M50 Congestion

cdaly_

The Nal wrote: »

Not very appealing this morning, getting off a bus and standing in the rain waiting for the next one. It rains a lot here.

It actually doesn't rain a lot here. .
While there is an average of 15 rain days in Dublin per month, most of these are only a couple of hours and, even then, the rain is often sporadic so most of the minutes are actually dry. In my experience commuting by bike in dublin, I wear rain gear less than once per week so maybe 5-8% of my commutes are in rain.*

Also, bus shelters...



*Peers out window at current downpour*

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

You wont remove cars unless there's a viable alternative in place.
Therin lies the conundrum.
Of course we wouldn't have this problem with an underground system.......... But we just don't have the money for that.

Induced demand has an opposite effect. If you make PT better people will switch. Bus lane cameras, removing on street parking etc

cdaly_

Nijmegen wrote: »

Well, we're not Communist China so I wouldn't propose forcing people to work from home at gunpoint. I'd say you'd be talking about incentivisation rather than forcing it for working from home.

I wouldn't like working from home but if there was an office building in my village with ~15 workstations connected to the net, 15 people, working for different companies could avoid a commute. You get the office environment to avoid at-home distractions. You get company of workmates and most of the benefits of being in the workplace. Add in a VC meeting room and you're set.

Now replicate that around all of commuterland (what village doesn't have some kind of underused office/commercial space?) and you go a long way towards removing traffic and rebuilding life in deserted dormitory towns.

The Nal

donvito99 wrote: »

There are these things called 'buildings', there are even smaller type buildings called 'shelters'. Both have rooves and prevent the wind and rain getting at you.

And do they cover you walking from the house to the bus stop? And from bus stop to bus stop.

As an example, was offered an interview for a place in Eastpoint business park before. For me to get there via public transport would take me 2 hours every morning, including 2 buses with 10 minutes walking in between each bus. Its 5 miles from my house.

Thats about a 20 minute trip on an underground in any progressive city.

Yet there resistance to this. Baffling.

Millionaire only not

Oh the smelly farmers are in town today with there tractors blocking ordinary decent folk from doing real work!

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

You wont remove cars unless there's a viable alternative in place.
Therin lies the conundrum.

Just because the current government won't remove cars doesn't mean they can't.

Think about it, the simplest way to state the cycle we're trapped in is:

1. Before you remove cars, car drivers need better transport options.
2. Before you can add better transport options, you need to remove cars from the roads.

Now, some will say that Metro or Luas are the solutions, but any beyond those already proposed are 10-plus-years solutions, at the very best. We need solutions that will start working within months, not decades.

So, if you come back to those 2 steps above, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to make transport better without removing cars. But it's completely possible to remove cars before transport is better, in order to make it better.

That's literally the only short-to-medium term way out of that destructive cycle.

What needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Reintroduce levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule.
8. Immediate and unencumbered funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the country.

donvito99

The Nal wrote: »

And do they cover you walking from the house to the bus stop? And from bus stop to bus stop.

As an example, was offered an interview for a place in Eastpoint business park before. For me to get there via public transport would take me 2 hours every morning, including 2 buses with 10 minutes walking in between each bus. Its 5 miles from my house.

Thats about a 20 minute trip on an underground in any progressive city.

Yet there resistance to this. Baffling.

Ha, there is no resistance to quality public transport here. How many hundreds in Eastpoint use that Dart every day and get to Clontarf station by Bus?

A good public transport system does not mean building underground railways from everyone's home to everyone's workplace, it provides reliable, convenient interchange such that everyone can reasonably go to most places using metros, buses, heavy rail, trams, even the Dublin Bikes.

Eastpoint is famously isolated from the city as is East Wall when it comes to public transport, yet its max 5 minutes by bicycle from Clontarf and max 15 mins from Connolly...

Captcha

whippet wrote: »

I did the whole south bound M50 run for over 15 year every day .. and saw the worst of it from the upgrade, celtic tiger, recession and now the return to the congestion.

