M50 Congestion

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

It's not really - I'm talking about improvements within the city centre, BusConnects is more concerned with cycling improvements on bus corridors out of the centre.

Fair enough, I agree with this point, if I had my way a congestion charge for cars plus completely segregated cycle ways would be built along with further pedestrianizationof the cc. My wife cycles into and out of the cc via the canals and the amount of near misses she has had is scary. We need to look after cyclists and pedestrians in the cc.

It's also an important enough solution to require its own separate project at this point. We need more alternative modes to cars and buses, and e-scooters are a fantastic additional option that could thrive in a city with the right infrastructure. Hell, I even used them in San Francisco (a city that decidedly does NOT have anywhere near the right infrastructure) and they were a superbly liberating way of getting around the city.

Wasn’t our minister for stepaside- sorry, transport looking into the legalities?

That's not quite what I said - I said that any newly defined projects are going to require 10+ years of development. BusConnects and Metrolink are very well defined, well-progressed, and with a lot more solid political commitment and funding, their timelines could be accelerated, perhaps by even a year or two.

Timelines will only be cut by mass cpo’ing for bus connects, which no political party will do unless they had the best interests of citizens at their core- which they don’t.

I will note that I know this won't happen under Fine Gael, because it's easier for them to siphon money off to private property developers under the ineffectual guise of "solving the housing crisis".

Agreed

As I said, everything I mentioned could be done, and would help, but whether it will or not is a matter of political guts. Fine Gael don't have the will nor the guts, Fianna Fail I can't see being any better. The best we can hope for is a progressive coalition partner next time round who very much wants to demand a public transport/green focused agenda in return for partnership. They'll probably be sunk by the simple fact that none of this is possible without silly, ineffectual tax decreases, but I think we need a sacrificial lamb who is willing to kill their career to build a better transport system, at this point.

Im hoping for a green/social democrats type transport department in the next election. I won’t hold my breath......

PhilOssophy

I love the way everybody says everybody else is the problem, I suppose every one on here drives in the left most lane, doesn't change lane, etc, etc.....

Idbatterim

an outer ring road is lunacy! The traffic is mostly dublin generated! if you are going to build another ring road, far better off to build the eastern bypass! Would take huge amounts of traffic off the west m50 and if going north dublin etc, takes a far far shorter route for traffic!

Dravokivich

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I love the way everybody says everybody else is the problem, I suppose every one on here drives in the left most lane, doesn't change lane, etc, etc.....

I do, only change lane when I need to.

donvito99

Seve OB wrote: »

we are at the stage now where we need a new motorway, not in 10 years time, but now!
It needs to link M7 from Naas, through M4 @ Maynooth, M3 @ Dunboyne, M2 @ Ashbourne & M1 @ Balbriggan.

As you Orbital routes should be taking traffic off suburban roads. The M50 doesn't do that for 2 reasons.
1 Congestion, way to busy so people have to find alternative routes.
2 I recall reading somewhere that orbital routes around the world are not built as toll roads and it is possible that the M50 is the only one in the world to have a toll on it (certainly one of very few). People avoid the M50 when they can resulting more traffic going through suburban areas.

Where I live close to the toll, it takes me a bit longer to come off and avoid paying and to be honest for years I never bothered, but in recent years the tolls started to add up a lot so now at least half the time I try and avoid it even when it is free flowing at weekends or during off peak hours. What I've seen is that loads of others are doing the same. My dad nearly always drives across the city to avoid it as does a lot of traffic heading for the airport (especially taxis).

"We've built a motorway at great expense and it doesn't work."

"Have you tried addressing the reason why it won't work?"

"No. We're just going to build another one."

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

the luas serves this journey though? I dont doubt its a total farce!

The luas and the bus are not viable alternatives to the private car, in the real world.

Dravokivich

donvito99 wrote: »

"We've built a motorway at great expense and it doesn't work."

"Have you tried addressing the reason why it won't work?"

"No. We're just going to build another one."

Well, with the M50, between Chapelizod and Lucan, the only way to cross the Liffey is the M50. Another motorway may not be needed, but other ways around it are.

