Willie Frazer has died

Yamanoto

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Why don't you say that about any criticism of anything so? Why just this? It really looks like you're attempting to shut down criticism of loyalist rhetoric specifically.

Zero problem expressing the same disdain for apologists of Loyalist violence as I do for IRA fanboys hereabouts.

Considerably less opportunity to do so, for reasons blindingly obvious.

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

I don't seek the stuff out or share it - what are you on about? And my criticism of loyalist bigotry is hardly just to do with what they say about the deaths of republican figureheads. Holycross - better just "ignore" that...

You referenced my initial reply to Fan of Netflix 'Criticism is not fetishisation'.

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

I am not a republican - I'm just an Irish person who will obviously be critical of a group of people that views me as the enemy for no reason and advocates the killing of other Irish people. This would be a rational view to most, but not to many in Ireland, who think only a radical could hold that view, and that we should ignore it but endlessly criticise the other crowd..

Actually, the rational position would be to unequivocally condemn violence, subversion and a contempt for the democratic process, from whatever quarter such poison stems.

Most folks in Ireland are remarkably fair handed in that respect, thank god.

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Wha? You already said that and I acknowledged it with "Yeah that I get, but it still doesn't explain the below: (quote from Mad_maxx) Equal criticism surely makes more sense. Loyalists didn't claim to be acting in our name but they do consider us the enemy and they were just killing and mistreating our fellow fenians..."

The contortions people twist themselves into to downplay loyalist extremism...

What's your angle here? Do you believe there's been insufficient discussion of Loyalist violence in our media, or there's a bias which is selectively condemnatory of one side over the other?

If you do believe that to be so, why do you think our discourse may have evolved in such a way?

Gimme A Pound

Yamanoto wrote: »

Actually, the rational position would be to unequivocally condemn violence, subversion and a contempt for the democratic process, from whatever quarter such poison stems.

Exactly. But (and to answer your closing question) during the conflict there wasn't an equal focus on all of the violence and atrocities in Northern Ireland.

Shelob1

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think this could be a good thread where people set aside their differences to offer condolences or have an honest reflection about the life of Frazer but it's already been ruined, and not by republicans.

No the people that really ruin it are the people who start new accounts to pretend to be from the unionist community. Do you really think you're honouring unionism and the whole ideology behind it by using the ideology to start a fake account designed to annoy posters on an Irish website? Is that what unionism is? Is that how much Willie Frazer meant to the community? He meant so much that no real unionist posters can offer their view? Just a serial rereg and someone who starts an account so he can pretend to be at their funeral? Is there any real unionists here or is that what unionism is now?

I am a Unionist and I will be attending. It is near Markethill. You accuse others of ruining the thread but you have been as disrespectful as anyone in this thread.

Shelob1

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are a few ways to engage in politics and campaigning. Some are smart and play the very long game, make what at the beginning seem like extreme or outlandish ideas completely normal and accepted. Thats a rare skill, to slowly heat the water under the frog, and it takes a couple of generations to bed in.

On the other hand, you have clowns. Clowns like we see in the World around us today who do their cause no favours with their extremism and failure to bring others along in the long term because it generates backlash, friction, polarisation and a difficult and temporary tenure for their idealogy.

Fraser was such a clown. As mentioned earlier, the diametric opposite to a David Ervine, or a Martin McGuinness. He could have tried to be a Thatcher or Reagan but he chose to be Johnson or Trump. From that point of view, long term peace, mutual respect and equality in Ireland will be helped by his departure. There are a few more on both sides that could follow him frankly. The pragmatic unionist / loyalist now is the one who looks ahead to plan for how their community shall live exactly as they do now, with their British identities and traditions and a regional governance but in a United Ireland.

Fraser wasnt any of that and so despite the personal bereavement for his family at such a young age, to society he was no loss.

Martin Mcguinness? Martin Mcguinness was responsible for hundreds of murders and was a nasty vindictive terrorist. Absolutely brutal in carrying out his orders (See Claudy bombing) and wouldn't bat an eyelid on Irish Garda being shot by IRA terrorists.

