M50 Congestion

First Up

I had to go from Dalkey to just off the N81 towards Blessington yesterday at about 5pm. The obvious (only?) route was via Cherrywood to the M50 and off at Firhouse. I expected it to be busy but nothing could prepare me for the experience.

No problems getting to the M50 but as I approached the Carrickmines junction the signs were flashing about delays and I could already see the tailback ahead. It then took well over an hour to cover the few miles to Firhouse. There was no sign of any accidents and the traffic programme on Dublin City FM just casually mentioned it was slow but it sounded like they considered this normal.

Is this normal? The motorway on that section is at least 2 and mostly 3 lanes and the only "complications" are a couple of exit and entry points. Is that all it takes to reduce traffic to 5k an hour in first gear? (It seemed to be equally bad further on.)

Do regular users have to put up with this every day?

L1011

This is lighter than normal traffic conditions. No orbital public transport and no capacity on most other modes mean there are very limited options to mode shift for regular users

The Satanist

You was lucky. Try doing it on a wet Tuesday evening in February!

First Up

So its just volume?

amcalester

First Up wrote: »

So its just volume?

And piss poor driving.

AulWan

I would say its normal at that time.

markpb

The traffic volume on the middle section of the M50 has grown from 132k to 149k in the last four years. An extra 17,000 vehicles per day. There are about 2,000 incidents per year, over 800 of them classified as high to urgent priority. The 1,200 may have been lower impact but they still have the ability to cause long tailbacks.

99nsr125

There was an accident yesterday

First Up wrote: »

I had to go from Dalkey to just off the N81 towards Blessington yesterday at about 5pm. The obvious (only?) route was via Cherrywood to the M50 and off at Firhouse. I expected it to be busy but nothing could prepare me for the experience.

No problems getting to the M50 but as I approached the Carrickmines junction the signs were flashing about delays and I could already see the tailback ahead. It then took well over an hour to cover the few miles to Firhouse. There was no sign of any accidents and the traffic programme on Dublin City FM just casually mentioned it was slow but it sounded like they considered this normal.

Is this normal? The motorway on that section is at least 2 and mostly 3 lanes and the only "complications" are a couple of exit and entry points. Is that all it takes to reduce traffic to 5k an hour in first gear? (It seemed to be equally bad further on.)

Do regular users have to put up with this every day?

is_that_so

amcalester wrote: »

And piss poor driving.

This really. Motorists rev up as fast as they can, one of them brakes, traffic slows right back, crosses into other lanes. Meanwhile the volume is building all the time behind and there you have the M50 car park. Dublin City FM will keep you updated at peak hours and there's music too.

Jimmy McGill

is_that_so wrote: »

This really. Motorists rev up as fast as they can, one of them brakes, traffic slows right back, crosses into other lanes. Meanwhile the volume is building all the time behind and there you have the M50 car park. Dublin City FM will keep you updated at peak hours and there's music too.

No other excuse really for it other than people on the m50 drive like idiots, everyone is in a rush to get somewhere. People constantly tail gate and keep breaking at the last second, resulting in a domino effect of everyone else breaking, until the whole motorway comes to a stand still.

AulWan

There was an accident today as well. At approx 2pm it took me about 45 minutes to get from Junction 11 (Templeogue) to Junction 7 (Liffey Valley) - a journey which normally takes about 8/10 minutes max.

First Up

99nsr125 wrote:

There was an accident yesterday

The Dublin City FM traffic programme didn't mention it but I know there are accidents most days - largely due to the piss poor driving mentioned earlier.

First Up

is_that_so wrote:

will keep you updated at peak hours and there's music too.

I was listening to it.

Chris_5339762

The problem is actually the Red Cow merge from the N7. The volume of traffic that joins there on a short merge just gums the M50 northbound all the way from there past Firhouse most evenings.

Guy:Incognito

amcalester wrote: »

And piss poor driving.

