Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

..........


You had loads of people dumping pre2008 cars to "upgrade" to post 2008 diesel at the cost of thousands to save a few quid on tax..............

A bit like folk jumping into EVs to save a few quid on petrol nowadays

cnocbui

is_that_so wrote: »

They weren't forced. The emissions standard, not a bad thing in its own right, effectively sold diesel as the great saviour. That has turned out to be slightly off the mark. In many cases the tax change if spread over a year is not too onerous but given we'll drive 10km to save a cent on fuel, no surprise at the price sensitivity.

You must be a politician. They penalised petrol vehicle ownership by increasing registration costs, the excise on petrol and the VRT on petrol cars, making diesels a cheaper option.

pippip

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nobody got almost forced to buy anything



You buy a 2005 car and the tax was the same in 2007 as it was in 2008. The difference was suddenly a car post 2008 might be 100-200 euro cheaper in tax.


You had loads of people dumping pre2008 cars to "upgrade" to post 2008 diesel at the cost of thousands to save a few quid on tax.

even check the posts on here. Car recommendation for xyz and in the middle you will see "cheap tax".

Well if we take the BMW 520D, you'd a difference of 500 per year.

The bigger problem with the 2008 tax system was all of a sudden certain models of cars weren't even available unless you bought diesel.

Some petrol models were literally just wiped from the market! Nothing the public could really do about it as dealers just stopped supplying them as the tax was suddenly mad money.

Shefwedfan

pippip wrote: »

Well if we take the BMW 520D, you'd a difference of 500 per year.

The bigger problem with the 2008 tax system was all of a sudden certain models of cars weren't even available unless you bought diesel.

Some petrol models were literally just wiped from the market! Nothing the public could really do about it as it.

The petrols got wiped from the market as nobody would buy them. Dealers across Ireland stopping bringing them in because they had no market. Those cars where still been sold in the UK. Even today some manufacturers dont have hybrids over here but sell in UK.

cadaliac

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The petrols got wiped from the market as nobody would buy them. Dealers across Ireland stopping bringing them in because they had no market. Those cars where still been sold in the UK. Even today some manufacturers dont have hybrids over here but sell in UK.

It all feeds into the same net result. No petrol cars were supplied to the customer, forcing the sale of a diesel, for whatever reason.
I remember the Mondeo being one such car for a while.

Gumbo

pippip wrote: »

Well if we take the BMW 520D, you'd a difference of 500 per year.

Not straight away you didn't.
We had 2 E60's in our house at the time. a 520d at €710 to tax for the year and a 535d at €1500 to tax. in 2008, those cars went to €390 and €750.

In the 520d there was only a saving of €320 but the 08 cars were fetching nearly 10k more :eek:

ELM327

kceire wrote: »

Not straight away you didn't.
We had 2 E60's in our house at the time. a 520d at €710 to tax for the year and a 535d at €1500 to tax. in 2008, those cars went to €390 and €750.

In the 520d there was only a saving of €320 but the 08 cars were fetching nearly 10k more :eek:

When I bought my first 535d, it was 10k cheaper than a model 18 months newer due to the 750 per year tax difference. Would take many years of ownership to claw back that 10k. Irish people are stupid when it comes to "cheap tax"... much as it annoyed me handing over 1494 p/a!

Idbatterim

Augeo wrote: »

A bit like folk jumping into EVs to save a few quid on petrol nowadays

This is not true. Diesel is marginally cheaper than petrol. More to go wrong. Electric is nearly free. Virtually no servicing or much to go wrong. There are colossal potential saving with electric. That was not the case with going from petrol to diesel , the primary reason to save a few euro on motor tax !

cnocbui

Idbatterim wrote: »

This is not true. Diesel is marginally cheaper than petrol. More to go wrong. Electric is nearly free. Virtually no servicing or much to go wrong. There are colossal potential saving with electric. That was not the case with going from petrol to diesel , the primary reason to save a few euro on motor tax !