Our offices are after J10 and about 18 months ago it became so restrictive for most of our staff .. people arriving in to the office 2 hours before work started so they wouldn’t have to sit in traffic etc. Eventually it dawned on us that we can’t complain about the traffic when we are all part of it.

So we made a decision that no body needs to come to the offic unless they want to .. everyone has the tool and tech to work from anywhere there is internet.

Aside from taking the guts of 20 cars a day off the road everyone is much happier and productivity has increased dramatically - couple this with more family time and saving money on commuting we find staff retention is much easier.

When we do need to visit customers in the city we can do this off peak and tend to bundle all out weekly meetings in to one day

Another side effect is that we are all spending more money in our local communities.

If the government can somehow bring in incentives for companies to introduce remote working it will take traffic off the roads, free up space for public transport and give an injection to small local economies.

Exactly

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Induced demand has an opposite effect. If you make PT better people will switch. Bus lane cameras, removing on street parking etc

Yes. If. The only way you will make PT better is by removing cars, or building qbc's that take people's parking spaces, gardens, and trees a la bus connects (not disagreeing with it by any means) or we go underground.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

Just because the current government won't remove cars doesn't mean they can't.

Think about it, the simplest way to state the cycle we're trapped in is:

1. Before you remove cars, car drivers need better transport options.
2. Before you can add better transport options, you need to remove cars from the roads.

Now, some will say that Metro or Luas are the solutions, but any beyond those already proposed are 10-plus-years solutions, at the very best. We need solutions that will start working within months, not decades.

So, if you come back to those 2 steps above, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to make transport better without removing cars. But it's completely possible to remove cars before transport is better, in order to make it better.

That's literally the only short-to-medium term way out of that destructive cycle.

What needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Reintroduce levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule.
8. Immediate and unencumbered funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the country.

Agree with 1-5,
However solution 6 is part of bus connects
Solutions 7 and 8 are not going to be delivered any quicker. You said that yourself.
Solution 9: you can see the amount of uproar the college green plaza caused and the plans are still up in the air.
10: completley agree with you, however our minister for transport has no intention of agreeing to anpr cameras as he recently alluded to.
In short, unless people are forced out of their cars on a Friday evening and proper PT is introduced Monday morning things will just get worse for the foreseeable future until the saviour sof our transport systems, the metro and bus connects are built - if they're ever built.

Gael23

It’s becoming intolerable now. In the evening it takes an hour to get from the quays to the red cow

Dravokivich

Nijmegen wrote: »

I travel the M50 from the Northside to deep in the Southside, J6 to J13 or J14 and in, majority on the M50. I’d agree with variable tolls and, indeed, would pay more overall for my journey if it would reduce traffic by incentivising people to skip the m50. As it is I know folks who try escape the Northside tax and just go round from Blanch to Lucan. It actually is a little bit nonsensical after the infrastructure the toll was for was built to only have a toll affecting one junction pair.

Has anyone with a similar north to south commute noticed that of late Google Maps etc is recommending not only the port tunnel, but a run straight through town as being usually faster than the M50. That about sums it up for me nowadays.

I used to go from red cow to ballymun via the m50 in the mornings to head to Fairview, then out to leixlip through town, becuase that was quicker.

I dont have to do that overly long loop anymore, but the most affective way for me to get to leixlip in the mornings is from redcow to liffey valley on the m50.

Any charges for the "ratrun" will just push me and others like me to congested residential areas. Which are actually problematic for rat runs and shouldn't be used as such.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes. If. The only way you will make PT better is by removing cars, or building qbc's that take people's parking spaces, gardens, and trees a la bus connects (not disagreeing with it by any means) or we go underground.