Yep. Even when theres less traffic what's happens is all the people coming down the slip to join do so at a slow speed to the traffic on the motorway and also drove about 1 car length apart. Meanwhile what bit if traffic is in lane 1 are the same, barely a gap between them. Then both lines of traffic start braking getting slower and slower and trying to move in to lanes of traffic with no gaps.

Both lanes also want to merge at the very start of the slip. Nevermind that theres anything up to a couple of kilometers of lane to the next junction where they can join at any stage.

Add to this the idiors that are in lane 3 till they are well past the start of the slip then brake, move to lane 2, brake move to lane 1 , brake move to the slip lane, all the time shoving in to gaps too small because everyone is driving too close which means all 3 lanes are now braking.

Idiots, idiots everywhere.

Op, the back road are the alternative option. Brings you down in to firhouse. I went that way myself at half 4 yesterday.

Sleeper12

AulWan wrote:

There was an accident today as well. At approx 2pm it took me about 45 minutes to get from Junction 11 (Templeogue) to Junction 7 (Liffey Valley) - a journey which normally takes about 8/10 minutes max.

There were two crashes this morning. One was northbound around Ballymun with traffic backed up to the red cow. At the same time there was a crash southbound between the Blanchardstown and lucan exit. Traffic was backed up to Ballymun.

Guy:Incognito

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The problem is actually the Red Cow merge from the N7. The volume of traffic that joins there on a short merge just gums the M50 northbound all the way from there past Firhouse most evenings.

This is just bad driving again. The slip off the m50 only merges on to the naas road after the slip down from the luas, but the whole thing stops right at the end of the hatch markings because they all insist on merging in to the mainline right there instead of using the full length of the slip. The traffic heading down the naas road shouldnt be backed up at all and only is because of peoples inability to merge or leave a road without braking. It builds up at the junctions for no other reason.

yosser hughes

People sitting in the middle lane leads to all sorts of problems. The people doing it, think they're doing absolutely nothing wrong.

First Up

yosser hughes wrote:

People sitting in the middle lane leads to all sorts of problems. The people doing it, think they're doing absolutely nothing wrong.

Agree - its infuriating but in the jam yesterday all 3 lanes were bumper to bumper and crawling.

arccosh

First Up wrote: »

The obvious (only?)

Up over Johnny Foxes way, or up by Lamb Doyles and by Marley Park, cut across into Firhouse

First Up

arccosh wrote:

Up over Johnny Foxes way, or up by Lamb Doyles and by Marley Park, cut across into Firhouse

Yeah I know the back roads but from Cherrywood its very tempting to hope the M50 works!
Thankfully its not a route I need to take often.

traco

First Up wrote: »

Do regular users have to put up with this every day?

Pretty much - its getting worse and worse. There's a little reprieve at the moment with summer holidays but I'm dreading how bad it will be in September as its always seems to jump a notch again.


As for yesterday - sun shine and lots of accidents. That morning one on the Blanch Lucan aux lane, seemed like a merge issue but the car was on its roof, how did the manage that??


Seems like people get more impatient in the sun and speeds are up. Never a cop to be seen at peak times on it. It needs adaptive speed and average speed cameras between all exits. A steady 60kph at peak as opposed to 120-10-120-0-120 would have less accidents and flow better.

A guaranteed extra 10/15mins would be better than the current pick a random time situation.

Dravokivich

First Up wrote: »

So its just volume?

