Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

Brian?

Silentcorner wrote: »

Everyone hates fascists, I was just quoting an Italian saying..no difference between a fascist and a socialist in terms of end result and method!

This is pure nonsense. There are democratic socialists, libertarian socialists and anarchists who all abhor authoritarianism. You can't be a fascist without authoritarianism.

About the only things Antifa and Fascists have in common is a penchant for political violence. And the last few days have proven they don't have much of a penchant for violence, the FBI can't find any evidence of it. They have arrested some fascists though.

James Brown

Silentcorner wrote: »

Correct, two extreme's....with very similar methods and results.

Abuse the democratic process by any means necessary, control the media, use violence and anarchy to achieve power.

Where one's goal is allegedly fairness and equality and the others is dictatorship under an unelected regime?
Are you confusing dictatorships claiming to be communists/socialist with the very ideology brought us all of the freedoms we enjoy?
I know there's a strong move to defend far right fascism by making it seem fascism and anti-fascism are interchangeable, but this is silly.

Overheal

Silentcorner wrote: »

Correct, two extreme's....with very similar methods and results.

Abuse the democratic process by any means necessary, control the media, use violence and anarchy to achieve power.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Everyone hates fascists, I was just quoting an Italian saying..no difference between a fascist and a socialist in terms of end result and method!

What result?

What method?

patnor1011

There are many types of socialism or communism. It was tried and tested in many countries with many flavour added yet proven as not working and a bad choice. Few remaining countries which try to keep it alive do it only by force and are destined to fail - it is just a matter of a time.

It is really troubling to see how many people here are intrigued and want to introduce some sort of it here despite simple historical fact that everywhere where it was introduced people actually fought against it. It is flawed and not functioning idealistic concept destined to fail every time.

Brian?

patnor1011 wrote: »

There are many types of socialism or communism. It was tried and tested in many countries with many flavour added yet proven as not working and a bad choice. Few remaining countries which try to keep it alive do it only by force and are destined to fail - it is just a matter of a time.

It is really troubling to see how many people here are intrigued and want to introduce some sort of it here despite simple historical fact that everywhere where it was introduced people actually fought against it. It is flawed and not functioning idealistic concept destined to fail every time.

You live in Ireland?

jackboy

Brian? wrote: »

You live in Ireland?

FG are right wing according to most on the left.

Richard Hillman

The left/right wing thing is an outdated concept, or has possibly been so misinterpreted that it has became irrelevant.

For me, Right Wing should be small government, low taxes, every man for themselves, society will naturally lead on social issues, the market will sort itself out. Left wing is big government, large taxes, no person left behind, social manufacturing, control the market.

Maggie Thatcher - Right Wing
Hillary Clinton - Centre
Obama - Centre
Varadkar - Left Wing
Trump - a little bit left, a little bit right but you couldn't really say centre
Antifa - Left Wing
Hitler/Stalin/Mao - Left Wing

Now a days Left-Right seem to be defined on Social Issues.

Silentcorner

patnor1011 wrote: »

There are many types of socialism or communism. It was tried and tested in many countries with many flavour added yet proven as not working and a bad choice. Few remaining countries which try to keep it alive do it only by force and are destined to fail - it is just a matter of a time.

It is really troubling to see how many people here are intrigued and want to introduce some sort of it here despite simple historical fact that everywhere where it was introduced people actually fought against it. It is flawed and not functioning idealistic concept destined to fail every time.

It is the only good thing about this country if you ask me....any raging nationalist fascist wouldn't be taken seriously, I don't think we have even produced one...just like the Communist/Socialist nutjobs even though some have been elected here!!

I think we all know that giving our state even more power over us would be a disaster and would collapse within months due to infighting and overspends...we are a mess as it is!!!

RWCNT

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The left/right wing thing is an outdated concept, or has possibly been so misinterpreted that it has became irrelevant.

For me, Right Wing should be small government, low taxes, every man for themselves, society will naturally lead on social issues, the market will sort itself out. Left wing is big government, large taxes, no person left behind, social manufacturing, control the market.

