"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Paddy Cow

Tazzimus wrote: »

Yeah his powers in the show seem to be a bit different to the books.
Book Bran used the trees to see, hence having trouble in the south where they were turned into firewood.

Show Bran can see without them, except when the plot needs him not to.

Witcher wrote: »

He can see without them in the books too as Bloodraven told him.

In the show he needed the trees to see at first. He grabbed a tree in the CotF cave. He also needed Meera to drag him to a tree to plug himself in. I think once he fully became the TER he doesn't rely on the trees once he's learned to control it.

Weepsie

spacecoyote wrote: »

Problem would be, if you miss, you'll have a very pi$$ed off dragon, and Cersei directly in the line of fire, rather than tucked away in the Red Keep where she assumed she'd be safe

That's the best reasoning for not doing it. But they had 7 lined up on one side, possibly another 7 on the other.They could nearly have been shooting them in such a way while reloading that they were getting shots off constantly.

I know I'm looking too much into this. Sure they could've fired one at Dany and done us all a favour.

Sleepy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They had to have Rhaegal die otherwise Jon would have been riding him into battle and no way would Jon have gone on a burn them all spree. You could see how appalled Jon was at Dany's actions but there was fcuk all he could do about it on the streets.

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Sure, it'd be a "convenient" way of keeping him alive but it'd still amount to better story-telling than what we're being slopped up at the moment.

Unpossible

Sleepy wrote: »

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Or Jon is still on Rhaegal when he's hit, Dany thinks they are both lost. Its later revealed Jon survived.

Star Lord

With regard to Danaerys taking out the Iron Fleet/Scorpions on the walls, I thought it was pretty apparent that she'd deliberately tried to adapt a different flying pattern that would make it hard for them to target them with any efficiency, swooping in from the sun first, then keeping low, sharp turns, keeping varying it, and tackling them that way. The speed with which she went 'Mad Queen' was irritating, and totally a result of the compressed schedule for the show this season, where to do it justice they'd have needed the same length of episodes, but the full 10 episodes. This was always how she was going to go, but the turn into it was a bit too sharp and not given enough time to feel like an gradually accelerating slide into madness!

Disappointed with Jaime, but in fairness, the signs that he'd do anything for her, no matter what were always writ large, we just didn't want to see them.

Was also pissed when following Danaerys' onslaught, Greyworm started killing soldiers who had surrendered too.

Paddy Cow

Sleepy wrote: »

Easily handled. Have Jon dismount as the bells begin to ring, striding towards the Red Keep to accept Cersei's surrender / ensure his troops don't pillage the capital they've fought to "liberate" / attend to a wounded ally or whatever. As soon as he's clear, have the first scorpion bolt hit Rhaegal.

Sure, it'd be a "convenient" way of keeping him alive but it'd still amount to better story-telling than what we're being slopped up at the moment.

Dany took out all the scorpions before they surrendered.

Lone Stone

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

Twenty Grand

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Dany took out all the scorpions before they surrendered.

All but one.

Unpossible wrote: »

Or Jon is still on Rhaegal when he's hit, Dany thinks they are both lost. Its later revealed Jon survived.

Jon is thrown into the streets.

Takes on Aryas role of wandering a burning city.
Sees the devastation and turns on Dany.

PopePalpatine

Lone Stone wrote: »

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

I need a flagon of milk of the poppy.

The White Wolf

Lone Stone wrote: »

HBO wanted 10 episodes they said nah we can do it in 6.. ..

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

~Rebel~

The White Wolf wrote: »

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

So frustrating.

And even in just the time they had, they could actually have wrapped everything up, if they just put a little effort into character development over seasons 7 and 8.

Could have seen escalating signs of Dany's bloodlust/ruthlessness. Small, isolated instances of her shifting sense of right/wrong. Prior to now, every vicious act could easily be justified as being for the greater good, and the protection of innocents. This switch was like going from Stannis to Ramsey Bolton at the flick of a switch - from pragmatically ruthless, to nutjob school shooter.

They had ample opportunity to set things up... like, Dickon could have done what Tarly senior wanted, and bent the knee, swearing allegiance to her - and she could have burned him anyway, saying the house had proven to be traitors and she couldn't have a potential enemy in charge of a major house.

And in the last episode, at Varys death sentencing, just after his goodbye with Tyrion as he's brought forth to be burned, they could have brought out the little girl that had tried to poison her, to be burned beside him. Would have been a brilliant visual moment for Tyrion, to see in that instant what he's done by backing her. And on the one hand she can justify it to herself and them as the punishment for an assassination attempt, but on the other, it would have been a great callback to locking up her dragons over the death of one little girl in Meereen. Tangible change of character.

Neither of these ideas would have needed any more time to do, just a steady escalation in the severity of her choices.

