Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

The need to stay under 100 km/hr and turn off heating is well on its way to being a thing of the past with 50 and 64 kwh cars.

I had a 26kWh and I never turned off the heating or stayed under 100km/h....:P


Now I have 36kWh I am trying to find way to use up the km's

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

......................

Needing to do 600 miles in 10 hours to make the ferry in France will be seen as a luxury item.

You don't actually need to do it - so in future you wont do it


Btw - range extender technology is also doable for the users that actually NEED the 800 miles in a day capability.

Mazda are going to be offering this on their new EV.

........

Oh right

ELM327

Augeo wrote: »

I'll admit, I reckon the trips to fill up my diesel are a pain in the arse. I pass plenty of service stations but it's a pain to pull in and refuel. Sometimes I go maybe 12/14 days on a tank and it's great. Sometimes I fill up on a Thursday and have to fill again on Sunday night. It's a pain.

Having to plug in my car a few times a week either at home or at work and unplug the thing again afterwards I don't think would be any less of a pain to be honest.

The €3500 ish it takes to fuel the thing for 20k miles/annum isn't an issue for me as it's largely a work tool so it's not money out of my pocket so to speak. Loads of folk don't travel 20k miles /annum at 37mpg so for them the potential savings might not swing the EV for them either.

I'll go EV when it suits me or when I've no other choice........... much like the 90%+ of folk on the roads The day may never come also

I've an each to their own attitude to folk who reckon a €40k Kona, a just as cheap as a well specced ICE E Golf, a cheap Leaf or whatEVer else makes sense for them

Do you know what's really getting my goat now?
I'm driving herselfs prius at the moment, and am filling the tank once every 4 days. My skoda was much better on fuel.


But I'm getting my Tesla next week and that will rarely if ever require a "fuel stop". I have a full battery with >400km range every morning and have charging at work too. The days of a dedicated "fuel stop" are thankfully over.

cadaliac

Old diesel wrote: »

The wider issue is that EVs or not......

We will all have to change how we live and work.

Doing 700 miles in a day in a fossil fuel car will be seen in years to come as unsustainable.

In the future we would need to look at why we need to make that journey.

Needing to do 600 miles in 10 hours to make the ferry in France will be seen as a luxury item.

You don't actually need to do it - so in future you wont do it


Btw - range extender technology is also doable for the users that actually NEED the 800 miles in a day capability.

Mazda are going to be offering this on their new EV.

The London taxi also has range extender tech.

The latter has 70 odd miles EV only range and can recharge as a normal EV.

But it also has a Volvo petrol engine that can act as a generator to the battery. This gives extra range and if required you can still top up with petrol to use the Volvo powered generator

That's all very fine. Its also in the future.

Shefwedfan

josip wrote: »

I'm back.
Did I hear someone asking about casual 1000km spins with the family?
What do you want you know?

I think you are a special case :P:P:P:P:P

Old diesel

Okay - it's not that you wont do the 600 miles trip to the Ferry in France.

It's just that as society changes and attitudes change - you will more likely plan the trip differently.

Why do we need to do a Cork to Dublin trip in the morning - spend 6 hours in a meeting and then return - in a diesel car.

Where is the public transport - the trains, the coaches.

That's before we consider that technology already available today - makes a future Cork to Dublin and back trip in an EV trip very doable.

The Bishop Basher

zilog_jones wrote: »

How often are you driving over 270 km and not returning home in one day? I'd say it's about four times a year for me. Not many people are going to be driving over 200 km without taking a break anyway.

Range wouldn't be a concern for me given my mileage tbh although I don't want to have forced breaks on the few occasions that I might do it. I was just responding to the idea that EV's were somehow easier and more convenient to refuel. They aren't. Quite the opposite when charging points are at a premium.

zilog_jones wrote: »

I don't get your DIY maintenance argument either - an EV is pretty much the same as a normal car except with a zero-maintenance powertrain. You still have normal brakes, suspension, coolant system, etc., just a motor and battery that you don't need to touch (at most: the battery has a coolant circuit like an ICE).

Agreed. Again I'm not the one making the argument that EV's are cheaper to maintain because they have less moving parts. I'm just making the point that doing your own maintenance considerably cuts the cost of it and so it becomes far less of a consideration when buying a car.

