M50 Congestion

magicbastarder

Banzai600 wrote: »

Are you kidding, im biking many years, RSA & motorists hate motorbikes & scooters, not a hope you'd get ppl onto a scooter or bike. Its an alternative that wouldnt be considered by any politician / government, but would make a big difference.

my commute - when i go into the office, which is usually two or three days a week - takes me from beside DCU to beside leopardstown racecourse. it's a fairly consistent 50 minutes on a bicycle, using my 20km route; i don't know how long that would take in a car, as i've never tried.
we all know why more people don't cycle; some are minor infastructural issues (e.g. facilities for cyclists in their workplace), and some are major; road design frequently puts cyclists at risk.

ELM327

So much nonsense and car hate. Is this the cycling or bus forum?

magicbastarder wrote: »

for getting to work? i live in dublin 9 and my office is in leopardstown. you couldn't pay me to drive there; i've been living here seven years and not once in that seven years have i driven.
granted, i have lots of bus options at the house end and a luas stop a short walk from the office at the other end - and i'm lucky with that - but this is what we should be aiming for.

I guess that's where we differ.

If it cost me more and took longer, I would still take the car.

MJohnston wrote: »

And I drive an i3 (not into the city, because I'm not an asshole, at least in that regard), but I keep myself informed enough to know that EVs still create substantial and dangerous localised air pollution:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/microplastics-lung-development-air-pollution-car-tyres-dispatches-a8951201.html

Everyone pays for the road, car owner or driver or not. There is no special status that allows car commuters to claim they deserve access to roads. Especially in Dublin city, where they are vastly outnumbered by tax-paying individuals who use less-selfish commuting methods.

The best thing about car commuters is they are their own worst enemy - they're the ones inhaling the most air pollution (even if you're driving an EV!) - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study

So, the likelihood of you being long dead sooner rather than later, is pretty high.

That's the great thing about bio weapon defense mode, I can exclude polluted air.


Not withstanding the fact that anyone commuting on the bus/cycling/walking in the same area inhales the same polluted air anyway.


I don't like this implied - false - correlation between driving a car and being an asshole. You do realise that this forum is a subforum of the motoring forum?

MJohnston wrote: »

Congestion charges don't really solve much because the rich drivers who tend to clog up the roads are willing to pay them.

The most effective thing to do would be to cut off access to parking. As I mentioned earlier, remove all on-street parking metres (leaving only resident's permits as an option in applicable areas), re-introduce the private office parking space levies (and make them even more punitive), start making it much harder for cars to reach multi-storey car parks in the city, etc.

After that, we should start exploring more and more pedestrianisation (thankfully DCC seem to actually be interested in this), cutting off space otherwise gobbled up by private cars. Leave space for public transport however!

Once all that is done, might be worth exploring a toll on crossing the canals or something like that.

I already pay a toll twice a day.
I will pay, wait, whatever else obstacle (that will remain notional as none will get off the ground as they are too radical) you put out there, rather than take public transport.

donvito99 wrote: »

Your taxes don't even come close to paying a) for the roads or b) for maintaining the roads.

I'd say the majority of people using public transport in Dublin also pay road tax, but leave their traffic causing device at home.

No one pays road tax, it's motor tax.


The tax is levied and entitles one to drive a road legal (insured and road worthy) vehicle on the public roads

donvito99 wrote: »

Your "road" tax doesn't even come close to paying a) for the roads or b) for maintaining the roads.

I'd say the majority of people using public transport in Dublin also pay road tax, but leave their traffic causing device at home.

I never said it did?

The tax is levied and entitles one to drive a road legal (insured and road worthy) vehicle on the public roads

Seve OB wrote: »

you seem to be very anti driving.

why? if you don't want to drive, don't.

I drive because I want to, its simple, its quicker, its flexible, I can afford to, its cheaper than taxis, its reliable and I enjoy it

+1

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is an argument i really don't like. the claim that 'i have an entitlement to drive as much as i like because i pay for it' ignores the fact that motoring has a lot of externalised costs.

e.g. if you want to pay for an expensive watch - you pay your money and take your choice, and you get to enjoy your watch and that's great - and most other people would be barely aware.

but motoring has a societal cost; no amount of money spent by a motorist who drives through the city centre, will restitute the effect that has on other people (mainly non-motorists); be it clogging up the roads with horrendously inefficient vehicles, the CO2 emissions created by doing to, the danger externalised onto more exposed road users, etc. etc.

in short - i don't *care* if you've paid money to drive your car, it makes life more difficult for me, and i can't pay money to take back the effects of your choice.

