzP6owDTck&ved=&uact=5

Oh dear Francie. You are as gullible as the Brexiteers who read about £350m for the NHS on the side of a bus. You haven't actually come up with anything, other than a few dramatic articles after the ambassadors ill thought out comments.

I have already shown you how American corporations are already involved in the NHS and how easy it is for them take a slice of the pie, as you put it. More or less the same accusations were made as part of the TTIP agreement between the EU and the US, but these were just handwaving as well.

As a government agency, when the NHS puts a sevice out to tender, they are legally obliged to publish it in the Official Journal of the EU, this means that any company in Europe can bid for it, that is the rules of the european union. If an American owned business has a presence in the EU, then there is nothing to stop them bidding.

So, how about you giving us an example of how, in real terms, an American corporation will be able to "Destroy the NHS"?

Edit: have a ead of this channel 4 article https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-will-a-trump-trade-deal-lead-to-the-privatisation-of-the-nhs

But I guess that is just hand waving:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Oh dear Francie. You are as gullible as the Brexiteers who read about £350m for the NHS on the side of a bus. You haven't actually come up with anything, other than a few dramatic articles after the ambassadors ill thought out comments.

I have already shown you how American corporations are already involved in the NHS and how easy it is for them take a slice of the pie, as you put it. More or less the same accusations were made as part of the TTIP agreement between the EU and the US, but these were just handwaving as well.

As a government agency, when the NHS puts a sevice out to tender, they are legally obliged to publish it in the Official Journal of the EU, this means that any company in Europe can bid for it, that is the rules of the european union. If an American owned business has a presence in the EU, then there is nothing to stop them bidding.

So, how about you giving us an example of how, in real terms, an American corporation will be able to "Destroy the NHS"?

Edit: have a ead of this channel 4 article https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-will-a-trump-trade-deal-lead-to-the-privatisation-of-the-nhs

But I guess that is just hand waving:rolleyes:

So a trade deal that will put huge pressures on NHS budgets...already stressed budgets, I might add and entirely ambiguous reactionary statements from Trump and his ambassador are reassuring?

Fingers in ears classic.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So a trade deal that will put huge pressures on NHS budgets...already stressed budgets, I might add and entirely ambiguous reactionary statements from Trump and his ambassador are reassuring?

Fingers in ears classic.

what are you on about now?

Oh, I see, you were shown to be wrong and now your off on a tangent somewhere.

off you go then

RobMc59

Aegir wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't be bothered linking to many observers who say that the NHS will be front and centre of any US trade deal, for you to handwave it away as 'scaremongering'.

Google it, and you will see who is talking about it and who is warning that it is inevitable.

so you made a statement and can't back it up.

good man

He read it in the beano.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

what are you on about now?

Oh, I see, you were shown to be wrong and now your off on a tangent somewhere.

off you go then

I read the article you posted. :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

Where do you think the NHS gets it drugs from?

HCA Healthcare already owns a number of high profile hospitals in the UK and the famous Priory Group, where all the celebs go to battle addiction, is owned by Acadia group. Both of those organisations already provide numerous services to the NHS.

To enter the UK healthcare market, all a company has to do is to have a registered office there (or currently anywhere in the EU) and bid for any services the NHS issues a tender for.

https://www.ft.com/content/7795cb64-877d-11e9-97ea-05ac2431f453

I don't suppose the NHS manufactures it's own medications. I presume they buy them. I presume they've always bought them. I also presume they but their equipment and fixtures. It never occurred to me that the NHS would manufacturer everything it uses. Did you think it would?

Kidchameleon

Snickers Man wrote: »

You wha'????? :eek::eek::eek:

You've obviously never heard of Margaret Thatcher.

Or met my wife.

Coming dear. Just updating my Bebo page.......

I said "in general", there are always exceptions.


