Irish language revival

Diablo Verde

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Modh coinníollach.

Two words to explain why it won't be revived.

This is a bit of a lazy argument. It seems strange that the conditional tense in Spanish doesn't seem to put people off that language when it's just as complicated as the Irish version. The famous modh coinníollach is a piece of piss compared to the tuiseal ginideach in any case.

My Irish is OK and improving all the time because I enjoy it and make an effort with it. I definitely left school with a poor level, but I can say the same about French and German. I reckon I hear the language spoken around Dublin about once a month.

facehugger99

2 as 10

Johnny Jukebox

Can someone explain to my why some Gaeilgeoiri and the frithGhaeilgeoiri (antis) are always haggling over speaker numbers? What does that attempt to show, except maybe that people like the idea of being able to speak it? I don't see where that conversation could possibly end up, or what it is attempting to prove.

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

Haven't spoken a word since June 1980 and actively encourage my own kids to avoid.

How sad, why would you discourage children from learning any language or its literature?

Upforthematch

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Can someone explain to my why some Gaeilgeoiri and the frithGhaeilgeoiri (antis) are always haggling over speaker numbers? What does that attempt to show, except maybe that people like the idea of being able to speak it? I don't see where that conversation could possibly end up, or what it is attempting to prove.

Something to do with money?

Mrs OBumble

I hear it's handy to have if you ever need to phone Revenue or similar: phone the Irish-language number and you'll hardly be in a queue at all.

Speaking Irish once they answer is totally option, in most cases, too.

Fourier

My experience is that very few have a real command of Irish, as in let's say being capable of actually reading a novel. However I think it's very hard to attain that now considering the native speaking base is so low.

However this is true of all languages in Ireland. I remember a Spanish friend of mine speaking with final year degree students taking Spanish and he said their Spanish was alright but not where you'd expect somebody taking it as a degree to be. I think we have a poor ability in languages in general.

whisky_galore

Fourier wrote: »

I think we have poor ability in languages in general.

Almost all our media is Anglophone as well as the countries we emigrate to, by and large.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

And I still don't know what it actually is.

It's just the conditional tense. It's not much more complex than the French version, and certainly easier and more consistent than its English counterpart!

El Tarangu

Upforthematch wrote: »

Since you're fluent why are you speaking it so rarely?

Well, I don't really know that many other people who speak Irish well; and even if I meet someone who does speak Irish well, the chances are that there will be at least one person present who doesn't speak it, so it would be a bit impolite to conduct the conversation in Irish

French speakers where I live meet up to chat in French to keep up their skills. Ciorcal comhrá type of thing.

It's normal for people to converse in their first language with one another; the difference being that their are very few Irish speakers, even, where this would be the case.

Irish language music or book sellers would chat away to you as gaelainn if you're doing business with them....

This is not a situation many people would encounter in their day-to-day; I rarely speak to booksellers in English, nevermind Irish.

TheDiceMan2020

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

Igotadose

TheDiceMan2020 wrote: »

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

It's people like you what cause unrest.

KathleenGrant

briany wrote: »

For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

The Anglo-irish treaty negotiations that de Velera didn't even attend you mean???

KathleenGrant

TheDiceMan2020 wrote: »

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

How can you say it is no more and has ceased to be if people still speak it you eejit?

Del2005

So many posts and not one mention of Peig!

We spend a fortune on the language but very few understand it. While other countries have 4 year olds speaking multiple languages. Its a chusy number for some people and a waste of money for most. All official documents have to be printed in Irish yet some are never purchased, shows that even people who can read it don't bother.

Upforthematch

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well, I don't really know that many other people who speak Irish well; and even if I meet someone who does speak Irish well, the chances are that there will be at least one person present who doesn't speak it, so it would be a bit impolite to conduct the conversation in Irish

This is not a situation many people would encounter in their day-to-day; I rarely speak to booksellers in English, nevermind Irish.

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

Filmer Paradise

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's if they want to learn it, which they clearly don't. You can't force people to do anything.