You do realise this post is directly contradicted by this post ?

tom1ie wrote: »

Agree with 1-5,
However solution 6 is part of bus connects
Solutions 7 and 8 are not going to be delivered any quicker. You said that yourself.
Solution 9: you can see the amount of uproar the college green plaza caused and the plans are still up in the air.
10: completley agree with you, however our minister for transport has no intention of agreeing to anpr cameras as he recently alluded to.
In short, unless people are forced out of their cars on a Friday evening and proper PT is introduced Monday morning things will just get worse for the foreseeable future until the saviour sof our transport systems, the metro and bus connects are built - if they're ever built.

treade1

cdaly_ wrote: »

It actually doesn't rain a lot here. .
While there is an average of 15 rain days in Dublin per month, most of these are only a couple of hours and, even then, the rain is often sporadic so most of the minutes are actually dry. In my experience commuting by bike in dublin, I wear rain gear less than once per week so maybe 5-8% of my commutes are in rain.*

Also, bus shelters...



*Peers out window at current downpour*

Not this month!

LeinsterDub

Dravokivich wrote: »

Any charges for the "ratrun" will just push me and others like me to congested residential areas. Which are actually problematic for rat runs and shouldn't be used as such.

Easily solved with quiteways

Idbatterim

Gael23 wrote: »

It’s becoming intolerable now. In the evening it takes an hour to get from the quays to the red cow

the luas serves this journey though? I dont doubt its a total farce!

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

Agree with 1-5,
However solution 6 is part of bus connects

It's not really - I'm talking about improvements within the city centre, BusConnects is more concerned with cycling improvements on bus corridors out of the centre.

It's also an important enough solution to require its own separate project at this point. We need more alternative modes to cars and buses, and e-scooters are a fantastic additional option that could thrive in a city with the right infrastructure. Hell, I even used them in San Francisco (a city that decidedly does NOT have anywhere near the right infrastructure) and they were a superbly liberating way of getting around the city.

Solutions 7 and 8 are not going to be delivered any quicker. You said that yourself.

That's not quite what I said - I said that any newly defined projects are going to require 10+ years of development. BusConnects and Metrolink are very well defined, well-progressed, and with a lot more solid political commitment and funding, their timelines could be accelerated, perhaps by even a year or two.

I will note that I know this won't happen under Fine Gael, because it's easier for them to siphon money off to private property developers under the ineffectual guise of "solving the housing crisis".

Solution 9: you can see the amount of uproar the college green plaza caused and the plans are still up in the air.
10: completley agree with you, however our minister for transport has no intention of agreeing to anpr cameras as he recently alluded to.
In short, unless people are forced out of their cars on a Friday evening and proper PT is introduced Monday morning things will just get worse for the foreseeable future until the saviour sof our transport systems, the metro and bus connects are built - if they're ever built.

As I said, everything I mentioned could be done, and would help, but whether it will or not is a matter of political guts. Fine Gael don't have the will nor the guts, Fianna Fail I can't see being any better. The best we can hope for is a progressive coalition partner next time round who very much wants to demand a public transport/green focused agenda in return for partnership. They'll probably be sunk by the simple fact that none of this is possible without silly, ineffectual tax decreases, but I think we need a sacrificial lamb who is willing to kill their career to build a better transport system, at this point.

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

the bus serves this journey though? I dont doubt its a total farce!

So does the Luas! And there's a Park and Ride!

crossman47

All of this discussion is ignoring the basic issue causing the problem that we can't do anything about now. We have allowed Dublin to spread out in all directions but any attempt to build up is resisted. Equally all infill developments are resisted by those already living handy to public transport. The result is good public transport becomes expensive because the density is not there.

I know a city needs recreational space but there will still be plenty in St. Annes Park, for example, if the current housing plan goes ahead. The Bus Connects plan is being resisted by those living along the route because they want to hold on to their gardens which are mainly used to park their cars. We are hopeless urban planners because everyone wants their own house and garden.

Rant over.

Idbatterim

MJohnston wrote: »

So does the Luas! And there's a Park and Ride!

sorry yes I meant to say luas and updated my post. They build an entirely car dependent city and then put in roads, fit for a village! Its laughable!

Would it make sense to charge say E1 to go over the canals by car? it might stop a lot of lazy trips... The eastpoint toll should be scrapped, it facilitates more cars going through town, so does the M50 westlink toll... You'd wonder about multipoint tolling, at least at peak times on M50, ringfence the money for dublin public transport solutions only...