Old diesel wrote: »

The need to stay under 100 km/hr and turn off heating is well on its way to being a thing of the past with 50 and 64 kwh cars.

That's my point. It's on it's way to being a thing of the past but were not there just yet. Solutions to so many problems with EV's always appear to be just around the next corner. Everything is in the future but that's no use to us now.

ELM327

bazz26 wrote: »

Isn't that because VW knocked 5k off them recently to shift them because they are now end of life?

Lets take the Hyundai Kona, petrol starts @ 21,495, diesel @ 23,495 and EV @ 38,130 including grants. That's a substantial price difference.

So excluding grants, the price is 48k for EV vs 23k for the diesel.
25k buys a hell of a lot of diesel.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

So excluding grants, the price is 48k for EV vs 23k for the diesel.
25k buys a hell of a lot of diesel.

I honestly dont get the electric Kona. I sat into the combustion engine version and it was not a car I would pay 25k for let alone 48k. I know the 10k reduces it to 38k but still madness.



But each to their own,

GreeBo

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Not really..

You can easily refuel on route to work or home with multiple choices depending on which route you decide to take and no fear whatsoever of having to wait around because all the charging points are in use when you get there.

So the only argument falling flat on it's arse is yours.

I live in south dublin and have to go out of my way to get to a garage to refuel, whereas there are numerous plugs both in my car park in work and in my house at home.

When i read about people having to stay under 100kph and switch off the heating when the temp drops below 8 degrees outside to preserve their battery long enough to get home, i'm out.

I want hassle free driving and EV's just aren't there yet.

When I hear about people stuck in limp home mode because their DPF has shat the bed, I'm out.
When I hear about people changing their driving style in an EV because they cant look at a gauge on their dash I wonder how often these people get/got stranded without fuel in the ICE cars....

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I honestly dont get the electric Kona. I sat into the combustion engine version and it was not a car I would pay 25k for let alone 48k. I know the 10k reduces it to 38k but still madness.



But each to their own,

I actually liked the Kona when it came out here and was considering one.
But the price, coupled with relatively slow DC charging, lack of a non paddy spec option and lack of AWD ruled it out.
Imagine paying 40k for a Kona when you could have a model 3 for 7k more!

Old diesel

Augeo wrote: »

Oh right

In 10 years time - planning your holiday to require 600 miles on fossil fuel driving will be seen as a disgrace.

It's unnecessary fossil fuel use as you don't actually need to do that holiday or at least burn diesel to do it.

The problem I have with the whole EV criticism is that I see the change to EVs as been a smaller change then a lot of the other change we will have to make.

I live on a farm - and I expect that cow numbers will have to reduce for emissions.

That's a far bigger change in my mind then charging an EV every X amount.

I also forsee that a lot of our homes will need retrofitting reduce energy use.

If I'm going to give up cows then my sympathy for the diesel driver coming back to the Ferry in 8 hours from holiday is somewhere around zero.

The entitlement culture of "well I should be able to keep going as I always did".

That's why you end up being forced to change.

pwurple

I'm the one making the argument they are cheaper to maintain, because that is my lived experience for the last 5 years. We have two cars, it's my cash going out the door on them.

So,Yes, the engine wear is completely gone. no oil changes, no spark plugs, coolants, they just have any of those parts. They have brakes, suspension and tyres, but the regen braking puts less wear on the brakes/tyres and the suspension is under less stress because there is less vibration in an EV.

Basically, wear and tear is lower.

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

In 10 years time - planning your holiday to require 600 miles on fossil fuel driving will be seen as a disgrace.

It's unnecessary fossil fuel use as you don't actually need to do that holiday or at least burn diesel to do it.

The problem I have with the whole EV criticism is that I see the change to EVs as been a smaller change then a lot of the other change we will have to make.

I live on a farm - and I expect that cow numbers will have to reduce for emissions.

That's a far bigger change in my mind then charging an EV every X amount.

I also forsee that a lot of our homes will need retrofitting reduce energy use.

If I'm going to give up cows then my sympathy for the diesel driver coming back to the Ferry in 8 hours from holiday is somewhere around zero.

The entitlement culture of "well I should be able to keep going as I always did".

That's why you end up being forced to change.

Hang on a sec, giving up cows??