The science of it is pretty clear. Women are generally more agreeable than men.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't suppose the NHS manufactures it's own medications. I presume they buy them. I presume they've always bought them. I also presume they but their equipment and fixtures. It never occurred to me that the NHS would manufacturer everything it uses. Did you think it would?

That's my point. The NHS already spends, literally, billions with American pharmaceutical companies, medical device manufacturers etc. How is a trade deal going to give US companies any more access to the NHS than they already have?

OK, they complain that the NHS underpays for drugs as it must be one of the biggest buyers of pharmaceuticals in the world, but boo ****ing hoo, my heart bleeds for them.

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

That's my point. The NHS already spends, literally, billions with American pharmaceutical companies, medical device manufacturers etc. How is a trade deal going to give US companies any more access to the NHS than they already have?

OK, they complain that the NHS underpays for drugs as it must be one of the biggest buyers of pharmaceuticals in the world, but boo ****ing hoo, my heart bleeds for them.

I've no problem with them buying things from specialists. Privatising the point of access, privatising services, increasing necessity for private health insurance for health care beyond the most basic services.

The American system is a shambles Compared to the NHS in terms of availability to the public. But as I said, we won't know anything for sure until the Halloween deadline. Deal, no Deal or extension.

Snickers Man

Kidchameleon wrote: »

What are people not getting about the referendum, they were asked simply if they wanted to leave or remain. They chose to leave, it is really really simple!

It's what happens when you hold an opinion poll and then call it a referendum.

Yes. They voted to leave. We know that, they know that, or rather they feel they do. But when they come to think about it, they just can't seem to get their heads around what leaving actually means and putting together crank outfits called "Leave means Leave" doesn't help at all.

In this country, referendums are about accepting or rejecting amendments to the constitution. We vote, effectively, on whether we want a legally binding article which either describes and defines a part of the apparatus of government (eg the Seanad referendum) or either restricts or empowers the government of the day with regard to how it may legislate on a particular issue.

An example of restrictive articles we voted into the constitution were the 8th amendment (You can't legislate for abortion on demand--effectively) or the one making the death penalty unconstitutional. An example of "empowering" amendments were the repeal of the aforementioned 8th Amendment and the "marriage equality" referendum which simply put into teh constituion an article saying "marriage can be transacted between two people regardless of their gender".

It's up to the legislators to write and enact the laws; the constitution acts as a legally binding framework within which they must operate. The Supreme Court adjudicates on challenges to whether or not a piece of legislation complies with the Constitution.

Not having such a legally binding apparatus, the Brits were asked "do you want to stay or go?" and now THEY are trying to work out what going means. Especially when it comes up against impediments created by other inter-state treaties such as those emanating from the GFA.

They basically don't have a mechanism for coping with referendums. They are not a republic, after all but a monarchy. With a hereditary head of state, who is also head of an established religion and an unrepresentative, unelected upper house (the House of Lords) which includes by right several senior members of the aforementioned state religion. And they/you have the nerve to say the EU is "undemocratic"!!!

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Do FIFA have an army?

Let's nail this canard because we may as well be clear about things as the situation unravels.

There has been a European army (effectively a western European army) for 70 years. It's called NATO. The continental countries by and large were far more committed to it than Britain ever was.

Countries like France, Belgium, Denmark and Germany had compulsory military service for all male citizens during the Cold War. (Britain stopped the practice as early as 1960). I don't remember too many British conservatives complaining about such "undemocratic war mongering" at the time. If there were any protests coming out of Britain back then it was from the CND tendency (Communists, Nihilists and Defeatists, according to the lovely Lady Olga Maitland MP, chairperson of the charmingly named Families for Defence), not from the Brexiteer Bunch.

There is no likelihood that any future "European Army" would be any more tightly integrated or have any pull over any member state that did not agree to become part of its military structures. It would be "NATO light", ie a military alliance between consenting independent countries, just unlikely to include the USA. Or Britain.