Paying motor tax entitles one to drive a road legal (insured and road worthy) vehicle on the public roads


Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about your opinion, I and the thousands like me will continue to drive to work.

Banzai600 wrote: »

i have to laugh at the hate for car drivers. Get off your high horses ffs :rolleyes:



There are no alternatives for ppl who traverse across the city , who are not on a luas / dart line, or close to where they work or can avail of cycle lanes - great if you are a few kms from city, but thats it. No good if you are 5+ miles away from your job.


i know a few ppl who traverse north to south and vice versa via M50. Torture, stress etc. they average 1.5 / 2hrs from sandyford to coolock exit say and same going other way, the M50 is over capacity in the eve's and mornings. What else are they supposed to do, the city is grid locked too.

i cross the city most days by using a motorbike, / scooter. I have noticed that volume everywhere is growing at a rapid rate, even at the weekends, roads are very busy. Ive seen more road rage and multiple ppl in screaming matches at traffic lights etc, gunning for each other and weekly its worse.

Also know 3 ppl who use the bus services to commute, from north to south & north to west, it takes them 2 / 2.5 hrs to get to work, and another person who goes from D6 to drumconcdra area, its 2hrs. Why would you want to sit on a bus, 20hrs a week of your life.




re M50 accidents, some just happen genuinely, but there is a lot of aggression, tail gating , ppl on phones, ppl on tablets, bus drivers / some trucks hogging lanes etc. Not to mention the ones using hard shoulders, crossing median strips, coming off aux lane to jump back on, up an over the exits / entrances to beat queues and blazing through red lights while doing so at the top of the slips.

Slowing the average speed down will not work, irish drivers dont have the etiquette / courtesy you find in other countries and ive driven a very wide range of countries abroad on 2 and four wheels.

The m50 is past capacity to cope. Plus its the best cash cow in the country that keeps on giving, dont upset the shareholders will you....


the outer ring road should be done, bringing ppl into the city to go back out again is out of pure greed, there has to be an alternative miles out of the city to put in another road to link M4 , M7 etc, but again the m50 is bringing in the money and lots of it.


If you look at the samuel beckett bridge, you cant go left coming from point depot , as the council want you to use the eastlink instead - thats a fact.

it'll never be fixed, will only get worse.

Agreed

Idbatterim

electric cars are very interesting, I read a very interesting article the other day about a university and say there were driverless cars (they gave a group of people , a chauffeur driven car for a week) it resulted in far more trips being taken. There will be an issue with electric cars in the future, of course unless they charge per km travelled etc. Currently, you can fuel and tax your ev for as good as free. when you have the sunk cost of that, who is going to take public transport, unless it offers a time saving (a quality service where you are a few min walk to luas from your home and a few minute walk on the other end, it can save a lot of time and stress) I live a few km from town near luas and a good bus route, I generally dont drive into town, stress of it, rip off parking etc. But there are so many journeys I undertake, where any option other than driving, is laughable!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Idbatterim wrote: »

electric cars are very interesting, I read a very interesting article the other day about a university and say there were driverless cars (they gave a group of people , a chauffeur driven car for a week) it resulted in far more trips being taken. There will be an issue with electric cars in the future, of course unless they charge per km travelled etc. Currently, you can fuel and tax your ev for as good as free. when you have the sunk cost of that, who is going to take public transport, unless it offers a time saving (a quality service where you are a few min walk to luas from your home and a few minute walk on the other end, it can save a lot of time and stress) I live a few km from town near luas and a good bus route, I generally dont drive into town, stress of it, rip off parking etc. But there are so many journeys I undertake, where any option other than driving, is laughable!

What have electric vehicles got to do with congestion? A car is a car.

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

electric cars are very interesting, I read a very interesting article the other day about a university and say there were driverless cars (they gave a group of people , a chauffeur driven car for a week) it resulted in far more trips being taken. There will be an issue with electric cars in the future, of course unless they charge per km travelled etc. Currently, you can fuel and tax your ev for as good as free. when you have the sunk cost of that, who is going to take public transport, unless it offers a time saving (a quality service where you are a few min walk to luas from your home and a few minute walk on the other end, it can save a lot of time and stress) I live a few km from town near luas and a good bus route, I generally dont drive into town, stress of it, rip off parking etc. But there are so many journeys I undertake, where any option other than driving, is laughable!

