Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

20silkcut

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I refer you back to a post I made a few minutes ago, most people in Ireland simply don't understand the Brexiteer mindset.

It’s not a mindset that engenders much sympathy in terms of a freedom struggle.

To say they are oppressed is a joke and an insult quite frankly.

There are people drowning in rubber boats in the Mediterranean every day trying to get into the EU.
There were people shot to death on the streets of Kiev a few years ago for supporting better relations with the EU.

That is real oppression.
No brexiteer is oppressed. Ridiculous.
And their overly negative attitude to the EU is peculiar to them in terms of its scale and difficult to understand and really not worthy of understanding because most of it is based on lies.
Most of the oppression nonsense was invented post Salzburg when the EU had the audacity to make it clear that they were going to protect their interests.
Brexiteers cannot and will not understand that the EU is not going to destroy itself to give Britain what it wants.
And they cannot understand the passion behind that. As I said before I am happy to see the EU protect its interests up to and including the probable destruction of an industry in which I make my living. The vast majority of the EU 27 do not want to see the brexiteers get their way.
That’s probably the number 1 uniting factor in all this.

FartyBlartFast

fly_agaric wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe so, but try telling that to the Brexiteers.

I think I understand. The Brexiteers are cry-bullies.
The victim who is simultaneously the aggressor.

They dish out insulting hyperbole (slaves and masters, fighting for freedom, Nazis and Soviets) and scream blue murder when anyone is just somewhat rude back to them (e.g. Tusk and his "cherry picking" joke).

This is the new* 'right' side of the political spectrum in much of the world.

Spoiled children throwing their toys out of the pram whenever they don't get their way. Only the real problem is "getting their way" involves throwing their toys out of the pram, at anyone and everyone near them. And then they moan and whinge that its everyone else's fault that they have no toys left in their pram, because everyone else made them throw those toys.

I would say alt right since they were so eager to rake that moniker back around 2015-16, but they would just cry and whinge about it not being fair to call then what they called themselves, because now we all know what the alt right is.

Spanish Eyes

England and Wales can do Brexit if they wish, the rest of the so called Union want nothing to do with it. But cannot extricate themselves from it.

Such a mess.

MrMusician18

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes it's worth remembering that if you replace the nationality; British with Irish, the "opposition"; EU with British and the year; 2016 with 1916, it can be seen that history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
For those that do not understand the (Brexiteer) British attitude towards the EU, they may get an inkling if they think about it in this way.

It might go some way to getting the feeling they feel but fundamentally there is little or no similarity so doesn't give us and understanding. The Irish were subjugated for centuries and treated with brutality and distain in equal measure. The grievance the Irish held was both understandable and legitimate.

This can be contrasted to the grievance the brexiters feel which are either largely invented in their own heads (they're taking our identity) or not the fault of the EU at all (there are no jobs here because of the EU). I think to really understand Brexit you need to see it as a manifestation of the push back against the liberal agenda (i.e. the rise of the populist right) that had been driven in Western society for the last 30 or so years, particularly the dafter things that have emerged on the last few years.

The parallels and contrasts with Ireland in the 1920s are interesting though. Ireland did leave the the UK with a withdrawal agreement and somewhat of a transition period. It was also widely expected that the Irish state would fall and would be back in the UK within a matter of years.

Laois_Man

After todays Irish Government update on preparations for Brexit, I had a browse around the internet and found some places where Brexiteers were gloating about how Ireland are about to get its comeuppance when no-deal Brexit happens

See when the British experts say it's gonna be a disaster for Britain, it's "project fear"

But when experts say it's terrible for Ireland, it's "Hahahahaha - we love it"


Right, got it!!

BonnieSituation

blackcard wrote: »

Brexit: Behind closed doors on Rte now is explosive stuff. I am surprised at the access given to cameras and how undiplomatic some of the EU officials were

Where were you and your outrage when it was originally broadcast by a month or so ago?

Strazdas

Laois_Man wrote: »

After todays Irish Government update on preparations for Brexit, I had a browse around the internet and found some places where Brexiteers were gloating about how Ireland are about to get its comeuppance when no-deal Brexit happens

See when the British experts say it's gonna be a disaster for Britain, it's "project fear"

But when experts say it's terrible for Ireland, it's "Hahahahaha - we love it"


Right, got it!!

They can't handle bad news about or criticism of their project. Facts become meaningless, as they are not even listening.

It really is a religious cult at this stage.

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of investment that they refuse to write off more like it.

They don't have to choose between keeping their investments in the UK and writing them off. Robotic and automated assembly lines can be relocated realtively easily.

So, yeah, the production of the electric mini could have been relocated, e.g. to the Netherlands, where the convertible mini is already produced.