Don't listen to the Great Hunberg's scaremongering nonsense. I'll drive an EV but I'm not giving up steak or milk!!!

cadaliac

pwurple wrote: »

I'm the one making the argument they are cheaper to maintain, because that is my lived experience for the last 5 years. We have two cars, it's my cash going out the door on them.

So,Yes, the engine wear is completely gone. no oil changes, no spark plugs, coolants, they just have any of those parts. They have brakes, suspension and tyres, but the regen braking puts less wear on the brakes/tyres and the suspension is under less stress because there is less vibration in an EV.

Basically, wear and tear is lower.

Okey dokey.
Do the batteries last the lifetime of the car?
Do you have figures re: cost of charging at your house?

cnocbui

The way the EV fans seem to be deliberately not getting it is so predictable.

It's about having 400 - 500 km range, not over 700. Any less than that and the car is a hassle. I don't buy a car for just the average daily commute or will it take a couple bags of shopping, I look at what it needs to be able to do in the extreme, such as four trips a year to Dublin to take the offspring to DCU and then pick them up again at the end of the semester - along with their tower PC, three monitors, a laptop and all their clothes and bed linen, and not want to faff about in Dublin having to find a charger and spending 20-40min top-up charging and most f'n definitely not wanting to wait for access to such a charger because I want to get home in time to start supper to feed the other offspring.

For me, using a car shouldn't involve the time and effort to plan a military campaign to get from A-B.

Can someone please provide a list of employers that provide free charging at work? I keep reading about this but I'm having a hard time believing they are the norm. Revenue will be looking to income tax that any minute.

Just yesterday I spotted something from a former Tesla owner that spoke the truth of it:

Chelsea Northrup
‏Verified account @ChelseaNorthru

Traded in our Tesla with 500 miles left on the warranty.
This was one of the most beautiful and fun cars I’ve ever owned. It’s also the worst built and planned cars I’ve ever owned.
I’m glad I owned one and thrilled to see it go.
...

Shadowdancer
‏ @DireFog
Oct 29
Replying to @ChelseaNorthru

Good to see you got rid of it before the designed-in fault in the controller inevitably bricked the whole thing. That's now the problem of the poor sucker who bought it.
1 reply 0 retweets 11 likes
Chelsea Northrup
‏Verified account @ChelseaNorthru
Oct 29

Yep, that was looming over me. It’s going to auction. the flaw is well-publicized so hopefully whoever buys it knows what they’re in for.

And in an earlier tweet:

Hey @elonmusk I came back to my car to find it in a puddle and unable to start or turn on.
Should I put it in a big bag of rice or...?
(The far side is submerged 10”. I did not park in the puddle, it formed while I was at dinner) 9:38 AM - 23 Jul 2019 from Mystic, CT

Chelsea Northrup
‏Verified account @ChelseaNorthru
Aug 24

Update:
My car still isn’t fixed. The service center is a nightmare and there is only 1 in CT.
The batteries weren’t damaged, it was a wiring harness.
I’m buying a different type of car because the Tesla service center available to me is so poor.

...
Tony Northrup
‏Verified account @tonynorthrup

Tony Northrup Retweeted Chelsea Northrup

Sold our 2015 @Tesla S. It's sexy, cool, fast & clean BUT:

Poor build quality
1 overworked service center in CT
45 days for a part
Leaks in rain
Not enough chargers
Inconvenient charging locations
Charging adds hours to trips
Cold kills the battery (can't leave it at airport)

Tony Northrup added,
Chelsea Northrup
Verified account @ChelseaNorthru
Traded in our Tesla with 500 miles left on the warranty.
This was one of the most beautiful and fun cars I’ve ever owned. It’s also the worst built and planned cars I’ve ever owned.…
9:38 AM - 29 Oct 2019

...
We kept our previous cars for 10-15 years, but didn't dare own it out of warranty because:

Flash memory, door handle failures seem inevitable
0 third-party mechanics
$400 tow charge to service center
It's generally falling apart

Boom: "Charging adds hours to trips." That is just something I don't want. I am sure electric cars are the future, but they are not the present, for me. New/different battery tech with a higher energy density is required. An EV shouldn't have to weigh 2 tonnes in order to have a decent range.

The Bishop Basher

GreeBo wrote: »

I live in south dublin and have to go out of my way to get to a garage to refuel, whereas there are numerous plugs both in my car park in work and in my house at home.