Lone Stone

The White Wolf wrote: »

I remember that made me think that they must have been putting everything into writing 6 tight fantastic episodes....ha.

me too sigh... i mean it's good for what it is, but it's not what the actors and fan's and every one who worked on the show deserves after nearly a decade of work, just blah feck the character arch's feck all the prophecies ! lets just burn a city with a dragon. I mean we got nothing with cerise absolutely nothing she just stood around like she was a vicious tactical lady, and thats what they did with her crying under some rocks aye.

Sure we will get it in the book, shame really. Come on Georgie boy we need your book !

Paddy Cow

~Rebel~ wrote: »

And in the last episode, at Varys death sentencing, just after his goodbye with Tyrion as he's brought forth to be burned, they could have brought out the little girl that had tried to poison her, to be burned beside him. Would have been a brilliant visual moment for Tyrion, to see in that instant what he's done by backing her. And on the one hand she can justify it to herself and them as the punishment for an assassination attempt, but on the other, it would have been a great callback to locking up her dragons over the death of one little girl in Meereen. Tangible change of character.

Neither of these ideas would have needed any more time to do, just a steady escalation in the severity of her choices.

Did they actually know that Varys tried to poison her or did they just know that he was plotting against her? I know Varys was trying to poison her but I don't think they figured that out. My take on that was that the girl couldn't poison Dany because she wasn't eating and the girl was nervous about trying again because she was being watched.

Nerdlingr

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

~Rebel~

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Did they actually know that Varys tried to poison her or did they just know that he was plotting against her? I know Varys was trying to poison her but I don't think they figured that out. My take on that was that the girl couldn't poison Dany because she wasn't eating and the girl was nervous about trying again because she was being watched.

I mean, they're the writers, if they walk her out to fry, then it means they found out.

What you said is what happened. What I'm saying is what could have happened.

J. Marston

Nerdlingr wrote: »

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

The North gave her that impression, in fairness. She brought her dragons, unsullied, khalasar and dragonglass to help them and she was met with fear and coldness.

~Rebel~

Nerdlingr wrote: »

One thing that galls me is Dany saying no one loves her. That none of the population in westeros adore her.
She hasn't even ruled for any length of time over the people. She hasn't set them free from Cersei's rule or given them a chance to worship her. She's just nuked them all because...eh...they don't love her! It doesn't make sense.
Rule first love. If they still dont like ya then after a few years, then fry em!!

Yeah another dumb thing... if she had taken the city with a minimum of bloodshed (as she did), and then given one of her Dany speeches, they'd have been loving her same as they did in Meereen etc.

Not to mention when stories of her riding north to help fight the Night King etc get peddeled around.

They forced that "no one loves me" story on us so quickly it was painful. From the first heavy-handed second Tormund starting going on about how awesome Jon was for being on a dragon, they pushed that ridiculous line. It also felt very out of character for Tormund and everyone to be ignoring her in that moment anyway, I just didn't buy it.

Liam O

And of course everyone loves Jon Snow...

Who would know, or care who Jon is South of Winterfell bar being a traitor's bastard?

EagererBeaver

Liam O wrote: »

And of course everyone loves Jon Snow...

Who would know, or care who Jon is South of Winterfell bar being a traitor's bastard?

Depends who Varys or anyone else who knows has been writing to.

And Howland Reed (we suppose) of course but he's obviously not coming into things in the show. Or maybe he is knowing the way things have gone so far this year.

theteal

Finally got around to watching this last night - I think that's quite indicative of my feelings towards it at this stage.

Again it was enjoyable but. . . .. The sound was really good, really excellent on a surround setup (so glad I didn't opt to rely on NowTV and it's 2 channel audio). It's just a bit sad that GOT has now (actually quite a while ago) morphed into a "leave your brain at the door" experience.

Is the gestation period for Westerosi kids a lot longer than real life? Cersei hides it well!

razorblunt

Weepsie wrote: »

That's the best reasoning for not doing it. But they had 7 lined up on one side, possibly another 7 on the other.They could nearly have been shooting them in such a way while reloading that they were getting shots off constantly.

I know I'm looking too much into this. Sure they could've fired one at Dany and done us all a favour.

I asked the writers, they said "the Lannister army forgot they could fire scorpions at that moment".

Sleepy

Brendan Filone wrote: »

But the bell ringing signifies surrender so if Cersei forces then use an arrow on a dragon it effectively ends the ceasefire and the battle legitimately continues ...with Danny not looking as mad, but just carrying on the fight .

Exactly. It gives her character some motivation for her continued assault with the cheers of the common folk being her "reason" for burning innocents alive.

Instead we get a character who, until this very moment, has been a champion of the downtrodden and defender of the innocent decide to barbeque those she championed because her nephew refused to shag her.

TheIrishGrover

Well, what I will say is, the whole arguments about the people not loving Dany not making sense does actually. I took it as a sign of her descent into madness and paranoia: Of COURSE they don't love her. For all the reasons posted in this thread:

They don't know her.
She has dragons, Dothraki savages, Unsullied. Northern savages and maybe even wildlings (For all they knew in Kings Landing)
For a generation the Targaryans have been the bogeyman.
She's says she's been fighting ice zombies in the North. How crazy is she?