For me to get to work (north meath to blanchardstown corporate park) I would have to get a bus to "An Lar" and then another from there to the business park. 2+ hours vs 35-55mins in the car.


Even if it were 25 mins in a super fast and free train direct from door to door I'd still take the car.

ELM327

Maddox Cool Motorbike wrote: »

What have electric vehicles got to do with congestion? A car is a car.

If you bothered to read his post you'd see his point.
Higher sunk cost + nearly free to run vs the cheaper to buy but more expensive to run fossil cars.


Also electric cars move the pollution from the city roads to the power plants

LeinsterDub

ELM327 wrote: »

If you bothered to read his post you'd see his point.
Higher sunk cost + nearly free to run vs the cheaper to buy but more expensive to run fossil cars.


Also electric cars move the pollution from the city roads to the power plants

If you bothered to read you'll notice they said congestion as in traffic

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

So much nonsense and car hate. Is this the cycling or bus forum?

It's the Commuting and Transport forum, NOT the car driver forum. I'm sorry we couldn't give you the kind of safe spaces you clearly need!

I guess that's where we differ.

If it cost me more and took longer, I would still take the car.

Not withstanding the fact that anyone commuting on the bus/cycling/walking in the same area inhales the same polluted air anyway.

Oh, you didn't read the link, did you?

I don't like this implied - false - correlation between driving a car and being an asshole. You do realise that this forum is a subforum of the motoring forum?

It's also a subforum of the Transport forum. Again, I thought it was only snowflakes who wanted safe spaces?

I already pay a toll twice a day.
I will pay, wait, whatever else obstacle (that will remain notional as none will get off the ground as they are too radical) you put out there, rather than take public transport.

Excellent news! We're going to fund the Metrolink out of your pocket alone!

No one pays road tax, it's motor tax.

The tax is levied and entitles one to drive a road legal (insured and road worthy) vehicle on the public roads

Agreed, in other words - motor tax isn't a tax to pay for the upkeep of the roads.

Paying motor tax entitles one to drive a road legal (insured and road worthy) vehicle on the public roads

Sure, it doesn't entitle you to drive on every public road though. Therefore, we should increase the number of public roads that you're not entitled to drive on. Sorted.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about your opinion, I and the thousands like me will continue to drive to work.

Sure, that has been obvious since your first post in this thread! That's my point, we need to say a big hearty "FU" to drivers like yourself, and make it impossible for you to continue to be selfish.

ELM327

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If you bothered to read you'll notice they said congestion as in traffic

where?

electric cars are very interesting, I read a very interesting article the other day about a university and say there were driverless cars (they gave a group of people , a chauffeur driven car for a week) it resulted in far more trips being taken. There will be an issue with electric cars in the future, of course unless they charge per km travelled etc. Currently, you can fuel and tax your ev for as good as free. when you have the sunk cost of that, who is going to take public transport, unless it offers a time saving (a quality service where you are a few min walk to luas from your home and a few minute walk on the other end, it can save a lot of time and stress) I live a few km from town near luas and a good bus route, I generally dont drive into town, stress of it, rip off parking etc. But there are so many journeys I undertake, where any option other than driving, is laughable!

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

It's the Commuting and Transport forum, NOT the car driver forum. I'm sorry we couldn't give you the kind of safe spaces you clearly need!





Oh, you didn't read the link, did you?



It's also a subforum of the Transport forum. Again, I thought it was only snowflakes who wanted safe spaces?



Excellent news! We're going to fund the Metrolink out of your pocket alone!



Agreed, in other words - motor tax isn't a tax to pay for the upkeep of the roads.



Sure, it doesn't entitle you to drive on every public road though. Therefore, we should increase the number of public roads that you're not entitled to drive on. Sorted.



Sure, that has been obvious since your first post in this thread! That's my point, we need to say a big hearty "FU" to drivers like yourself, and make it impossible for you to continue to be selfish.

So I need a safe space, yet your best retort is to insult (say a big hearty "FU" to drivers like yourself, and make it impossible for you to continue to be selfish)?