This idea that Martin Mcguinness was some lovely guy who did nothing wrong and was all about peace is utter revisionist nonsense. It has as much validity behind it as those who say Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA and that would be zero.

Disagree with his politics all you want but he never murdered anyone and never planted a bomb to murder children like a certain Mcguinness did.

steddyeddy

Shelob1 wrote: »

I am a Unionist and I will be attending. It is near Markethill. You accuse others of ruining the thread but you have been as disrespectful as anyone in this thread.

I've offered my condolences. Sorry S but we'll have to agree to disagree there. You're so upset by the death of Frazer, a pillar of the unionist community that the first thing you did was set up an account on Boards.ie to post about it?

Gimme A Pound

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've offered my condolences.

I wouldn't even bother. They saw clearly that you were respectful.

janfebmar

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Exactly. But (and to answer your closing question) during the conflict there wasn't an equal focus on all of the violence and atrocities in Northern Ireland.

Correct. You are right there. Between 1971 and 1989 for example, there were 203 murders in the Fermanagh and south Tyrone area alone, of which 178 were committed by Republicans. Yet only 14 of those murders resulted in people being convicted.

Larbre34

Shelob1 wrote: »

Martin Mcguinness? Martin Mcguinness was responsible for hundreds of murders and was a nasty vindictive terrorist. Absolutely brutal in carrying out his orders (See Claudy bombing) and wouldn't bat an eyelid on Irish Garda being shot by IRA terrorists.

This idea that Martin Mcguinness was some lovely guy who did nothing wrong and was all about peace is utter revisionist nonsense. It has as much validity behind it as those who say Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA and that would be zero.

Disagree with his politics all you want but he never murdered anyone and never planted a bomb to murder children like a certain Mcguinness did.

I know that. The point is the journey he took to the centre ground. Ian Paisley Sr never murdered anyone himself but he advocated for division, unrest, segregation, sectarianism, subjugation and the kind of civil unrest that did lead to death and destitution. But he made a journey too. Fraser never made any such effort.

Bobblehats

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Frazer was a bit 'touched' for whatever reason, but for people to come in here and make sneid remarks about him just as he's dies is very crass, and then to also "big up" & excuse Adams major part in all the death & mayhem......

Yeah scathing. I wonder will there be a turn of fraze from the auld grave

Odhinn

Bobblehats wrote: »

Yeah scathing. I wonder will there be a turn of fraze from the auld grave

...wherever and whenever somebody pretends to receive death threats through the post, he'll be there. Whenever somebody burns the wrong countrys fleg, he'll be there.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct. You are right there. Between 1971 and 1989 for example, there were 203 murders in the Fermanagh and south Tyrone area alone, of which 178 were committed by Republicans. Yet only 14 of those murders resulted in people being convicted.

Speaking of which....wasnt there a falling out by the families involved here and frazer


He was asked not to represent them anymore afaik....and hence why he dropped it like a hot potatoe



Its curious you bear no concern of the 140 or so innocent victims killed by glennane gang,who are actually relevent to this thread given frazer senior invlovement with them

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Speaking of which....wasnt there a falling out by the families involved here and frazer


He was asked not to represent them anymore afaik....and hence why he dropped it like a hot potatoe



Its curious you bear no concern of the 140 or so innocent victims killed by glennane gang,who are actually relevent to this thread given frazer senior invlovement with them

According to the police "Fraser senior" as you call him (Fraser's father) had no involvement with the Glennane gang, before he was murdered. And even if he had, should a son answer for the crimes of his father?

I condemn the glenanne gang and all loyalist paramilitaries as much as I condemn republican paramilitaries. There is no evidence Willie Fraser had anything to do with the activities of the glennane gang, as far as I know.

Junkyard Tom

The Glenanne Gang was populated by RUC/UDR serial killers so herself knows exactly what she's doing when she tries to create distance between unionist terrorists and the so-called security forces. Already addressed and ignored here some time ago.

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Speaking of which....wasnt there a falling out by the families involved here and frazer

I checked out your claim online and as far as I can see you are wrong. Quote:
"Kenny Donaldson, Director of Services with victims group, the South East Fermanagh Foundation, also paid tribute.