People will go out of their way to learn and pay big money for cooking or playing the ukulele or whatever. All the resources are there, even online. Evening courses it's all out there, so the old excuse of 'ah shur they don't teach it proper' is a red herring imo.
Let's face it, they're not really arsed.

Best thing to do for the Irish language is ban it altogether, make it illegal.

They'll all want to learn it then!

That won't happen though because there's a whole 'Language Industry' out there now & it's been well established for 100 years at this stage.

A significant & very vocal minority are doing very well out of it the way it is & want to preserve their hobbyhorse/gravy train at all costs.

fryup

Genfella wrote: »

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

ya, that'll go down a treat :cool: you first

KathleenGrant

The best thing to do for the language is not to ban it but to make it non-compulsory. That will raise the standard of those who wish to learn it and stop the rest whinging about it.

El Tarangu

Upforthematch wrote: »

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

I mean, you're not wrong. But life is busy, and while a ciorcal comhrá sounds interesting enough in an abstract sense, the chances of me deciding to go to one of a particular evening are about as likely as me deciding to go see an art installation or a one-person play, or some other type of niche cultural event (not inconceivable, but not particularly likely, either).

I speak other languages (well, one other, bits and bobs of two others), and it's a lot easier to motivate myself to practice them, as they offer many more practical applications (many, many more speakers in other countries, career advancement, etc).

Upforthematch

Upforthematch wrote: »

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

Although I agree with the Lose it or Use it approach, are you kidding here re the Irish-language novels?

Apart from the classics, which a moderate reader would get through in a few months, there are precious few good novels written in the Irish language today.

My preferred bookshop is one of the few retailers that actually stock Irish books, and most of the newer books are dreadful garbage, often self-published or published by very low-budget publishers with (apparently) a low threshold for talent.

Reading material in modern Irish fiction is astoundingly bad, although things are better on the poetry side. That lack of talent is my greatest worry for the language, and not some census of how many people are speaking it.

BarryD2

Genfella wrote: »

We need to preserve our language and, when reunification occurs, aim to have at least 40% of the population as Irish-speaking.

Jesus wept. What are going to have - Gaelic Gulags to enforce your vision? I hate to tell you but this wee country is getting even further and further from the language as each year goes by. Some will choose to keep it as a hobby, a cultural pastime and why not, but that's as far as it'll ever go.

whisky_galore

KathleenGrant wrote: »

The best thing to do for the language is not to ban it but to make it non-compulsory. That will raise the standard of those who wish to learn it and stop the rest whinging about it.

Wont happen.
The language lobbyists won't have that. It'll drive down their (notional) numbers of speakers.
It won't go down well with the mini industry, people that keep students in Gaeltachts and the like.

briany

KathleenGrant wrote: »

The Anglo-irish treaty negotiations that de Velera didn't even attend you mean???

Excuse me, it was actually a series of pre-treaty talks held between George and Dev in July 1921, where the future relationship between Ireland and Britain was to be discussed.

KathleenGrant

whisky_galore wrote: »

Wont happen.
The language lobbyists won't have that. It'll drive down their (notional) numbers of speakers.
It won't go down well with the mini industry, people that keep students in Gaeltachts and the like.

Maybe not but when I am Minister that's what I would do. Numbers......people who can say barely more than 'an bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas" we need to redefine or measure what a speaker is.

BarryD2

whisky_galore wrote: »

Wont happen.
The language lobbyists won't have that. It'll drive down their (notional) numbers of speakers.
It won't go down well with the mini industry, people that keep students in Gaeltachts and the like.

The real props are artificial State supports - the advantages in the education and points system but particularly in the language requirement for certain state jobs. It's the State that drives the impetus to learn and provides the employment outlets. But a lot of this is divorced from the everyday life of ordinary citizens. It's largely a top down rather than bottom up approach.

El Tarangu

whisky_galore wrote: »

Wont happen.
The language lobbyists won't have that. It'll drive down their (notional) numbers of speakers.
It won't go down well with the mini industry, people that keep students in Gaeltachts and the like.