Maggie Thatcher - Right Wing
Hillary Clinton - Centre
Obama - Centre
Varadkar - Left Wing
Trump - a little bit left, a little bit right but you couldn't really say centre
Antifa - Left Wing
Hitler/Stalin/Mao - Left Wing


Now a days Left-Right seem to be defined on Social Issues.

Try again, and please, for the love of god, spend five minutes checking out what the bulk of historians conclude before coming back to me with "They were called the national SOCIALIST party".

I actually agree with you on the social issues bit. I've seen people call environmentalist and pro-animal rights stances left wing recently and it makes little sense to me.

God, it's impressive the number of people who are dumb enough to believe Hitler was on the left....

Also most European countries have adopted some form of socialism. Eg socialised healthcare is Europe wide to different degrees.

Overheal

Silentcorner wrote: »

Correct, two extreme's....with very similar methods and results.

Abuse the democratic process by any means necessary, control the media, use violence and anarchy to achieve power.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Everyone hates fascists, I was just quoting an Italian saying..no difference between a fascist and a socialist in terms of end result and method!

What result?

What method?

RWCNT

Deleted User wrote: »

God, it's impressive the number of people who are dumb enough to believe Hitler was on the left....

Also most European countries have adopted some form of socialism. Eg socialised healthcare is Europe wide to different degrees.

I think going against the overwhelming consensus holds a certain appeal for a lot of people. If you have an inflated idea of your own knowledge and intelligence you'll presume yourself to be smarter/more informed than most people. Therefore if you find some nonsense somewhere that claims the opposite of the overwhelming consensus (e.g. Nazis were left wing) then you can adopt that viewpoint, providing ample opportunities to say "Actually..." and drop your perceived "truth bomb" (to borrow a phrase I saw a poster on here use, who is absolutely this type of person).

Silentcorner

Overheal wrote: »

What result?

What method?

Complete control of a political system.

AS I already mentioned, which clearly you missed somehow, Socialists and Fascists abuse the democratic process by any means necessary, control media and use violence and anarchy to gain absolute power.

I am referring to the extremes of the political spectrum.

Neither extreme have ever worked out, radicals are too entrenched in the ideology and can never be trusted with power. Socialism requires a centralized authoritarian system as does fascism....in either it is the citizen who ends up dead or in a miserable existence.

Brian?

jackboy wrote: »

FG are right wing according to most on the left.

Yes, they are the most right wing mainstream party in Ireland.

However, you live in a Social Democracy.

Brian?

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The left/right wing thing is an outdated concept, or has possibly been so misinterpreted that it has became irrelevant.

For me, Right Wing should be small government, low taxes, every man for themselves, society will naturally lead on social issues, the market will sort itself out. Left wing is big government, large taxes, no person left behind, social manufacturing, control the market.

Maggie Thatcher - Right Wing
Hillary Clinton - Centre
Obama - Centre
Varadkar - Left Wing
Trump - a little bit left, a little bit right but you couldn't really say centre
Antifa - Left Wing
Hitler/Stalin/Mao - Left Wing

Now a days Left-Right seem to be defined on Social Issues.

Hitler, left wing? Are you joking ?

jackboy

Brian? wrote: »

Yes, they are the most right wing mainstream party in Ireland.

However, you live in a Social Democracy.

Yeah but in reality the main parties are pretty central and have few policies at the extreme end.

When people are against socialists or right wingers they are generally talking about those at the extreme ends.

Silentcorner

Brian? wrote: »

Hitler, left wing? Are you joking ?

The confusion is in the name of the political party, National Socialist German Workers Party....but you know that.

Of course Hitler and the Nazi Party were fascists.

I think when antisemitism is on the rise, that is when those political extreme's begin to manifest themselves.

Which unfortunately we have seen in recent years in the UK and the US.

ohnonotgmail

Silentcorner wrote: »

The confusion is in the name of the political party, National Socialist German Workers Party....but you know that.