There was 4 accidents on it yesterday. Volume isn't really the issue. Most folks adjust their progress handily enough when it fills up. The issue is when you've got people darting between lanes. That can result in more people slowing suddenly and it affects the overall flow of traffic

Tchaikovsky

Rubberneckers are also a big problem. Driving southbound at 3pm around J7 on Wednesday, the traffic slowed to a crawl in front of me- turns out there was a crash on the northbound side with a number of fire engines and ambulances.
That and lack of indicating between lane changes.

magicbastarder

here's an idea of the carrying capacity of the M50. let's say it was just carrying private cars with an average occupancy of 1.2 (probably a fair guess); and that the drivers drive according to the 3 second rule (i accept this is almost certainly not the case).
leaving the exit lane to one side, if you stood on the side of the M50, one car would pass you per second. 1.2 people per second, or 4,300 per hour.

the luas green line runs trams approx every 3 minutes at rush hour, but let's say 3 every ten minutes; 18 per hour. at a capacity of 358 per tram, that's 6,400 people per hour.

even if you add the exit lane, that still puts the luas ahead of the M50; and if you drop the minimum safe distance from 3s to 2, and keep within the three lanes, they're pretty much directly comparable.

in short, the M50 (well, the private car) is a stupidly inefficient way of moving people around.

First Up

magicbastarder wrote:

in short, the M50 (well, the private car) is a stupidly inefficient way of moving people around.

Depends on where you are going.

traco

magicbastarder wrote: »

in short, the M50 (well, the private car) is a stupidly inefficient way of moving people around.

Yep - sadly the public transport alternative for me is 2+ hours each way and that is with the optimum connections. Miss that one and its 3+


If there was a viable alternative I'd use it as I am sure would many others. I doubt many are on the M50 for joy of it

Dravokivich

magicbastarder wrote: »

here's an idea of the carrying capacity of the M50. let's say it was just carrying private cars with an average occupancy of 1.2 (probably a fair guess); and that the drivers drive according to the 3 second rule (i accept this is almost certainly not the case).
leaving the exit lane to one side, if you stood on the side of the M50, one car would pass you per second. 1.2 people per second, or 4,300 per hour.

the luas green line runs trams approx every 3 minutes at rush hour, but let's say 3 every ten minutes; 18 per hour. at a capacity of 358 per tram, that's 6,400 people per hour.

even if you add the exit lane, that still puts the luas ahead of the M50; and if you drop the minimum safe distance from 3s to 2, and keep within the three lanes, they're pretty much directly comparable.

in short, the M50 (well, the private car) is a stupidly inefficient way of moving people around.

I can get my kid to creche and me to work in 35 minutes, or I can do it in 3 hours. I spent a month doing the 3 hours in and 3 hours out. So I'm not plucking something from the air there. Tell me which is inefficient?

It's not fair to look at 1 snapshot in isolation to the entire commute someone may be doing, and then pointing out the snapshot is a problem to be addressed.

The issue with commuting around Dublin, is the lack of crossing points over Liffey Valley. That needs to be considered when reviewing any transport plan. Bus Connects is still based on the same stupid idea we have it running now. ie: people only want to get into and out of the city.

rabbidpeach

traco wrote: »

Yep - sadly the public transport alternative for me is 2+ hours each way and that is with the optimum connections. Miss that one and its 3+


If there was a viable alternative I'd use it as I am sure would many others. I doubt many are on the M50 for joy of it

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can get my kid to creche and me to work in 35 minutes, or I can do it in 3 hours. I spent a month doing the 3 hours in and 3 hours out. So I'm not plucking something from the air there. Tell me which is inefficient?

It's not fair to look at 1 snapshot in isolation to the entire commute someone may be doing, and then pointing out the snapshot is a problem to be addressed.

The issue with commuting around Dublin, is the lack of crossing points over Liffey Valley. That needs to be considered when reviewing any transport plan. Bus Connects is still based on the same stupid idea we have it running now. ie: people only want to get into and out of the city.

Me three.

I live in Drogheda and work in north Dublin. Matthews and the 100X don't get me where I need to go so I have to get the 101. When the schools are in, I have to leave the house at 6:40 to get a bus at 7am. It arrives at about 8:30 when I then have about a 15-20 minute walk to the office. So it's a 2 hour commute. I do it regularly and it's exhausting. Same again in the evening, although I don't know when the bus will arrive. So sometimes it could be after 7:30 by the time I'm home. Bed time at 11pm and back up at 6am the next day.