Also I dont know who this royal we is but, given the thousands of people who drive every day, I cannot imagine this royal we has much support beyond some lycra clad anti-car nuts who enjoy sniffing their own farts and that of their fellow (false) moral high ground dwellers aboard public transport while in the real world the rest of us get on about our business and ignore said nuts

Idbatterim

Maddox Cool Motorbike wrote: »

What have electric vehicles got to do with congestion? A car is a car.

at this moment in time, you can fuel them for free. Tax nearly free. That could result in far more journeys being taken. Put petrol or diesel up to E2 a litre and see how that would impact use. Ill try find the link to the study, very interesting...

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

So I need a safe space, yet your best retort is to insult (say a big hearty "FU" to drivers like yourself, and make it impossible for you to continue to be selfish)?

It's not an insult, it's an invitation!

There's a sea-change coming for car commuters in Dublin, it's inevitable. Doesn't matter how you feel about whether I'm being insulting or not, the end result will be the same — the roads will have to be made more and more inaccessible for the minority in cars, in order to serve the greater population who travel by bus, foot, bike, or scooter.

This very thread is a testament to the fact that car commuting is becoming inescapably bad, and we've already spent millions expanding roads to absolutely no long-term effect. Couple that with the obvious shift in public attitudes towards environmentalism. Add in the physical difficulties inherent with a city like Dublin. The road for cars has run out, and I think that's pretty obvious to most people.

DCC are already eager to start reducing car access to parts of the city, and it's only a matter of time before that spreads.

It's also, to stay on topic, the only way that M50 congestion will improve - the more citybound travellers that switch to sustainable modes, the more space that orbital will have for those who are genuinely making orbital journeys.

crossman47

ELM327 wrote: »

Even if it were 25 mins in a super fast and free train direct from door to door I'd still take the car.

Why? I can't see any reason why anyone would make that choice.

ELM327

crossman47 wrote: »

Why? I can't see any reason why anyone would make that choice.

Not interested in sharing transport, and would happily pay for the privilege

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

at this moment in time, you can fuel them for free. Tax nearly free. That could result in far more journeys being taken. Put petrol or diesel up to E2 a litre and see how that would impact use. Ill try find the link to the study, very interesting...

ESB just the other week started charging for charging, so it's no longer a free deal. Tax on my i3 isn't actually that much cheaper from the Mini I used to have, €170 a year now.

Plus, even if you're in an EV, you're still stuck in godawful Dublin traffic. The only benefit really is not having to use the clutch all the time!

Nijmegen

Whew, this blew up!

I guess to circle back on the point of reducing congestion, there is a reason why people in aggregate choose to drive over taking public transport. The area around my office is crammed with significantly more cars today than normal because it's very wet out and people are choosing to drive to stay dry. At a micro level it makes a lot of sense, and then you get more congestion on a rainy day and the conditions lead to more accidents.

You can moan about it all you like but that's the human behavior. And even on bone dry days, people drive. Why? Predominantly because the public transport options are just not acceptable. I've spent time in cities where I've only used public transport because it's great, and then there's Dublin. For me to get home right now from my supposedly well connected office and home (with traffic only starting to build) it would take 41 minutes in the car and 1hr 28 minutes via 2 buses and with about 18 minutes of walking according to Google Maps. Under bus connects it would still take me 2 buses but interestingly practically no walking.

Until you can make public transport more accessible, interchangeable, and pleasant - including shelters please - it will continue to be underused.

So then back to a point raised earlier, if you can't get people to engage in a modal shift can you get them to reduce their need to commute at all, or to encourage car pooling that takes cars off the road, etc. What can you do that doesn't require a multi-year capital investment and that is acceptable to voters, because just forcing people out of their cars and onto said public transport commutes that are unacceptable will lose politicians their jobs (and sorry, again, we don't live in Communist China and you have to bear in mind how people feel about your solutions.)

Seve OB

crossman47 wrote: »

Why? I can't see any reason why anyone would make that choice.

well then you are very naive

trellheim

Why? I can't see any reason why anyone would make that choice.

Me neither. People are saying here that if they had a railway with a guaranteed seat, table and power and a 2 min walk at either end and a train every 5 minutes plus a commuting time the same every day they would still use the car , you cant fix that attitude

Macy0161

trellheim wrote: »

Me neither. People are saying here that if they had a railway with a guaranteed seat, table and power and a 2 min walk at either end and a train every 5 minutes plus a commuting time the same every day they would still use the car , you cant fix that attitude

Well you can, but then you get to the sticks no Government will have the balls to introduce, such as more restrictions on private vehicle access and parking, congestion charging, more tolling, tax on parking etc.