Idbatterim

As you Orbital routes should be taking traffic off suburban roads. The M50 doesn't do that for 2 reasons.
1 Congestion, way to busy so people have to find alternative routes.
2 I recall reading somewhere that orbital routes around the world are not built as toll roads and it is possible that the M50 is the only one in the world to have a toll on it (certainly one of very few). People avoid the M50 when they can resulting more traffic going through suburban areas.

its a funny one, as it is free to use for anyone that doesnt cross the westlink... That does cause increased traffic to go through town and the same with the eastlink...

donvito99

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, with the M50, between Chapelizod and Lucan, the only way to cross the Liffey is the M50. Another motorway may not be needed, but other ways around it are.

Why not build the bridge that makes the proposed Metro West feasible, instead of another road bridge?

crossman47

ELM327 wrote: »

The luas and the bus are not viable alternatives to the private car, in the real world.

If you are coming into Dublin by car from South or West, then the Luas is a real alternative with Parking at the Red Cow.

Dravokivich

donvito99 wrote: »

Why not build the bridge that makes the proposed Metro West feasible, instead of another road bridge?

People might not be looking to get, to where it'll bring them and you could easily end up with a 3 legged commute.

I know it was primarily to link up Tallaght and Blanchardstown. But I don't recall where it was meant to go from there?

I admit, I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to this, but from my view, crossing points for Liffey Valley itself is the obstacle that needs to be addressed to relieve the M50. And it's something I'd expect most major city expansions would have avoided. But we've wrapped ourselves around it.

ELM327

crossman47 wrote: »

If you are coming into Dublin by car from South or West, then the Luas is a real alternative with Parking at the Red Cow.

Why would someone stop their car, pay for parking, pay for public transport, all the while to be surrounded by others? When you're already paying tax insurance etc doesnt make sense.


I'll be long dead before I give up the keys to my private car.

LeinsterDub

ELM327 wrote: »

The luas and the bus are not viable alternatives to the private car, in the real world.

They are viable for hundreds of thousands of people every day.

ELM327

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They are viable for hundreds of thousands of people every day.

Those people are already doing it though. Be they ecomentalists, people afraid to drive in the big smoke, or unable to use multi storey carparks etc.


What is being proposed above is that it is a viable alternative for those that do not do so now, who reckon that the delay on the m50 is preferable to public transport.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Why would someone stop their car, pay for parking, pay for public transport, all the while to be surrounded by others? When you're already paying tax insurance etc doesnt make sense.


I'll be long dead before I give up the keys to my private car.

Exactly, and this is also the attitude of most people who clog up the streets of Dublin city with their single-occupancy cars.

Selfish.
Selfish.
Selfish.

Which is why I think it's increasingly clear to most people, and even to politicians, that we'll need to say a giant Fück You to car drivers the way they've been saying the same to the rest of us for decades now.

Posters like the above are proof positive that it doesn't matter how good your transport system is, some people are too selfish to do anything other than drive their car.

We can't wait for them to change their minds, we need to force them. Remove their parking spaces, charge them extortionate city-access tolls, double the fines and penalties for violating bus lanes, and introduce widespread automated enforcement for that and to reduce their speeds to 30kmh city-centre-wide.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

Exactly, and this is also the attitude of most people who clog up the streets of Dublin city with their single-occupancy cars.

Selfish.
Selfish.
Selfish.

Which is why I think it's increasingly clear to most people, and even to politicians, that we'll need to say a giant Fück You to car drivers the way they've been saying the same to the rest of us for decades now.

Posters like the above are proof positive that it doesn't matter how good your transport system is, some people are too selfish to do anything other than drive their car.

We can't wait for them to change their minds, we need to force them. Remove their parking spaces, charge them extortionate city-access tolls, double the fines and penalties for violating bus lanes, and introduce widespread automated enforcement for that and to reduce their speeds to 30kmh city-centre-wide.

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

Dravokivich

MJohnston wrote: »

Exactly, and this is also the attitude of most people who clog up the streets of Dublin city with their single-occupancy cars.

Selfish.
Selfish.
Selfish.