Strange. I live in North Wicklow so i regularly drive around South Dublin and i've never had to drive out of my way to find a filling station. I just fill up as i'm passing one. I'm not sure why you've experienced this issue

GreeBo wrote: »

When I hear about people stuck in limp home mode because their DPF has shat the bed, I'm out.

That's not the same. Any car can develop a fault and leave you stranded. But having to lower your speed and switch things off "Apollo 13" style in order to get yourself home is not a fault, it's a limitation in the technology. Yes it's advancing all the time and i'm sure it'll be great in the future but that was the point being made. It's just not there yet.

ELM327

cadaliac wrote: »

Okey dokey.
Do the batteries last the lifetime of the car?
Do you have figures re: cost of charging at your house?

Standard warranty now is 8 years
Excluding nissan leafs (as they use crap batteries) there is very little out there in the realms of degradation.
Cost to charge at your house is ~7c/kWh at night, so to charge a 64kWh kona for instance would be 64*0.07 or €4.48. Let's assume €4.75 for losses.


For that €4.75 you get 350-450 km.

ELM327

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Strange. I live in North Wicklow so i regularly drive around South Dublin and i've never had to drive out of my way to find a filling station. I just fill up as i'm passing one. I'm not sure why you've experienced this issue



That's not the same. Any car can develop a fault and leave you stranded. But having to lower your speed and switch things off "Apollo 13" style in order to get yourself home is not a fault, it's a limitation in the technology. Yes it's advancing all the time and i'm sure it'll be great in the future but that was the point being made. It's just not there yet.

But you have to detour.
EVs are charged where you park! No detour.

pwurple

cadaliac wrote: »

Okey dokey.
Do the batteries last the lifetime of the car?
Do you have figures re: cost of charging at your house?

So far so good... I've the car since 2015, battery was showing at 97% health when we got it, yesterday, nearly five years later it was showing at 89%. Ireland's conditions with low temperature variation seems to keep batteries very healthy indeed.

Cost of charging is on your electricity bill. I have a 24kW car and night rate electricity is just under 9c per kW. A fill from empty would be around 2 euro and 11 cent.

But, I charge at work, there are 24 free charge points in the carpark.

cnocbui

ELM327 wrote: »

But you have to detour.
EVs are charged where you park! No detour.

Not if you only have on street parking or your employer doesn't offer charging.

zilog_jones

pwurple wrote: »

no [...] coolants

Might want to check that again

Old diesel

Ultimately though the diesel driver "votes" and a few things to note......

1) IF - IF the ban comes in in 2030 - all diesel cars still on road including December 2029 new reg diesels - are still legal up to 2045.

2) if EVs cant work by 2029 and diesels are still being made then the 2030 ban slips.

3) diesel drivers of the 800 miles in a day are part of the group Leo Varadkar wants votes from. The "people who get up early in the morning" group.

cadaliac

ELM327 wrote: »

Standard warranty now is 8 years
Excluding nissan leafs (as they use crap batteries) there is very little out there in the realms of degradation.
Cost to charge at your house is ~7c/kWh at night, so to charge a 64kWh kona for instance would be 64*0.07 or €4.48. Let's assume €4.75 for losses.


For that €4.75 you get 350-450 km.

Thank you - I had no idea what the cost was and genuinely wanted to know.
Quite economical.

cadaliac

pwurple wrote: »

So far so good... I've the car since 2015, battery was showing at 97% health when we got it, yesterday, nearly five years later it was showing at 89%. Ireland's conditions with low temperature variation seems to keep batteries very healthy indeed.

Cost of charging is on your electricity bill. I have a 24kW car and night rate electricity is just under 9c per kW. A fill from empty would be around 2 euro and 11 cent.

But, I charge at work, there are 24 free charge points in the carpark.

Cheers for the charging info.
We have a car park with 3 charging stations (~450 employees)
They plan to double the charge points but speaking to work colleagues in a similar industry/Area with near identical car park ratios - its also under populated with charge stations. So much so, there is a race to get the points in the morning.

pwurple

cadaliac wrote: »

We have a car park with 3 charging stations (~450 employees)
They plan to double the charge points but speaking to work colleagues in a similar industry/Area with near identical car park ratios - its also under populated with charge stations. So much so, there is a race to get the points in the morning.

