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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,016 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I’ll get shot for this but the timing of the whole labour anti semitism thing is highly suspect and came when brexit negotiations were really fraught aka not going the way Britain expected.
    None of the supposed anti semites have been named our right have they? Not that I’ve heard personally.
    It’s always corbyns fault.

    That stinks to high heaven.

    The antisemitism thing has persisted for some time now. I get your point and highlighting the coincidence is not an unreasonable thing to do. However, the way they handled the Ken Livingstone affair, not to mention the business of Shami Chakrabarti's "Everything's ok" inquiry and ending up with a peerage looks a lot more suspicious to me.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    trellheim wrote: »
    Getting back to direct effects of No-Deal

    Strip out local food and veg and bakeries. What effect does a No-Deal have on Tesco and Marks and Spencer

    its going to wreck their JIT among a bunch of other things

    Tesco source a lot of stuff here.

    M&S though..all British produce. You’d wonder are they gonna shut up shop here and leave


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    The antisemitism thing has persisted for some time now. I get your point and highlighting the coincidence is not an unreasonable thing to do. However, the way they handled the Ken Livingstone affair, not to mention the business of Shami Chakrabarti's "Everything's ok" inquiry and ending up with a peerage looks a lot more suspicious to me.

    It's even worse. Labour sent solicitors' letters to former Labour employees threatening legal action if they spoke publicly about antisemitism in the Labour party. This is Corbyn's Labour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,994 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Corbyn has to go if Labour's new position has any chance of working.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Official government contingency plan for Brexit here:

    Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union Contingency Action Plan
    Update July 2019


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    It's a remarkably perfect storm, but I don't know that it's a deliberate one, rather there's been a lot of stuff simmering away for years.

    1. Tory Party internal mess (that's going on for decades).
    2. Labour Party internal mess (going on for decades - permanent struggle between Old Labour and New Labour). The antisemitism issue is yet another example of dysfunctional internal problems.
    3. Parliamentary arithmetic that brought the DUP into a situation where they're powerbrokers in Westminster.
    4. Collapse of the Northern Ireland assembly, without any prospects of it being restored anytime soon.
    5. The election of Donald Trump which is stoking populism in the UK (and elsewhere) and he's poking around in British political affairs directly now too.
    6. The Hong Kong situation is likely to bring the UK into diplomatic conflict with China.
    7. The cable leak has brought the UK into diplomatic conflict with Trump.
    8. The seizure of the Iranian vessel at Gibraltar has thrown a huge spanner into the diplomacy with Spain.
    9... many many other issues all convolving around Brexit.

    Then you had the backdrop of the 2008 credit crunch which probably was the spark the lit the fire in the first place. There was plenty of kindling around but that's when you really started to see things shifting as the Tories pushed out austerity policies and as the British population, despite having a massive meltdown and having to bail out and nationals banks, seem to think that the whole thing was 'the Eurozone crisis'...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,394 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Lisa O'Carroll of the Guardian is disputing the Bloomberg story :

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1148569336979886085

    I read earlier that a 'source' from the Irish government had said that the Bloomberg story was bollox.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,394 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    trellheim wrote: »
    Strip out local food and veg and bakeries. What effect does a No-Deal have on Tesco and Marks and Spencer

    its going to wreck their JIT among a bunch of other things

    Tesco as it is already sources a lot of their goods from Ireland where they can. Where they will have an issue is with with their own brand stuff, for minor reasons such as labelling. The factories and suppliers they use will already have a run of, or a backlog of labelling, which won't have the required EU labelling if they leave without a deal. The factories and suppliers won't dump that, they'll let it run out before changing, so there'll be a period in which some stuff will be scarce, even if it's made in the EU.

    When it comes to sourcing non food goods, they won't be any different than the other retailers in Ireland.

    M&S will have more hassle and they don't do any brands that aren't their own do they?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Right or wrong, perception is everything and Labour continues to be perceived and portrayed as antisemitic.


    It is perceived as antisemitic because it is portrayed as antisemitic day-in day-out by the clique who run the UK press, when they aren't running anonymous stories reporting "high ranked" civil servants doubting Corbyn's fitness to serve on health grounds.