I suspect that part of the thinking here is that BMW will be hoping that the electric mini will lead a revival of Mini sales in the US, and since there is no EU/US trade deal, relocating to Europe would offer no advantage in the US market, and might detract from the quintessentially English branding of the Mini in the US market.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like some car manufacturers have decided to remain in the UK after all.

With some caveats however:

The new bit of the electric Mini - the drivetrain - will be produced in Bavaria, before being brought to Cowley to be added into the car.

When asked if that meant the company would still be producing cars in the country in 10 years' time, he said: "It is impossible to see that far ahead.

Earlier that year, though, its chief executive had warned that the company needed to remain "flexible" about its production facilities because of Brexit uncertainty.

I see a big caveat sitting in there dependent on how Brexit goes because of all those imports / export requirements there.

sandbelter

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I. It was also widely expected that the Irish state would fall and would be back in the UK within a matter of years.

We were very nearly stillborn...my Grand Dad was a tax commissioner at independence and told us the UK basically stripped every asset it could put its hands on arguing it was "theirs they paid for it", the result Dublin had no money to pay its first wage bill....if it hadn't been for the Russian's allowing us to pawn their crown jewels..the economy would have collapsed at the first hurdle. The money paid the first wage bill and got the economy started....the rest is history and we repaid the Russians their loan.

I raise this because if Scotland ever becomes independent, we should be mindful that Edinburgh could find itself in the same position as Dublin was in 1922..and be prepared to help them out.

That what happens when you become independent...its a very different scenario from UK and Brexit.

Akrasia

Peregrinus wrote: »

They don't have to choose between keeping their investments in the UK and writing them off. Robotic and automated assembly lines can be relocated realtively easily.

So, yeah, the production of the electric mini could have been relocated, e.g. to the Netherlands, where the convertible mini is already produced.

I suspect that part of the thinking here is that BMW will be hoping that the electric mini will lead a revival of Mini sales in the US, and since there is no EU/US trade deal, relocating to Europe would offer no advantage in the US market, and might detract from the quintessentially English branding of the Mini in the US market.

The short answer to all of these questions is that car manufacturers will make their decision based on cost/benefit analysis. After a no deal brexit, manufacturing for export to the EU becomes much less profitable from the UK, but some niche manufacturing can still be justified.

It's a bit like how Ireland can pretend to claim to have a profitable textiles industry because we still have a few woolen mills making Aran jumpers for America n tourists

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To clarify, are you defending Brexit on the basis that some manufacturers haven't pulled out yet?

No, just making the point that not every business is abandoning ship.

The possibility of a no deal Brexit has just been reduced by new legislation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48930417
MPs have voted by the thinnest of margins for a process that would make it more difficult for a future prime minister to prorogue Parliament.
Tory MP Dominic Grieve wanted to amend the Northern Ireland Bill to stop a future PM forcing through a no-deal Brexit by suspending Parliament.
His amendment - to require ministers to regularly report on the situation in Northern Ireland - passed by one vote.
It could provide a tool for MPs to block a no-deal Brexit in October.

Lackadaisical

The fact that suspending parliament is even under consideration is beyond shocking. The UK isn't a presidential democracy with parliament being a check and balance on the executive. It's a full parliamentary democracy. If they were to suspend parlement, they're walking into an unprecedented constitutional crisis.

Call me Al

blackcard wrote: »

Brexit: Behind closed doors on Rte now is explosive stuff. I am surprised at the access given to cameras and how undiplomatic some of the EU officials were

Have they called their UK counterparts turds yet? Or told the Irish to know their place in the negotiations?There are just two flies of many in the ointment in your assessment of EU diplomacy.

Nody

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The fact that suspending parliament is even under consideration is beyond shocking. The UK isn't a presidential democracy with parliament being a check and balance on the executive. It's a full parliamentary democracy. If they were to suspend parlement, they're walking into an unprecedented constitutional crisis.

To be honest at this stage not really; I'm sure if someone could make a half decent idea out of a satanic ritual to make Brexit happen there would be politicians lining up to help at this stage. It's as Confucius said:

When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.

The goal (Brexit) is the only fixed target; anything and everything to get there is acceptable.

Lackadaisical

John Major has said he'll take legal action seeking a judicial review of any granting of a suspension of parliament and plenty of others will be lining up to do likewise.

There's even a plan that parliament will just meet elsewhere, if it can't meet at Westminster.

You're looking at a country that's beginning to tear itself to shreds.

It's also likely that if the PM asks to suspend parliament the Queen will just grant it, effectively proving the monarchy has no real constitutional role at all and is just a ceremonial rubber-stamping service.

InTheShadows

blackcard wrote: »

Brexit: Behind closed doors on Rte now is explosive stuff. I am surprised at the access given to cameras and how undiplomatic some of the EU officials were

Extremely undiplomatic. Something like that will hopefully to massive damage to how the EU are still viewed in the UK.