“SEFF’s deepest sympathies are with the Frazer family after the sad passing of Willie, earlier this afternoon,” he said.

“First and foremost Willie was loved and cherished by his own family but many others loved him too and then there are friends and indeed those who might have been understood as opponents but who held a healthy respect for him based on his family’s lived experience of sectarian and ethnic motivated terrorism - terrorism which stole 6 members of Willie’s family”.

“Willie committed a substantive section of his life to fighting innocent victim’s issues and is most closely associated with the case to secure compensation for Gadaffi’s terror victims murdered by The Provisional IRA and also of pursuing fuel and diesel smugglers and criminals operating in south Armagh and our borderlands. He was also the prominent campaigner alongside the Kingsmill families consistently supporting their efforts down the years”.

“Willie was a unique individual, he had sharp wit and could be very charming. Yes he had flaws but so too does every one of us”."

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Glenanne Gang was populated by RUC/UDR serial killers so herself knows exactly what she's doing when she tries to create distance between unionist terrorists and the so-called security forces.

I do not see Willie Frasers name on that list, so what is its relevance to this thread? Hundreds of thousands of people served in the security forces over the course of the troubles, and you got so many of your other facts wrong, I fail to see its relevance.

janfebmar

janfebmar wrote: »

I checked out your claim online and as far as I can see you are wrong. Quote:
"Kenny Donaldson, Director of Services with victims group, the South East Fermanagh Foundation, also paid tribute.

“SEFF’s deepest sympathies are with the Frazer family after the sad passing of Willie, earlier this afternoon,” he said.

“First and foremost Willie was loved and cherished by his own family but many others loved him too and then there are friends and indeed those who might have been understood as opponents but who held a healthy respect for him based on his family’s lived experience of sectarian and ethnic motivated terrorism - terrorism which stole 6 members of Willie’s family”.

“Willie committed a substantive section of his life to fighting innocent victim’s issues and is most closely associated with the case to secure compensation for Gadaffi’s terror victims murdered by The Provisional IRA and also of pursuing fuel and diesel smugglers and criminals operating in south Armagh and our borderlands. He was also the prominent campaigner alongside the Kingsmill families consistently supporting their efforts down the years”.

“Willie was a unique individual, he had sharp wit and could be very charming. Yes he had flaws but so too does every one of us”."







I do not see Willie Frasers name on that list, so what is its relevance to this thread? Hundreds of thousands of people served in the security forces over the course of the troubles, and you got so many of your other facts wrong, I fail to see its relevance.

I've not read all the thread... But, Willie seems to have been sectarian in his pursuit of justice. Some victims more equal than others as it were. That in itself says a lot about the man. And he seems very unfortunate or unlucky to have lost 6 family members.

McMurphy

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct. You are right there. Between 1971 and 1989 for example, there were 203 murders in the Fermanagh and south Tyrone area alone, of which 178 were committed by Republicans. Yet only 14 of those murders resulted in people being convicted.

Mary the number cruncher memory man.

Mad_maxx

I see Ivan Cooper died in the last few days, now there was a man in sharp contrast to Mr frazier, saw that his tribe were systematically oppressing the Catholic population and despite being accused of treachery by his own people, became a significant figure in the civil rights movement, a man who could have lived a comfortable life looking the other way but didn't, kind of figure who didn't get enough recognition due perhaps to them not possessing a towering personality

James nesbitt played him in a TV drama about bloody Sunday

joe swanson

Willie indeed was a sectarian man ,consumed by hatred.

However, he was not a murderer . He was a result of the tragedy brought upon his family .

If any one of us had experienced such losses in life through that manner , I can guarantee we would carry a hatred for the people that did it.

He wasn't a nice man , in fact he was far from it. But he was a result of circumstance

McMurphy

joe swanson wrote: »

Willie indeed was a sectarian man ,consumed by hatred.

However, he was not a murderer . He was a result of the tragedy brought upon his family .

If any one of us had experienced such losses in life through that manner , I can guarantee we would carry a hatred for the people that did it.

He wasn't a nice man , in fact he was far from it. But he was a result of circumstance

Willy didn't just have a hatred for "the people that did it" though, did he?

Willy hated Catholic and Irish people, period.