    It is 100% grade A propaganda, and even the Guardian, supposedly the major left wing newspaper, is right at the front of it.


    Guess where the editor of the Guardian went to University?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    Hurrache wrote: »

    M&S will have more hassle and they don't do any brands that aren't their own do they?

    Tesco Ireland's effectively an entirely different operation to Tesco UK. They'll struggle a little with some of their own-brand UK-made food items, but they're big enough to be able to change souring quite rapidly. Same issues would apply to Super Valu and Dunnes. Non-food is relatively easy to replace with continental equivalents. It could actually be a big boon for local producers of own-brand products too as there'll be a lot of like-for-like replacement of UK products.

    Aldi and Lidl actually source quite a lot of stuff in the UK due to similar tastes, but that could change rapidly and they're very nimble and light.

    M&S clothing will be fine as almost none of it is manufactured in the UK. They'd just need to ship it directly to their Irish stores. Their grocery side is likely in big trouble though as they more or less import everything. They've a narrow range of local products, mostly meat and some dairy but that's about it.

    I could see M&S just closing the grocery stores if they can't figure out a solution. They're not big enough to solve it independently as a small group of Irish stores and they've really no international presence anymore outside the UK.

    It would very much depend on what happens with tariffs and regulatory alignment, but it's quite possible they might end up in big trouble.

    Most other UK chains don't sell all that many UK products or they would be able to easily adapt e.g. Boots, most of the UK clothing retailers etc would tend to have mostly non-UK suppliers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,394 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    With the whole every country in the union shouldn't be treated any differently coming from the Tories and the DUP during Brexit, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out later.
    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1148614175842807809


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    Hurrache wrote: »
    With the whole every country in the union shouldn't be treated any differently coming from the Tories and the DUP during Brexit, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out later.
    https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1148614175842807809

    The main issue is that if it passes, they can expect the DUP to throw an absolutely enormous tantrum and, who knows, they might even refuse to back a new PM.
    Maybe the perfect storm might become an imperfect one?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Hurrache wrote: »
    M&S will have more hassle and they don't do any brands that aren't their own do they?
    Some or all of their baked in-store bread is supplied by an Irish company. In the UK they're supplied by the UK arm of that company.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,394 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Tesco Ireland's effectively an entirely different operation to Tesco UK. They'll struggle a little with some of their own-brand items, but they're big enough to be able to change souring quite rapidly.

    Which is why I brought up the labelling issue. Despite say sourcing some food stuffs from the EU for their own brand goods, the issue that will trip them is the labelling. It's not just an issue with products made in the UK, it will arise with goods made in the EU due to labelling requirements.

    I can't remember the exact details as it's a while since I saw documents about it, but basically you see the likes of "Packed in the UK for Tesco UK&I, Llewellyn Garden City", or "Produced in the UK for Tesco UK&I, Llewellyn Garden City". Both of these were fine while in the UK is in the EU, but once that changes they can't sell that product in the EU, even if it's produced in the EU, based on how they currently label products.

    They won't change suppliers if there's no issue with sourcing the goods from that factory if it's in the EU as it's "just" a labelling change that's required. So the choice is to either let the current stock of either products already labelled, or the labels their suppliers already have ready to go, run out. The alternative is either Tesco or their supplier take the financial hit of dumping the labelling.

    The latter won't happen so there'll be a delay until they actually know what happens with terms of what kind of leave is going to happen and the new labelling is ready to go.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Which is why I brought up the labelling issue. Despite say sourcing some food stuffs from the EU for their own brand goods, the issue that will trip them is the labelling. It's not just an issue with products made in the UK, it will arise with goods made in the EU due to labelling requirements.

    They won't change suppliers if there's no issue with sourcing the goods from that factory if it's in the EU, but there will be legal changes to the labelling required. So the choice is to either let the current stock of either products already labelled or the labels their suppliers already have ready to go run out, or either Tesco or their supplier take the financial hit of dumping the labelling.

    The latter won't happen so there'll be a delay until they actually know what happens with terms of what kind of leave is going to happen and the new labelling is ready to go.

    As far as I’m aware all they have to do is repackage the product here in order to be able to say it’s from here.
    It’s been happening with meat and veg for ages.