I am not saying I welcome this turn of events but that is the situation that the tides of history are washing up to our shores. Unlike NATO v Warsaw Pact, the new division between United Europe, for want of a better term, on one hand and "The Anglosphere" of the USA and UK on the other means that instead of being way behind enemy lines where we couldn't do any harm and nobody was likely to bother us we are now bang on the Front Line. We have to decide who serves us best: Britain/America or Europe.

Read a history book and decide for yourself.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I've no problem with them buying things from specialists. Privatising the point of access, privatising services, increasing necessity for private health insurance for health care beyond the most basic services.

The American system is a shambles Compared to the NHS in terms of availability to the public. But as I said, we won't know anything for sure until the Halloween deadline. Deal, no Deal or extension.

You’re talking about the break up of the NHS. That is something very very different to privatisation, where the NHS outsourced certain services to private companies, but importantly still free at the point of use.

A British politician attempting to break up the NHS would be commiting political suicide.

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

You’re talking about the break up of the NHS. That is something very very different to privatisation, where the NHS outsourced certain services to private companies, but importantly still free at the point of use.

A British politician attempting to break up the NHS would be commiting political suicide.

OK. What do you think Trump was talking about when he said everything was on the table in a trade deal, including the NHS? Just to clarify, I took it to mean just what it said. What does the US care about the fate of a UK PM? It's a trade deal the UK need because they're In a weak position. Nothing is off the table u less they're feeling particularly nice about the trade negotiations.

InTheShadows

Kidchameleon wrote: »

There is no arguing with Europhiles, its like talking to a wall. You little club is crumbling my friend.

I have noticed the exact same thing on here. Real head in the sand stuff.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. What do you think Trump was talking about when he said everything was on the table in a trade deal, including the NHS? Just to clarify, I took it to mean just what it said. What does the US care about the fate of a UK PM? It's a trade deal the UK need because they're In a weak position. Nothing is off the table u less they're feeling particularly nice about the trade negotiations.

Trump didn’t have a clue what he was talking about. When he was asked about the NHS, I doubt he even knew what it was.

FrancieBrady

If there is money to be made from it, Trump knows about it.

The fact is a severely weakened (by No Deal) Britain, going into a trade deal thinking the health system will be out of bounds because of some sentimental attachment to it, is a nonsense. They won't be setting the terms and they will be the desperate party.

First Up

InTheShadows wrote:

I have noticed the exact same thing on here. Real head in the sand stuff.

Why does this thread remind me of the Black Knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

El_Duderino 09

Aegir wrote: »

Trump didn’t have a clue what he was talking about. When he was asked about the NHS, I doubt he even knew what it was.

OK. What was his ambassador to the UK talking about when he said the same thing? Presuming the ambassador lives here and knows what it is.

The ambassador said it first, then they asked Trump and he agreed the NHS was on the table. So let's go with the ambassador

declanflynn

InTheShadows wrote: »

trashcan wrote: »

Christ, are punters in the UK really taking this stuff seriously? Boris is playing a game of chicken on a bicycle against a truck.

Wrong. A No Deal exit brings about a recession in Europe and will be the start of the end for the European project. Boris knows it and so does the EU.

Yeah and britain will boom after a no deal brexit?

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can back it up. I am just not prepared to go to the bother of going to find links for a seasoned ear blocker to dismiss them in his/her usual way.

But you can start here, if you wish. No skin of my nose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=American+corporations+will+destroy+the+NHS+in+Brexit+trade+deal&ei=OsxKXZX8MIvzgQaKl5v4Cw&start=20&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwiVgbGW6fDjAhWLecAKHYrLBr84ChDy0wMIoQE&biw=1087&bih=542

poster googles "American corporations will destroy the NHS in Brexit trade deal" and seems to think he will get unbiased results.

you couldn't make this stuff up:rolleyes:

If you had a car, desperately needed to sell it and could only find one buyer do you think you would get a good price for it?