Of course Hitler and the Nazi Party were fascists.

I think when antisemitism is on the rise, that is when those political extreme's begin to manifest themselves.

Which unfortunately we have seen in recent years in the UK and the US.

that confusion is only in the minds of the terminally thick or those with an agenda.

ohnonotgmail

Silentcorner wrote: »

Correct, two extreme's....with very similar methods and results.

Abuse the democratic process by any means necessary, control the media, use violence and anarchy to achieve power.

socialism is an extreme? there is a lot of extremists in the world so.

Silentcorner

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

socialism is an extreme? there is a lot of extremists in the world so.

Jesus Christ...have I not said on more than one occasion, I am referring to the political extremes....

Brian?

jackboy wrote: »

.

When people are against socialists or right wingers they are generally talking about those at the extreme ends.

If that’s what they mean, then they should say it.

So extremel right wing is fascism, what’s extreme left wing?

ohnonotgmail

Brian? wrote: »

If that’s what they mean, then they should say it.

So extremel right wing is fascism, what’s extreme left wing?

according to Silent corner it is socialism. i dont understand it either.

Silentcorner

Brian? wrote: »

If that’s what they mean, then they should say it.

So extremel right wing is fascism, what’s extreme left wing?

OK, you tell us, what is extreme left wing politics, and are there any examples that we would be familiar with?

Silentcorner

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

according to Silent corner it is socialism. i dont understand it either.

What is your understanding of extreme left wing politics? Enlighten me...

Brian?

Silentcorner wrote: »

OK, you tell us, what is extreme left wing politics, and are there any examples that we would be familiar with?

There are many, some peaceful and anti authoritarian and some strongly authoritarian. Which is the point I’m trying to make.

Take socialism as an ethos. The end goal is communism. Actually communism, not what happened in the USSR. There are many paths to the utopian, non hierarchical, post scarcity society that is communism. Bolshevism, Maoism and Stalinism are the ones people seem to quote as “extreme left”. However there are plenty of pacifist socialists who believe a strong central authority is the enemy of social progress and won’t lead to communism. No one talks about these people because they equate political extremes with negativity.

You can be a libertarian socialist pacifist. That’s about as extreme a left wing position as anyone can take. Is that inherently bad?

Silentcorner

Brian? wrote: »

There are many, some peaceful and anti authoritarian and some strongly authoritarian. Which is the point I’m trying to make.

Take socialism as an ethos. The end goal is communism. Actually communism, not what happened in the USSR. There are many paths to the utopian, non hierarchical, post scarcity society that is communism. Bolshevism, Maoism and Stalinism are the ones people seem to quote as “extreme left”. However there are plenty of pacifist socialists who believe a strong central authority is the enemy of social progress and won’t lead to communism. No one talks about these people because they equate political extremes with negativity.

You can be a libertarian socialist pacifist. That’s about as extreme a left wing position as anyone can take. Is that inherently bad?

So, just to be clear.... you believe that a libertarian socialist pacifist is about as extreme a left wing position anyone can take....

Brian?

Silentcorner wrote: »

So, just to be clear.... you believe that a libertarian socialist pacifist is about as extreme a left wing position anyone can take....

I do, why wouldn’t it be?

Brian?

I would comment that pacifism itself is an extreme or radical position to take.

Both extreme and radical are increasingly used as pejoratives, but they shouldn’t be. Most of the leaps forward in civil rights were taken by people being extreme radicals.

kowloon

Has anyone considered mixing fascists and anti-fascists in some sort of reactor as a means of generating energy?

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I would comment that pacifism itself is an extreme or radical position to take.

Both extreme and radical are increasingly used as pejoratives, but they shouldn’t be. Most of the leaps forward in civil rights were taken by people being extreme radicals.

And what's extreme is very dependent on location. Eg Bernie Sanders and AOC are viewed as "far left" in the US. They're pretty standard as European politicians go. Marriage equality would have been considered extreme politics fifteen years ago here...