BonnieSituation

InTheShadows wrote: »

Extremely undiplomatic. Something like that will hopefully to massive damage to how the EU are still viewed in the UK.

The EU are carrying on like Soviet Russia eh?

Peregrinus

InTheShadows wrote: »

Extremely undiplomatic. Something like that will hopefully to massive damage to how the EU are still viewed in the UK.

Well, not really. When the EU is openly compared to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union by British politicians, all but the terminally dim will have realised that it's quite likely that on the EU side some less than charitable language is likely to have been used about the UK in response. So the revelation that this has indeed happened isn't likely to change anybody's mind about anything.

Nody

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, not really. When the EU is openly compared to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union by British politicians, all but the terminally dim will have realised that it's quite likely that on the EU side some less than charitable language is likely to have been used about the UK in response. So the revelation that this has indeed happened isn't likely to change anybody's mind about anything.

Except you forget this is the UK; you know the country that thinks it's the special cookie in the jar and have exceptions to everything because, well, they are special. Hence I'd not be surprised if they get offended by being treated the same way; how dare the EU do something like that! How rude! The fact their politicians have called EU far worse and for years does not count because that was Farage, or this or that excuse.

blackcard

BonnieSituation wrote: »

blackcard wrote: »

Brexit: Behind closed doors on Rte now is explosive stuff. I am surprised at the access given to cameras and how undiplomatic some of the EU officials were

Where were you and your outrage when it was originally broadcast by a month or so ago?

Didn't realise it was a repeat. I said that I was surprised, I definitely wasn't outraged as I agree with many of the sentiments but didn't think that they would be expressed on camera

Lackadaisical

blackcard wrote: »

Didn't realise it was a repeat. I said that I was surprised, I definitely wasn't outraged as I agree with many of the sentiments but didn't think that they would be expressed on camera

Transparency? They're not trying to spin, be two faced and hide. Why pretend? What's it going to achieve?

ambro25

InTheShadows wrote: »

Extremely undiplomatic. Something like that will hopefully to massive damage to how the EU are still viewed in the UK.

And, after the last 3 decades of ignominously-misleading anti-EU headlines in UK red tops, and the last 3+ years of jingoistic anti-EU rethoric by an ever-broader set of ever-more mainstream British politicians all after out-Brexiting each other...

...the EU27 should care about such further 'massive damage' because?

Professor Moriarty

Lackadaisical wrote: »

John Major has said he'll take legal action seeking a judicial review of any granting of a suspension of parliament and plenty of others will be lining up to do likewise.

There's even a plan that parliament will just meet elsewhere, if it can't meet at Westminster.

You're looking at a country that's beginning to tear itself to shreds.

It's also likely that if the PM asks to suspend parliament the Queen will just grant it, effectively proving the monarchy has no real constitutional role at all and is just a ceremonial rubber-stamping service.

She can refuse to prorogue parliament and I wouldn't dismiss the notion.

Igotadose

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

She can refuse to prorogue parliament and I wouldn't dismiss the notion.

That'd be dramatic if it happened. I wouldn't put it past Elizabeth either, she's got some spine and put her life on the line for the UK during WWII. Her actions would shut up the kind of Brexiteer mentioned in that article yammering on about WWII.

Lackadaisical

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

She can refuse to prorogue parliament and I wouldn't dismiss the notion.

It's regarded as highly unlikely that she won't just do what she's told. She's very likely constitutional power to go against the advice of a prime minister.

Professor Moriarty

Igotadose wrote: »

That'd be dramatic if it happened. I wouldn't put it past Elizabeth either, she's got some spine and put her life on the line for the UK during WWII. Her actions would shut up the kind of Brexiteer mentioned in that article yammering on about WWII.

Apparently if she believes that it's been done for the wrong reasons then she can refuse. The optics of Old Etonian English nationalists in an impasse with the Queen would a sight to behold.

Lackadaisical

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Deleted post.

Well effectively the UK's constitutional monarchy stems from a civil war that nearly ended the monarchy. The Queen arguably has far more power in her other realms, as was shown when her governor general dismissed the Australian PM back in 1974. The monarchy has far less power domestically.

Although since they're ripping up the constitution anyway, she might as well just make it up as she goes along. Everyone else seems to be!

Professor Moriarty

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Well effectively the UK's constitutional monarchy stems from a civil war that nearly ended the monarchy. The Queen arguably has far more power in her other realms, as was shown when her governor general dismissed the Australian PM back in 1974. The monarchy has far less power domestically.

Although since they're ripping up the constitution anyway, she might as well just make it up as she goes along. Everyone else seems to be!

Yes indeed. History has a lot to teach. Let's hope she doesn't lose the head metaphorically and literally.