First Up

Some posters here need to understand what an orbital motorway is - and does.

Maybe some if us could avoid using the M50 for journeys of one or two exits but the whole point of an orbital motorway is to take traffic off suburban roads.

Rattle on about public transport alternatives all you want but in the short term, could we concentrate on more efficient (and accident free) use of what we have?

crossman47

Idbatterim wrote: »

sorry yes I meant to say luas and updated my post. They build an entirely car dependent city and then put in roads, fit for a village! Its laughable!

Im not sure what you mean but many of the roads were there well before cars!

Idbatterim

crossman47 wrote: »

Im not sure what you mean but many of the roads were there well before cars!

yeah I mean in a lot of places close to M50, the councils actually reduced the amount of lanes etc! The tailbacks to get onto M50 are comedy! They spent money to actually make the situation worse. I keep hearing about some roundabout in knocklyon, being reduced from two lanes down to one and the chaos it is causing...

They love traffic lights here!

MJohnston

First Up wrote: »

Some posters here need to understand what an orbital motorway is - and does.

Maybe some if us could avoid using the M50 for journeys of one or two exits but the whole point of an orbital motorway is to take traffic off suburban roads.

Rattle on about public transport alternatives all you want but in the short term, could we concentrate on more efficient (and accident free) use of what we have?

I think it's mad to suggest that people using the M50 are not also using suburban roads. All the M50 is, is a giant distributer TO those suburban roads. This is all most orbital motorways are, in fact.

First Up

MJohnston wrote:

I think it's mad to suggest that people using the M50 are not also using suburban roads. All the M50 is, is a giant distributer TO those suburban roads. This is all most orbital motorways are, in fact.

And a distributor to other motorways. Of course some M50 users are also using suburban roads but taking more cars off the M50 and putting them onto suburban roads is just moving the congestion from a road with more capacity onto roads with less.

Nermal

crossman47 wrote: »

All of this discussion is ignoring the basic issue causing the problem that we can't do anything about now. We have allowed Dublin to spread out in all directions but any attempt to build up is resisted. Equally all infill developments are resisted by those already living handy to public transport. The result is good public transport becomes expensive because the density is not there.

Well, we can do something about that. Change the law, so that important infrastructure and housing cannot be objected to.

Dravokivich

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Easily solved with quiteways

I tried looking that up, but anything I found seems to reference cycle paths?

donvito99

Dravokivich wrote: »

I tried looking that up, but anything I found seems to reference cycle paths?

Not actual cycle paths but cul de sacs that are not permeable by cars.

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

Some posters here need to understand what an orbital motorway is - and does.

Maybe some if us could avoid using the M50 for journeys of one or two exits but the whole point of an orbital motorway is to take traffic off suburban roads.

Rattle on about public transport alternatives all you want but in the short term, could we concentrate on more efficient (and accident free) use of what we have?

we are at the stage now where we need a new motorway, not in 10 years time, but now!
It needs to link M7 from Naas, through M4 @ Maynooth, M3 @ Dunboyne, M2 @ Ashbourne & M1 @ Balbriggan.

As you Orbital routes should be taking traffic off suburban roads. The M50 doesn't do that for 2 reasons.
1 Congestion, way to busy so people have to find alternative routes.
2 I recall reading somewhere that orbital routes around the world are not built as toll roads and it is possible that the M50 is the only one in the world to have a toll on it (certainly one of very few). People avoid the M50 when they can resulting more traffic going through suburban areas.

Where I live close to the toll, it takes me a bit longer to come off and avoid paying and to be honest for years I never bothered, but in recent years the tolls started to add up a lot so now at least half the time I try and avoid it even when it is free flowing at weekends or during off peak hours. What I've seen is that loads of others are doing the same. My dad nearly always drives across the city to avoid it as does a lot of traffic heading for the airport (especially taxis).

Dravokivich

donvito99 wrote: »

Not actual cycle paths but cul de sacs that are not permeable by cars.

I wonder why that'd be suggested as an option then.