    Spuds from Israel stopped selling here so They get repackaged up north and sold here as Irish. That’s anecdotal but it was only this past year.

    There’s huge loopholes in Irish law, as much as we’re screaming about all things food wrt Brexit


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,394 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    As far as I’m aware all they have to do is repackage the product here in order to be able to say it’s from here.
    It’s been happening with meat and veg for ages.

    Spuds from Israel stopped selling here so They get repackaged up north and sold here as Irish. That’s anecdotal but it was only this past year.

    There’s huge loopholes in Irish law, as much as we’re screaming about all things food wrt Brexit

    Yes, but what happens the current labels? This is my point, it's the simple things that get you. They're not going to employ a bunch of people to remove the current labels and send them back from relabelling, nor are they going to compensate the factories to dump the massive amount of labelling they already have waiting to go and buy a bunch of new ones, not yet knowing what's going to happen.

    So the obvious thing that will happen is they'll just wait for the existing labels to be all used up in the packaging plants and for the products to be sold in the UK before they have their new labelling ready to go.

    The FSAI have already been quite active in dealing with retailers and suppliers on this, https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/brexit.html
    https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/brexit/labelling.html
    Do prepacked foods have to provide an EU address?
    Yes. The rules regarding the labelling of food within the EU are set out in Regulation (EU) No. 1169/2011 on the provision of food information to consumers. This legislation specifies that the provision of the name and EU address of the food business operator responsible for the food within the EU is obligatory. This name and address can be either:

    the operator in the EU under whose name or business name the food is marketed or
    if that operator is not established in the EU, the name and address of the importer into the EU market must be indicated on the label.
    In the case of a ‘no deal Brexit’ the UK will immediately upon leaving be considered a ‘third country’ under EU legislation and therefore a UK address alone will not be sufficient. Food placed on the EU market must have an EU contact address.
    .....
    .....
    Will overlay stickers be permitted on a temporary basis to amend labels?
    The use of overlay stickers on a temporary basis would be permitted on prepacked food for a short time frame whilst awaiting new packaging. The overlay stickers should not be easy to remove and traceability of the product must be maintained. The use of such stickers must ensure that food information provided on a label is in compliance with EU food law in particular that all mandatory information is easily visible, clearly legible and, where appropriate, indelible. Mandatory information cannot be hidden or obscured. The overlay stickers should not be easy to remove.

    In the examples I gave, Tesco for example uses their UK contact address on their labelling.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Hurrache wrote: »
    Yes, but what happens the current labels? This is my point, it's the simple things that get you. They're not going to employee a bunch of people to remove the current labels and send them back from relabelling, nor are they going to compensate the factories to dump the massive amount of labelling they already have waiting to go and buy a bunch of new ones, not yet knowing what's going to happen.

    So the obvious thing that will happen is they'll just wait for the existing labels to be all used up in the packaging plants and for the products to be sold in the UK before they have their new labelling ready to go.

    This is the minutiae stuff that gets overlooked. But you can bet your last euro the companies involved especially the smaller ones in border regions are already on a workaround!
    Heard something about the food supply chain between Ireland and Britain. Certain meats can cross the Irish Sea up to three times before it ends up on shelves. (Think that was chicken in particular?)
    Leaves here goes to uk for processing. Comes back for coating , goes back over for packaging then back here for sale.

    Chips and potato products same thing. This was on radio one I think. Cant remember the show but it was frightening given how tied into them and us we are. That all might be about to go


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    It is perceived as antisemitic because it is portrayed as antisemitic day-in day-out by the clique who run the UK press, when they aren't running anonymous stories reporting "high ranked" civil servants doubting Corbyn's fitness to serve on health grounds.


    It is 100% grade A propaganda, and even the Guardian, supposedly the major left wing newspaper, is right at the front of it.


    Guess where the editor of the Guardian went to University?

    And yet Corbyn's Labour has lost three peers today. That's not media bias. That's a fact. Corbyn's Labour tried to gag ex staff from speaking about antisemitism in Labour by threatening legal action. That's not media bias. That's a fact. If Labour were a PLC the shareholders would have dumped him two years ago for gross mismanagement.