Which is why I think it's increasingly clear to most people, and even to politicians, that we'll need to say a giant Fück You to car drivers the way they've been saying the same to the rest of us for decades now.

Posters like the above are proof positive that it doesn't matter how good your transport system is, some people are too selfish to do anything other than drive their car.

We can't wait for them to change their minds, we need to force them. Remove their parking spaces, charge them extortionate city-access tolls, double the fines and penalties for violating bus lanes, and introduce widespread automated enforcement for that and to reduce their speeds to 30kmh city-centre-wide.

Any idea what itll take to get them off the road, or just penalise them into submission? London already has congestion charges and it doesnt read like that's solved the issue with a over burdened public transport.

magicbastarder

ELM327 wrote: »

The luas and the bus are not viable alternatives to the private car, in the real world.

for getting to work? i live in dublin 9 and my office is in leopardstown. you couldn't pay me to drive there; i've been living here seven years and not once in that seven years have i driven.
granted, i have lots of bus options at the house end and a luas stop a short walk from the office at the other end - and i'm lucky with that - but this is what we should be aiming for.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

And I drive an i3 (not into the city, because I'm not an asshole, at least in that regard), but I keep myself informed enough to know that EVs still create substantial and dangerous localised air pollution:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/microplastics-lung-development-air-pollution-car-tyres-dispatches-a8951201.html

Everyone pays for the road, car owner or driver or not. There is no special status that allows car commuters to claim they deserve access to roads. Especially in Dublin city, where they are vastly outnumbered by tax-paying individuals who use less-selfish commuting methods.

The best thing about car commuters is they are their own worst enemy - they're the ones inhaling the most air pollution (even if you're driving an EV!) - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/13/cyclists-exposed-to-less-air-pollution-than-drivers-on-congested-routes-study

So, the likelihood of you being long dead sooner rather than later, is pretty high.

MJohnston

Dravokivich wrote: »

Any idea what itll take to get them off the road, or just penalise them into submission? London already has congestion charges and it doesnt read like that's solved the issue with a over burdened public transport.

Congestion charges don't really solve much because the rich drivers who tend to clog up the roads are willing to pay them.

The most effective thing to do would be to cut off access to parking. As I mentioned earlier, remove all on-street parking metres (leaving only resident's permits as an option in applicable areas), re-introduce the private office parking space levies (and make them even more punitive), start making it much harder for cars to reach multi-storey car parks in the city, etc.

After that, we should start exploring more and more pedestrianisation (thankfully DCC seem to actually be interested in this), cutting off space otherwise gobbled up by private cars. Leave space for public transport however!

Once all that is done, might be worth exploring a toll on crossing the canals or something like that.

donvito99

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

Your taxes don't even come close to paying a) for the roads or b) for maintaining the roads.

I'd say the majority of people using public transport in Dublin also pay road tax, but leave their traffic causing device at home.

donvito99

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

Your "road" tax doesn't even come close to paying a) for the roads or b) for maintaining the roads.

I'd say the majority of people using public transport in Dublin also pay road tax, but leave their traffic causing device at home.

Seve OB

donvito99 wrote: »

Your "road" tax doesn't even come close to paying a) for the roads or b) for maintaining the roads.

I'd say the majority of people using public transport in Dublin also pay road tax, but leave their traffic causing device at home.

you seem to be very anti driving.

why? if you don't want to drive, don't.

I drive because I want to, its simple, its quicker, its flexible, I can afford to, its cheaper than taxis, its reliable and I enjoy it

magicbastarder

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

this is an argument i really don't like. the claim that 'i have an entitlement to drive as much as i like because i pay for it' ignores the fact that motoring has a lot of externalised costs.

e.g. if you want to pay for an expensive watch - you pay your money and take your choice, and you get to enjoy your watch and that's great - and most other people would be barely aware.

but motoring has a societal cost; no amount of money spent by a motorist who drives through the city centre, will restitute the effect that has on other people (mainly non-motorists); be it clogging up the roads with horrendously inefficient vehicles, the CO2 emissions created by doing to, the danger externalised onto more exposed road users, etc. etc.

in short - i don't *care* if you've paid money to drive your car, it makes life more difficult for me, and i can't pay money to take back the effects of your choice.