EV's are still expensive compared to ICE cars so to get the whole lifetime ownership cost below an ice you have to be doing serious annual mileage for running cost savings to add up to the initial purchase price premium.

Shefwedfan

cnocbui wrote: »

EV's are still expensive compared to ICE cars so to get the whole lifetime ownership cost below an ice you have to be doing serious annual mileage for running cost savings to add up to the initial purchase price premium.

Not really




It does depend on what your budget is but a eGolf is similar money to a high end auto Golf.....

is_that_so

cnocbui wrote: »

You must be a politician. They penalised petrol vehicle ownership by increasing registration costs, the excise on petrol and the VRT on petrol cars, making diesels a cheaper option.

Nah, I'm not one to chase the 1c difference. I chose diesel because of its overall cheaper running costs for me. I do think that the current emissions-only approach to car tax needs to be reviewed, especially with the increasing uptake of electric.

is_that_so

Augeo wrote: »

Well folk went from 1.4 petrol Focus and Golfs etc as A4s were available for the low €30ks with cheap tax and greater mpg so the overall cost of running a new diesel A4, Passat etc etc became much more palatable for folk who drove smaller family ish cars previously.

I'd argue it's the prevalence of the PCP that has driven people to going well outside their ability to buy even more.

bazz26

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really




It does depend on what your budget is but a eGolf is similar money to a high end auto Golf.....

Isn't that because VW knocked 5k off them recently to shift them because they are now end of life?

Lets take the Hyundai Kona, petrol starts @ 21,495, diesel @ 23,495 and EV @ 38,130 including grants. That's a substantial price difference.

pwurple

cnocbui wrote: »

EV's are still expensive compared to ICE cars so to get the whole lifetime ownership cost below an ice you have to be doing serious annual mileage for running cost savings to add up to the initial purchase price premium.

You have this backwards. My leaf has easily paid for itself. We were spending 700 euro a year servicing the old car, 600 taxing it, and 50 quid a week in fuel. That is nearly 4K a year saved instantly, and the insurance dropped as well.

A secondhand leaf is about 10k at the moment.

That is only 2 and a bit years to pay for itself if your costs were like mine, and effectively start earning you money. I paid 18k for it brand new with the grants and scrappage almost 5 years ago, it has easily paid for itself and I would happily drive it another 10 years. Not a speck of trouble with it.


Low Lifetime ownership cost is one of the best things about the car.

Shefwedfan

bazz26 wrote: »

Isn't that because VW knocked 5k off them recently to shift them because they are now end of life?

Lets take the Hyundai Kona, petrol starts @ 21,495, diesel @ 23,495 and EV @ 38,130 including grants. That's a substantial price difference.

That’s why I said depends on budget, I bought second hand eGolf at similar money to a high spec auto Golf if the same year....

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

I'd argue it's the prevalence of the PCP that has driven people to going well outside their ability to buy even more.

Yeah...pcp was huge back in 08, 09, 10, 11 etc

cnocbui

pwurple wrote: »

You have this backwards. My leaf has easily paid for itself. We were spending 700 euro a year servicing the old car..

Really? I haven't spent that much on my Civic in 12 years (I do my own maintenance).

A Honda Jazz starts at 17,990. A leaf starts at 28,690. So a 10,700 difference in price. Assuming 15,000 km per year, and given it's stated combined fuel consumption and current price for petrol, it would cost 1,072 per year in fuel. so 10 years of fuel and driving for the Jazz to get it as expensive as the Leaf. The Jazz costs 200 a year in tax.

The Jazz has a 40L tank, so it's range is 784 km on a tank. The Leaf's range is 270 km

I have to admit I'm having difficulty not laughing at that range.

pwurple

cnocbui wrote: »

Really? I haven't spent that much on my Civic in 12 years (I do my own maintenance).

Well that’s hardly typical is it?

A Honda Jazz starts at 17,990. A leaf starts at 28,690.

New. Do you only buy new cars?