    The Guardian is very much pro Labour. The fact that it thinks Corbyn's race is run doesn't mean anything other than they know what reality is. The editor's parents were teachers. What am I to make of that? What's the fact that someone goes to Oxford got to do with anything? I think Corbyn is a waste of time and I didn't go to Oxford...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    It is perceived as antisemitic because it is portrayed as antisemitic day-in day-out by the clique who run the UK press, when they aren't running anonymous stories reporting "high ranked" civil servants doubting Corbyn's fitness to serve on health grounds.


    It is 100% grade A propaganda, and even the Guardian, supposedly the major left wing newspaper, is right at the front of it.


    Guess where the editor of the Guardian went to University?

    It's absolutely propaganda, because if anti sematism was a real issue, where were the likes of the guardian investigating it until Corbyn got the leadership? Isn't Miliband of Jewish heritage?

    They've been flinging mud at him and this is the only thing that's kinda stuck (since they've been relentlessly pushing it). If someone like Starmer gets the leadership, watch how the antisemitism problem will melt away without anything real being done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,864 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

    MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



    https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz

    MPs have voted resoundingly to extend same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland, a plan the government has said it will honour despite ministerial doubts.

    The Commons voted 383 to 73 to pass the amendment to a largely technical bill on the stalled Northern Ireland assembly, tabled by the Labour MP Conor McGinn, a longstanding campaigner for equal marriage in Northern Ireland.
    MPs will vote later on another amendment to the bill to extend abortion rights to Northern Ireland, tabled by the Labour MP Stella Creasy.

    The government has long argued that both issues are devolved matters and should not be imposed on Northern Ireland by Westminster. But McGinn and Creasy say the fact the assembly and executive have been suspended since January 2017 amid political deadlock means action must be taken.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

    MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



    https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz

    I'm assuming they voted against.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    It will be interesting to see the DUP's take on this

    MP's have voted to extend SSM to Northern Ireland and will later vote on abortion rights.



    https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/NBrMz



    This is amazing :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Abortion legislation also passed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    It has passed in Westminster.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/same-sex-marriage-coming-to-north-if-new-stormont-executive-not-formed-by-october-21st-1.3951640

    Strange to see the UK parliament changing NI Law, not something i'm in favour of really, but in this circumstance, it's a good thing.
    The amendment was tabled by Conor McGinn, who is from Armagh. His mother worked in the NHS, his father was a Sinn Fein councillor.
    Despite how it was done, good for equality in NI and I'm sure the DUP will be furious - another reason to be happy with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,444 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Yahoo claiming: Food shortages and job losses - Ireland warns of 'dire' consequences of no-deal Brexit

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ireland-warns-dire-consequences-no-deal-brexit-153828329.html

    But i saw nothing in the article about food shortages, nor in the report..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,949 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    DUP would have to be seen to withdraw support after that date if not immediately to avoid throwing tens of thousands of hard-line votes to Jim Allister. And with FPTP for Westminster that's dangerous


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    I listened to the Commons debate on SSM and Abortion. Conor McGinn Labour MP originally from NI did a very good job on how it is worded in that if Stormont isn't back before 31st October the two Bills come into operation. There was a free vote and it was something like 300+ v. 70 for SSM and 300 or so v. 90 for abortion.


    The DUP are between a rock and a hard place on this one - get back into Stormont or HoC will sort out the legislation. One of the DUP MPs said he had a couple of hundred emails rejecting abortion in NI over the last few days - with 60 or 70% from women.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    So odd how international diplomacy between the UK and US is now conducted through Twitter.
    Jeremy Hunt is now addressing Trump directly on Twitter - saying Ambassador stays if he is PM.

    I was just thinking RE: Kuennsberg earlier - she should really be the BBC Social Media expert, she seems to be on Twitter 24/7 - does it leave any time for anything else? She's like a gossip queen, provides very shallow analysis.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    How does this work?

    And how do the DUP now come out and say they don’t respect and will not allow Westminster to implement these decisions on them?

    Brexit just got even more soap opera bizarre :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55,762 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    Anything that upsets DUP is good in my book.

    Would love to see the look Foster's face when Westminster voted for abortion and SSM in NI


This discussion has been closed.
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