Banzai600

i have to laugh at the hate for car drivers. Get off your high horses ffs :rolleyes:



There are no alternatives for ppl who traverse across the city , who are not on a luas / dart line, or close to where they work or can avail of cycle lanes - great if you are a few kms from city, but thats it. No good if you are 5+ miles away from your job.


i know a few ppl who traverse north to south and vice versa via M50. Torture, stress etc. they average 1.5 / 2hrs from sandyford to coolock exit say and same going other way, the M50 is over capacity in the eve's and mornings. What else are they supposed to do, the city is grid locked too.

i cross the city most days by using a motorbike, / scooter. I have noticed that volume everywhere is growing at a rapid rate, even at the weekends, roads are very busy. Ive seen more road rage and multiple ppl in screaming matches at traffic lights etc, gunning for each other and weekly its worse.

Also know 3 ppl who use the bus services to commute, from north to south & north to west, it takes them 2 / 2.5 hrs to get to work, and another person who goes from D6 to drumconcdra area, its 2hrs. Why would you want to sit on a bus, 20hrs a week of your life.




re M50 accidents, some just happen genuinely, but there is a lot of aggression, tail gating , ppl on phones, ppl on tablets, bus drivers / some trucks hogging lanes etc. Not to mention the ones using hard shoulders, crossing median strips, coming off aux lane to jump back on, up an over the exits / entrances to beat queues and blazing through red lights while doing so at the top of the slips.

Slowing the average speed down will not work, irish drivers dont have the etiquette / courtesy you find in other countries and ive driven a very wide range of countries abroad on 2 and four wheels.

The m50 is past capacity to cope. Plus its the best cash cow in the country that keeps on giving, dont upset the shareholders will you....


the outer ring road should be done, bringing ppl into the city to go back out again is out of pure greed, there has to be an alternative miles out of the city to put in another road to link M4 , M7 etc, but again the m50 is bringing in the money and lots of it.


If you look at the samuel beckett bridge, you cant go left coming from point depot , as the council want you to use the eastlink instead - thats a fact.

it'll never be fixed, will only get worse.

magicbastarder

Banzai600 wrote: »

i have to laugh at the hate for car drivers. Get off your high horses ffs :rolleyes:
There are no alternatives for ppl who traverse across the city

but...

Banzai600 wrote: »

i cross the city most days by using a motorbike, / scooter.

MJohnston

It's almost as if there are plenty of alternatives, but the truth is exactly as ELM327 stated it - "I'll be long dead before I give up the keys to my private car"

A high horse would be a great way to get through the city mind you.

Seve OB

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just let us drive on the roads our taxes pay for? Simples.
(PS I fail to see the point of throwing tailpipe emissions arguments at the car? Not all cars produce tailpipe emissions. I drive a Tesla)

no tailpipe emissions but one day I wouldn't be surprised if we will all find out the true level of emissions and environmental impact of mining the lithium and fossil fuel burning to power these zero emissions cars is a lot more than what we are being lead to believe

Banzai600

magicbastarder wrote: »

but...
Originally Posted by Banzai600
i cross the city most days by using a motorbike, / scooter.

Are you kidding, im biking many years, RSA & motorists hate motorbikes & scooters, not a hope you'd get ppl onto a scooter or bike. Its an alternative that wouldnt be considered by any politician / government, but would make a big difference.

whippet

building more roads aint the solution - like the field of dreams ; build it and they will come.

Reduce the need for people to have to congregate every day at the same time to the same couple of square miles and the problem will start to alleviate.

At the same time as our rural politicians are complaining about small towns and villages becoming ghost towns and dormer towns - the urban politicians are running around in circles to find ways to get more people in to the cities.

We are living in an age where technology does not require a large proportion of the workforce to be sitting at a desk in a central office at the same time ..... so why they hell do we insist on hoards of people on trains, buses, cars in to an already cramped city.

This problem won't be solved by trying to fit square pegs in to round holes.