The Jazz has a 40L tank, so it's range is 784 km on a tank. The Leaf's range is 270 km

I have to admit I'm having difficulty not laughing at that range.

Why, Do you drive 784km a day? If so, sure, it’s not for you. But 90% of people in Ireland drive less than 250km per WEEK! We live on a tiny island. Where are you going?

Shefwedfan

cnocbui wrote: »

Really? I haven't spent that much on my Civic in 12 years (I do my own maintenance).

A Honda Jazz starts at 17,990. A leaf starts at 28,690. So a 10,700 difference in price. Assuming 15,000 km per year, and given it's stated combined fuel consumption and current price for petrol, it would cost 1,072 per year in fuel. so 10 years of fuel and driving for the Jazz to get it as expensive as the Leaf. The Jazz costs 200 a year in tax.

The Jazz has a 40L tank, so it's range is 784 km on a tank. The Leaf's range is 270 km

I have to admit I'm having difficulty not laughing at that range.

Most people don’t do their own maintenance, everyone I know get their car, no matter what age/mileage, checked over at least once a year. So that throws all your numbers out the window straight away

Also not sure why people have to use such unrealistic number when trying to make a point, a Jazz in its ass is going to do 784km on a tank, maybe 600km....it doesn’t really make a difference to your number so why bother???

Personally the fuel savings is one part, I find my electric car is a lot better drive compared to combustion engine equivalent...

Anyone can come up some numbers to make out their choice is better. Some people electric will suit,some people it won’t. Doesn’t matter in long run because give it 10 years you won’t have the choice....doing your own maintenance then will be out window as well.

zilog_jones

cnocbui wrote: »

The Jazz has a 40L tank, so it's range is 784 km on a tank. The Leaf's range is 270 km

I have to admit I'm having difficulty not laughing at that range.

And can you refuel your Jazz at home or at work? That's where comparing petrol vs. EV "range" like-for-like without any other considerations falls flat on its arse.

creedp

zilog_jones wrote: »

And can you refuel your Jazz at home or at work? That's where comparing petrol vs. EV "range" like-for-like without any other considerations falls flat on its arse.

That argument is fine if your driving world predominantly involves commuting to work. However, if you have a family and regularly drive distances beyond the range of an EV then yes it really is all bout the range. Now if you are not in a rush or if your family can stand the delays then certainly an EV is cheaper to run. After that the argument that an EV is better to drive is subjective .. certainly it is easier to drive but personally I prefer the more engaging drive of a manual ICE but then again that's my opinion

The Bishop Basher

zilog_jones wrote: »

And can you refuel your Jazz at home or at work? That's where comparing petrol vs. EV "range" like-for-like without any other considerations falls flat on its arse.

Not really..

You can easily refuel on route to work or home with multiple choices depending on which route you decide to take and no fear whatsoever of having to wait around because all the charging points are in use when you get there.

So the only argument falling flat on it's arse is yours.

I'm genuinely looking forward to making the switch but it won't be for a long time yet. My current mileage coupled with the fact that I do all my own maintenance and servicing (yes there are plenty of us who do) would make it uneconomical. But tbh it's really some of the threads in here that put me off the most.

When i read about people having to stay under 100kph and switch off the heating when the temp drops below 8 degrees outside to preserve their battery long enough to get home, i'm out.

I want hassle free driving and EV's just aren't there yet.

Idbatterim

Fair enough if you do your own servicing I do too. But many would struggle to open the bonnet , never mind service their car!

People mention range anxiety with ev and kids etc. when will that wear off ? When there is a thousand km range ev? In case you fancy doing a casual thousand km spin with the family ?

josip

Idbatterim wrote: »

Fair enough if you do your own servicing I do too. But many would struggle to open the bonnet , never mind service their car!

People mention range anxiety with ev and kids etc. when will that wear off ? When there is a thousand km range ev? In case you fancy doing a casual thousand km spin with the family ?