We are talking about a man who organised the love Ulster rally through Dublin here.

I take no pleasure, nor would be mocking his passing, but let's not ignore the elephant in the room - he was a bigoted bumbling idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RL_eEM3xTA

Danzy

Willie came from a family stepped In murderous intent for his Irish neighbours.

Which they acted on and helped others in.

janfebmar

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Willy hated Catholic and Irish people, period.

He hated extremist Republicans because they murdered his father and 5 other members of his close family, as well as numerous friends. He did not grow up hating Catholics, but it is probably fair to say he grew to hate them because of what he saw as ethnic cleansing done against protestants along the border.

You say he hated Irish people - well Ian Paisley described himself as Irish, from the island of Ireland ,do you think he hated Ian Paisley?

Deleted User wrote: »

Willie seems to have been sectarian in his pursuit of justice. Some victims more equal than others as it were.

Many people do indeed see some victims being more equal than other victims, with no inquiry for the victims of Republican violence. Willie said he wanted all victims to be treated equally.

Danzy wrote: »

Willie came from a family stepped In murderous intent for his Irish neighbours.

No proof of that.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We are talking about a man who organised the love Ulster rally through Dublin here.

He wanted a peaceful parade of victims of Republican violence, and the parade was not opposed by the main Irish political parties and the march was authorised by the Garda Síochána.

_blaaz

Willie said he wanted all victims to be treated equally.

Which is of course why he wouldnt represent catholics

Odhinn

janfebmar wrote: »

Many people do indeed see some victims being more equal than other victims, with no inquiry for the victims of Republican violence. Willie said he wanted all victims to be treated equally.

What willie seemed to want was to fiddle the books of his charities.



..........but he did nothing for the families of the two young protestants killed in his UVF bar. They had to go to SF.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Andrew_Robb_and_David_McIlwaine

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Which is of course why he wouldnt represent catholics

Lots of catholics were killed in the security forces, I am sure he condemned the murderers of them too and called for the murderers of them to be brought to justice too.

Odhinn

janfebmar wrote: »

Lots of catholics were killed in the security forces, I am sure he condemned the murderers of them too and called for the murderers of them to be brought to justice too.

Why did willie share a plaftfrom with an associate of white power movements and the KKK?
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Tribune/arts2004/apr25_IMC_Pratt_FAIR__SMcKay.php

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

Lots of catholics were killed in the security forces, I am sure he condemned the murderers of them too and called for the murderers of them to be brought to justice too.

Except he didnt....his group.was set up for innocent victims of republican violence (nothing wrong with this btw)

He was approached by family of a catholic killed by republicans and didnt attend meetings/help.them out??

he's a bigot (didnt think catholics could be innocent victims) who used victims familys to pocket grant money for himself,this is what caused his fall out the families of fermanagh victims....they didnt wamt to be associated with him

McMurphy

janfebmar wrote: »

You say he hated Irish people - well Ian Paisley described himself as Irish, from the island of Ireland ,do you think he hated Ian Paisley?

Did you just quote me where I typed out Catholic and Irish, and then go on to some pedantry about Ian the free Presbyterian Paisley

janfebmar

Odhinn wrote: »

Why did willie share a plaftfrom with an associate of white power movements and the KKK?
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/Sunday_Tribune/arts2004/apr25_IMC_Pratt_FAIR__SMcKay.php

Did not open your link, what is a white power movement, did it kill as many as the paramilitaries in N.I.?

If the worst he ever done in his life was to share a platfrom, in order to highlight the ethnic cleansing (as he saw it) by Republicans, then he probably saw that as free speech.

janfebmar

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Did you just quote me where I typed out Catholic and Irish,

You were caught out, as I pointed out even Ian Paisley considered himself Irish, so how could Willie Frazer have hated the Irish?

janfebmar

Odhinn wrote: »

..........but he did nothing for the families of the two young protestants killed in his UVF bar. They had to go to SF.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Andrew_Robb_and_David_McIlwaine

They were, according to the link, not killed in his bar, and it was not his uvf bar, and the families did not have to go to SF, the murderers were caught and prosecuted and jailed by the forces of the state.