Alternatively, it can be driven in around 40-45 minutes down the M1. I'm getting driving lessons so I can have my life back!

Pete_Cavan

Just because the car is the best mode for certain individuals given their particular circumstances, that doesn't change the fact that public transport is a far more efficient way of moving large number of people. Every time this fact is stated on here, we have people falling over themselves to tell us why they need their car despite it having no relevance to anything. We need more public transport, even if it is not usable for some people they will still benefit from it through less other drivers.

OldMrBrennan83

It's all mostly bad driving caused by people lane hopping to get one car ahead, or forcing in last minute for exits because they wouldn't be in the correct lane in time. The N7 inbound towards the M50 is another that has serious delays every day for this reason only, it's not volume.

First Up

Pete_Cavan wrote:

Just because the car is the best mode for certain individuals given their particular circumstances, that doesn't change the fact that public transport is a far more efficient way of moving large number of people. Every time this fact is stated on here, we have people falling over themselves to tell us why they need their car despite it having no relevance to anything. We need more public transport, even if it is not usable for some people they will still benefit from it through less other drivers.

That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.

Pete_Cavan

First Up wrote: »

That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.

I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.

My point is that as soon as public transport is mentioned, we have people immediately justifying their car journey, even when their need for the journey by car was not questioned and it not being threatened by promoting public transport. A small number of people say they genuinely need their car, lots more row in behind despite not absolutely needing to commute by car, the argument becomes car v pt (even if car space is not being effected by said pt proposal) and this is used to ignore public transport investment. The defensive nature of your post highlights my point perfectly.

OldMrBrennan83

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.

My point is that as soon as public transport is mentioned, we have people immediately justifying their car journey, even when their need for the journey by car was not questioned and it not being threatened by promoting public transport. A small number of people say they genuinely need their car, lots more row in behind despite not absolutely needing to commute by car, the argument becomes car v pt (even if car space is not being effected by said pt proposal) and this is used to ignore public transport investment. The defensive nature of your post highlights my point perfectly.

Maybe we're all just sick of being beaten with public transport on every single thread. Whether it's an answer or not (not the auto cure to all that you all think it is), the bores do more to put people off it than anything.

Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.

magicbastarder

Dravokivich wrote: »

I can get my kid to creche and me to work in 35 minutes, or I can do it in 3 hours. I spent a month doing the 3 hours in and 3 hours out. So I'm not plucking something from the air there. Tell me which is inefficient?

It's not fair to look at 1 snapshot in isolation to the entire commute someone may be doing, and then pointing out the snapshot is a problem to be addressed.

i don't think your example contradicts mine.
the private car is highly flexible but inefficient.
the luas is highly efficient but inflexible.

sharper

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.

That's the problem with reality, no matter which way you turn there it is.

The M50 isn't clogged with trees or grass or something that can just be cleared out. It's clogged with cars because there are too many people using cars.

The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem. Further expanding the M50 would be a massive effort and just pushed the problem further out so by the time that work would be done we'd be in the same place we are today.

First Up

Pete_Cavan wrote:

I did not mention anything about an alternative route or taking public transport instead. I fully accept that some journeys and commutes are, and will always be, better done by car. That doesn't change the fact that public transport is more efficient at moving people or that we need to focus investment on pt.

Good point; wrong thread.

is_that_so

sharper wrote: »

That's the problem with reality, no matter which way you turn there it is.

The M50 isn't clogged with trees or grass or something that can just be cleared out. It's clogged with cars because there are too many people using cars.

The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem. Further expanding the M50 would be a massive effort and just pushed the problem further out so by the time that work would be done we'd be in the same place we are today.

So how can one get fewer people to use cars via the M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?

Pete_Cavan

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Maybe we're all just sick of being beaten with public transport on every single thread. Whether it's an answer or not (not the auto cure to all that you all think it is), the bores do more to put people off it than anything.