While there is some truth in what you are saying it doesn't really tell the whole story:

There are loads of people, who have never shown the slightest inclination to speak Irish themselves, who still feel that other people (i.e. children) should be obliged to learn the language. I believe that this sense of patriotic-duty-by-proxy would have a lot of non-Gaeilgeoirs resist any measure to make Irish optional after the Junior Cert, or non-compulsory altogether at second-level, or similar.

branie2

Seadh!

Upforthematch

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Although I agree with the Lose it or Use it approach, are you kidding here re the Irish-language novels?

Apart from the classics, which a moderate reader would get through in a few months, there are precious few good novels written in the Irish language today.

My preferred bookshop is one of the few retailers that actually stock Irish books, and most of the newer books are dreadful garbage, often self-published or published by very low-budget publishers with (apparently) a low threshold for talent.

Reading material in modern Irish fiction is astoundingly bad, although things are better on the poetry side. That lack of talent is my greatest worry for the language, and not some census of how many people are speaking it.

I wasn't commenting on the standard of irish language fiction (I'll leave that to the saineolaithe) just making the point that buying an irish language book is a good opportunity to have a chat in Irish.

The fact that publisher cois life is closing might back up your point though

whisky_galore

El Tarangu wrote: »

While there is some truth in what you are saying it doesn't really tell the whole story:

There are loads of people, who have never shown the slightest inclination to speak Irish themselves, who still feel that other people (i.e. children) should be obliged to learn the language. I believe that this sense of patriotic-duty-by-proxy would have a lot of non-Gaeilgeoirs resist any measure to make Irish optional after the Junior Cert, or non-compulsory altogether at second-level, or similar.

Would agree with that.

Saving the language, by leaving others to do the work of saving it.
The "someone should do something" school of thought.

Reati

If they is nothing I like more than a dole bashing or a traveller bashing thread, it's an Irish language bashing thread full of the same old myths.

Let me cut through them (I'm on my phone so it'll be brief) and save people a heap of time.

1. No its not thought badly by teachers or any worse than the other subjects. Many people learn a European language for 5/6 years yet few could pass a (CEFR) A2 level. You can't learn a language with a few classes here a week. The teaching method is the problem. Immersion is the only way to learn a language.

2.Wales and Ireland have very differnet language backgrounds. What worked there is unlikely to work here.

3. We don't spends billions and trillions on Irish esch year. We spend less than they budget for papers and pens in the Dáil each year (which is the biggest waste)

4. English is a better language to have. Shur its the langauge of business isn't it. Remember how we proudly told businesses in the UK, Ireland was the only English speaking country going to be left in Europe then most of them moved to mainland Europe anyway. Its because speaking English isn't some magic benefit anymore. There are only 1.7billion English as a secondary language speakers in the world. Many of them at c2 speaker level who can do the job as good if not better. Oh and most of them come with an advantage that they are bilingual so are already more attractive. Brain drain is our main language driven export. Train them up at expense of the Irish tax payer and ship them to the US, Canada or Australia where the good money is at.

5. Irish langauge material like books or news is hard to come by. Not true. Pretty much every bookshop I've visited had Irish langauge books. Even amazons UK site sells a bunch.

6. Its all Peigs fault. Musha, poor old Peig. It's a tough read even if your near fluent so getting kids to read it was a terrible idea. You can blame the government for that one. It'd rumored they actually reworded a ton to fit the stereotype of a typical Irish western women.

7. Its too hard to learn. It's really not, if you actually put the effort into it. It's just an excuse to say it's too hard. Learning any language is not going to be easy, especially for monoglots.

8. Last but not least, the Irish language is dying or dead etc it's not. The language is everywhere if you listen. I've heard it used several times today by people in my workplace, some people in Dunnes all in Dublin. It has survived invasions, plantations, attempts to wipe it out, famines, civil and World wars and it will survive all of us.

It's our language but it's everyone's choice to embrace it or leave it behind them after school. The OP is a troll though.