I've been in places with a handful, usually the employees set them up like a meeting room, and book charging slots if there are too few. Book your charging slot for a wednesday morning. They don't take long to charge, and I only charge mine once or twice a week.

josip

Old diesel wrote: »

In 10 years time - planning your holiday to require 600 miles on fossil fuel driving will be seen as a disgrace.

It's unnecessary fossil fuel use as you don't actually need to do that holiday or at least burn diesel to do it.

The problem I have with the whole EV criticism is that I see the change to EVs as been a smaller change then a lot of the other change we will have to make.

I live on a farm - and I expect that cow numbers will have to reduce for emissions.

That's a far bigger change in my mind then charging an EV every X amount.

I also forsee that a lot of our homes will need retrofitting reduce energy use.

If I'm going to give up cows then my sympathy for the diesel driver coming back to the Ferry in 8 hours from holiday is somewhere around zero.

The entitlement culture of "well I should be able to keep going as I always did".

That's why you end up being forced to change.

Old diesel, I don't recall anyone here saying that cows are a luxury and derived food products in 10 years time will be seen as a disgrace?
Some people might think that and say it on other fora, but I don't recall anyone being that judgemental here.

However, you've just said that my kids don't need to see their grandparents once a year, and in 10 years time that kind of a journey will be a disgrace?

I am completely supportive of EV technology and if we were a purely Irish-based family we would have changed years ago.

The Bishop Basher

pwurple wrote: »

So,Yes, the engine wear is completely gone. no oil changes, no spark plugs, coolants, they just have any of those parts. They have brakes, suspension and tyres, but the regen braking puts less wear on the brakes/tyres and the suspension is under less stress because there is less vibration in an EV.

Basically, wear and tear is lower.

I agree that wear and tear on engine parts will be lower because obviously there's no engine to wear and tear but come on, the bit in bold, really ?

I do most of my own maintenance and repairs and the majority of money I spend is on tyres and suspension parts. I live in a town with speed ramps every 200 metres unfortunately. Oil and filters come to about €150 a year at most. Engine issues are rare thankfully and any expensive repairs i've had have nearly always been electrical like phone modules etc. I imagine these exist on EV's too.

I'm not anti EV. I have no reason to be. I look forward to owning and driving one but I won't buy something just because it has a battery. It has to tick certain boxes. I'm in no way attached to petrol or diesel especially after enjoying a few taxi rides in Teslas last week. They are a beautiful car but beyond the price range of many for now and not without their own issues.

In short, expensive repair bills and maintenance bills will have not gone away with electric vehicles.

cadaliac wrote: »

Cheers for the charging info.
We have a car park with 3 charging stations (~450 employees)
They plan to double the charge points but speaking to work colleagues in a similar industry/Area with near identical car park ratios - its also under populated with charge stations. So much so, there is a race to get the points in the morning.

We have 8 spaces with about 1800 employees. I rarely go in these days but when I do I leave very early just to get a standard parking space. The charging points are always already full when I get in about 7:45 which must be a pain in the ass for anyone relying on one.

The Bishop Basher

ELM327 wrote: »

But you have to detour.
EVs are charged where you park! No detour.

No I don't. I pass by filling stations all day as i'm driving from one place to another. I just drop in, fill up and keep going.

If I do detour it's a deliberate choice because I know of cheaper fuel nearby but I never have to detour.

creedp

Old diesel wrote: »

In 10 years time - planning your holiday to require 600 miles on fossil fuel driving will be seen as a disgrace.

It's unnecessary fossil fuel use as you don't actually need to do that holiday or at least burn diesel to do it.

The problem I have with the whole EV criticism is that I see the change to EVs as been a smaller change then a lot of the other change we will have to make.

I live on a farm - and I expect that cow numbers will have to reduce for emissions.

That's a far bigger change in my mind then charging an EV every X amount.

I also forsee that a lot of our homes will need retrofitting reduce energy use.

If I'm going to give up cows then my sympathy for the diesel driver coming back to the Ferry in 8 hours from holiday is somewhere around zero.

The entitlement culture of "well I should be able to keep going as I always did".

That's why you end up being forced to change.

Are you saying that in 10 years time you won't be able to drive to the ferry / airport to go on holidays or that you won't be able to take a ferry or airplane to go on holidays fullstop?