I'm back.
Did I hear someone asking about casual 1000km spins with the family?
What do you want you know?

cadaliac

Has anyone worked out the cost of charging their EV at home? Is there an average? Genuinely like to know ...
The argument of range is subjective and largely depends on personal circumstances, so I would not bother with that one.
If someone maintains their car at home, fine, but they are only saving a few hundered Euro over 1 calendar year. Tyres, brakes and suspension wear and tear is the same on all cars - so stating that there is zero maintenance on an EV is the stuff of fairies and Santa clause.

zilog_jones

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Not really..

You can easily refuel on route to work or home with multiple choices depending on which route you decide to take and no fear whatsoever of having to wait around because all the charging points are in use when you get there.

So the only argument falling flat on it's arse is yours.

But how often are you driving more than 784 km in one day? Never? That's where the comparison doesn't work.

How often are you driving over 270 km and not returning home in one day? I'd say it's about four times a year for me. Not many people are going to be driving over 200 km without taking a break anyway.

Sure there are limitations in the infrastructure, but an EV range of something like >700 km is largely unnecessary for most use cases. The application of that range is different to a petrol car.

I don't get your DIY maintenance argument either - an EV is pretty much the same as a normal car except with a zero-maintenance powertrain. You still have normal brakes, suspension, coolant system, etc., just a motor and battery that you don't need to touch (at most: the battery has a coolant circuit like an ICE).

josip

Answers inline below.

zilog_jones wrote: »

But how often are you driving more than 784 km in one day? Never? That's where the comparison doesn't work.

We do 5-10 784km+ days each year

zilog_jones wrote: »

How often are you driving over 270 km and not returning home in one day? I'd say it's about four times a year for me. Not many people are going to be driving over 200 km without taking a break anyway.

It's about 20 times per year for us.

zilog_jones wrote: »

Sure there are limitations in the infrastructure, but an EV range of something like >700 km is largely unnecessary for most use cases. The application of that range is different to a petrol car.

We also don't need diesel-like 800km+ range.
But we do need min 400km with roofbox and aircon, quick recharge times and working free chargers at non-Tesla prices.

We're definitely not the norm, but nor are we unique.

Old diesel

The need to stay under 100 km/hr and turn off heating is well on its way to being a thing of the past with 50 and 64 kwh cars.

I'll admit, I reckon the trips to fill up my diesel are a pain in the arse. I pass plenty of service stations but it's a pain to pull in and refuel. Sometimes I go maybe 12/14 days on a tank and it's great. Sometimes I fill up on a Thursday and have to fill again on Sunday night. It's a pain.

Having to plug in my car a few times a week either at home or at work and unplug the thing again afterwards I don't think would be any less of a pain to be honest.

The €3500 ish it takes to fuel the thing for 20k miles/annum isn't an issue for me as it's largely a work tool so it's not money out of my pocket so to speak. Loads of folk don't travel 20k miles /annum at 37mpg so for them the potential savings might not swing the EV for them either.

I'll go EV when it suits me or when I've no other choice........... much like the 90%+ of folk on the roads The day may never come also

I've an each to their own attitude to folk who reckon a €40k Kona, a just as cheap as a well specced ICE E Golf, a cheap Leaf or whatEVer else makes sense for them

Old diesel

The wider issue is that EVs or not......

We will all have to change how we live and work.

Doing 700 miles in a day in a fossil fuel car will be seen in years to come as unsustainable.

In the future we would need to look at why we need to make that journey.

Needing to do 600 miles in 10 hours to make the ferry in France will be seen as a luxury item.

You don't actually need to do it - so in future you wont do it


Btw - range extender technology is also doable for the users that actually NEED the 800 miles in a day capability.

Mazda are going to be offering this on their new EV.

The London taxi also has range extender tech.

The latter has 70 odd miles EV only range and can recharge as a normal EV.

But it also has a Volvo petrol engine that can act as a generator to the battery. This gives extra range and if required you can still top up with petrol to use the Volvo powered generator