Single occupancy cars, orbital this and that, etc - blah blah ****ing blah on every. bloody. thread.

How is anyone beating you? A comparison was made (with figures) between the people carrying capacity of Luas v M50 and commuters piled in to day why their individual circumstances require them to travel by car. Again, nobody questions that, regardless of the availability of pt, commutes by car will still be required, that is the case in many cities and here would be no different. I'd say its the drivers doing the beating with their retaliate first attitude (even to things which won't limit their ability to drive but would benefit them if it reduces congestion on roads).

sharper

is_that_so wrote: »

So how can one get fewer people to use cars via te M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?

Create better alternatives. Bus Connects planned to greatly increase orbital connections but a lot of people with a large front garden and two cars parked in it suddenly became very worried about trees. I'm not even sure how the Metro went wrong, it seems to be possible to derail infrastructure projects just by throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks.

It's obvious that the status quo isn't ok, or at least it's obvious to those that commute anywhere near the M50 on a daily basis. Unfortunately the average journalist and politician does not so the national infrastructure conversation is dominated by the impact on leafy suburbs.

First Up

sharper wrote:

The only way the M50 will become less clogged is if less people use cars.

Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there is no other solution to this problem.

That isn't a solution; its a wish. How do you propose to make it happen?

Meanwhile the M50 could be a bit less clogged if people used it properly.

sharper

First Up wrote: »

That isn't a solution; its a wish. How do you propose to make it happen?

Meanwhile the M50 could be a bit less clogged if people used it properly.

The context here is public transport so that's the solution, no wishing involved. This problem has been solved elsewhere.

The M50 is well beyond its design capacity. Using it properly might help a bit but the fundamental problem is the number of people using it.

OldMrBrennan83

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How is anyone beating you? A comparison was made (with figures) between the people carrying capacity of Luas v M50 and commuters piled in to day why their individual circumstances require them to travel by car. Again, nobody questions that, regardless of the availability of pt, commutes by car will still be required, that is the case in many cities and here would be no different. I'd say its the drivers doing the beating with their retaliate first attitude (even to things which won't limit their ability to drive but would benefit them if it reduces congestion on roads).

This wasn't a PT thread.

OldMrBrennan83

sharper wrote: »

The context here is public transport so that's the solution, no wishing involved. This problem has been solved elsewhere.

The M50 is well beyond its design capacity. Using it properly might help a bit but the fundamental problem is the number of people using it.

People misusing it is a far bigger problem than it's given credit for, but that doesn't help push the PT agenda.

InTheShadows

amcalester wrote: »

And piss poor driving.

I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.

InTheShadows

First Up wrote: »

That only applies if public transport is available for the route in question, or is available within a realistic timeframe.

I started this thread describing a journey from Dalkey to near Blessington at about 5pm on a working day.

You are welcome to tell me the alternative route and mode of transport I could/should have used.

Buy a motorbike/scooter

is_that_so

InTheShadows wrote: »

I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.

In general we are not bad at all but something primal happens on the M50 and very heavy traffic does bring out the worst in people.

InTheShadows

is_that_so wrote: »

In general we are not bad at all but something primal happens on the M50 and very heavy traffic does bring out the worst in people.

It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.

is_that_so

InTheShadows wrote: »

It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.

If there is an actual option. More often than not there isn't. Capacity is not the only issue and many motorists just live in their own bubble and don't care how their behaviour might affect others nor how that influence overall traffic flow.

Dravokivich

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think your example contradicts mine.
the private car is highly flexible but inefficient.
the luas is highly efficient but inflexible.

You are looking at the wrong thing when trying to identify an efficient commute. It should not be measured on load. Time is the parameter that leads to waste.

InTheShadows

is_that_so wrote: »

If there is an actual option. More often than not there isn't. Capacity is not the only issue and many motorists just live in their own bubble and don't care how their behaviour might affect others nor how that influence overall traffic flow.

I agree some motorists are like that the same as anywhere else.