That's why it needs to be a hands off, non-political office. It probably needs to cross party commitment to set up, and commitment to fund as well. To invest in the infrastructure/ buses/ rail without save the trees bs that bus connects and metro has had, and to to implement the sticks on private vehicle use to go with it.

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

Me neither. People are saying here that if they had a railway with a guaranteed seat, table and power and a 2 min walk at either end and a train every 5 minutes plus a commuting time the same every day they would still use the car , you cant fix that attitude

You can fix it the same way you can fix a randy tomcat that keeps knocking up the neighbourhood :pac:

LeinsterDub

crossman47 wrote: »

Why? I can't see any reason why anyone would make that choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaHr1A

...some men you just can't reach...

Idbatterim

its so ridiculous here, but the simple, relatively quick and cheap option, was a proper bus connects plan ! but of course you have the usual whingers out and spineless inept politicians with no leadership. Losing your house? pretty ****. But losing a chunk of your front garden that you highly unlikely use the last 2-3 meters of it? tough bloody luck. Unless they are losing the ability to park off street, how could anyone have any sympathy? given the benefits it would bring its totally ridiculous here. Just total paralysis...

First Up

trellheim wrote:

Me neither. People are saying here that if they had a railway with a guaranteed seat, table and power and a 2 min walk at either end and a train every 5 minutes plus a commuting time the same every day they would still use the car , you cant fix that attitude

Anyone who'se life is empty enough to choose hours in traffic when alternatives are available deserves sympathy more than censure.

I just hope he drives properly on the M50.

Seve OB

trellheim wrote: »

Me neither. People are saying here that if they had a railway with a guaranteed seat, table and power and a 2 min walk at either end and a train every 5 minutes plus a commuting time the same every day they would still use the car , you cant fix that attitude

I'm going to hazard a guess that you live a very boring life and travel back and forward to work and don't do much else other than that.

look, if I was in my early 20's with no wife, no kids, no ties, no family worries, a job at one end of the line and a home at the other, with no social life off that direct route, then I might consider being a regular commuter. but hey, I don't work in the city centre and I have a life!

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

Anyone who'se life is empty enough to choose hours in traffic when alternatives are available deserves sympathy more than censure.

I just hope he drives properly on the M50.

now c'mon, surely you of all people here should understand the logic of driving everywhere knowing your clubs are always in the boot.

MJohnston

First Up wrote: »

Anyone who'se life is empty enough to choose hours in traffic when alternatives are available deserves sympathy more than censure.

I just hope he drives properly on the M50.

Ah sure he has a Tesla, he can just play some games on the screen while not paying attention to the road!

Idbatterim

MJohnston wrote: »

ESB just the other week started charging for charging, so it's no longer a free deal. Tax on my i3 isn't actually that much cheaper from the Mini I used to have, €170 a year now.

Plus, even if you're in an EV, you're still stuck in godawful Dublin traffic. The only benefit really is not having to use the clutch all the time!

its still as good as free compared to diesel or electric. People moved to diesel in their droves to save a few cent per litre and some mickey mouse motor tax savings for the most part. Electric would still be what? 98% cheaper than diesel maybe?

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

its still as good as free compared to diesel or electric. People moved to diesel in their droves to save a few cent per litre and some mickey mouse motor tax savings for the most part. Electric would still be what? 98% cheaper than diesel maybe?

The maths still don't really work at this point though,especially with a tiny second hand market. If you're switching to electric to save money, you'd better not be buying new, basically

CrankyHaus

With all this talk of getting people onto public transport, has anyone ever seen a bus, train or LUAS in Dublin City at rush hour that wasn't full or close to full?

I don't accept that we have underutilised public transport, at least not in Dublin.

This suggests that a focus on getting people out of cars should change to getting people into something else - whether that's public transport, bicycles, e-scooters, home working or more likely a combination of all of them.

Thargor

I genuinely think ebikes are going to solve a big chunk of the problem, they're the absolute ideal solution and the technology improves every couple of months nevermind years. The only thing holding back mass adoption is people don't know how good they are, anyone who tries one is addicted straight away. The government should be incentivising the crap out of them.

I still commute on my roadbike because it keeps me thin and fit and Bray is just one big traffic disaster at peak times that I can cruise past but I'll be straight onto an ebike in a couple of decades when I start getting too old for manual.