So all of these would, as various people have stated, would stop people from loving her and would actually cause them to fear her. Her unreasonable assumption that people would simply instantly love her and her rage at the fact that they don't is in indicator of her paranoia.

My only real complaint about this was that they could have spent a bit more time on it. You had flashes: With the Tarleys, at the banquet, in this episode but, if they had spread out over the typical 10 episodes then they could have given this more time.

The White Wolf

Lone Stone wrote: »

me too sigh... i mean it's good for what it is, but it's not what the actors and fan's and every one who worked on the show deserves after nearly a decade of work, just blah feck the character arch's feck all the prophecies ! lets just burn a city with a dragon. I mean we got nothing with cerise absolutely nothing she just stood around like she was a vicious tactical lady, and thats what they did with her crying under some rocks aye.

Sure we will get it in the book, shame really. Come on Georgie boy we need your book !

I remember thinking the extended wait would be worth it if they were putting everything into giving us a coherent 6 episode closure of the story. I think that's one of the biggest downers for me because what they gave us wasn't worth a near 2 year wait.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sleepy wrote: »

Exactly. It gives her character some motivation for her continued assault with the cheers of the common folk being her "reason" for burning innocents alive.

Instead we get a character who, until this very moment, has been a champion of the downtrodden and defender of the innocent decide to barbeque those she championed because her nephew refused to shag her.

I dont think she has been, maybe its because I hated her character but she has always used military force to get what she wants and destroyed EVERYONE who got in her way - and those associated with them.

This isn't too far out of her character. She probably expected the people of Kings Landing to be waiting with "Ee love you Dragon Queen" signs

Hyzepher

From her perspective it becomes a little clearer.

She effectively came to the rescue for everyone in the North. She sacrificed dragons and her army to defeat the night walkers. But in the aftermath no one saw her as the hero. There were no tributes to her and the opposite was happening. Sansa/Arya still skeptical of her etc.

She needs the praise. She considers herself the Queen - she got none. Jon has started to pull away from here and she realised that love was not going to be the binding force between herself and the people. Not like it had been before in Essos.

But her lust for the throne hasn't waned. She's bent over backwards to plan her attack on Kings Landing to please her advisers and yet nothing good has come of it.

If she has ceased the attack when the bells rang out then she'll have given up her only hope of sitting on the throne. No one was ever going to "vote" her in over Jon. She would never be the people's champion. The only way was fear and it was fear that she chose.

I don't think she ever thought that the city would surrender, that Cersei would surrender. Her plan all along was for the city to burn, the surrender just made her look more like a tyrant than she planned but the outcome was the same.

So now it falls to the others to decide which of them can challenge her and she is betting that no of them will after the show of force she just gave them.

She hoped to be loved and sit on the iron throne, to be the queen that everyone wanted. But her desire to be queen was the sleeping force, she is just as power hungry as all that went before her, her desire to "help" the people as been seen to be the smoke screen it has always been. A lie that maybe she believed herself until the threat of losing the throne became too real.

Penn

From Season 2, when the dragons were still just young pups, when the lords of Qarth refuse to let her in.

Daenerys Targaryen: When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!

She has always been destined for this. She fed off the love her people and advisors had for her because she was the Khalessi and mother of dragons etc etc, but she was always on the edge of just destroying everything in her path to get what she wanted.

Unpossible

I think two things that might help explain her actions:
1. She has been raised on stories of how her family merely need to show up with an army and the westros houses and people will simply flock to them. The usurper will be denounced and will be made pay for the rebellion. It must be incredibly jarring to find out that your family are not only seen as tyrants, but that your claim on the throne is suddenly gone as well.

2. She did say she would break the wheel. I guess levelling kings landing does break the old system.


She was warned in one of the books and in an earlier season that turning up in westeros with an army of unsullied won't convince people she is on their side.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I'm fine with Dany's heel turn tbh, thought it was one of few very good moments from the past two seasons.

She put everything on the line to do the right thing and fight the night king, postponing and risking not achieving the goal she's been obsessively working towards her whole life.

More time to lay the groundwork would have paid off big time there (other big part where that showed glaringly, as Sleepy pointed out, was the whiplash speed of Jaime's about turns) but the writing has been on the wall somewhat since episode two and her reaction to Jon's revelation. Not ew gross I've been fcuking my nephew, not oh my god I thought I was absolutely alone in the world and it turns out there's another, but immediately straight to "you have a better claim to my throne".

She's spent the show's run championing the downtrodden, breaking chains etc AS PART of her quest for the Iron Throne, she's explicitly rejected opportunities to build on and solidify the revolutions she's achieved if it meant giving that up. And as a means towards and end it's always worked for her.

It wasn't working any more. Since she's gotten to Westeros she's lost two dragons, at least two very close advisors and the bulk of her army and she perceives (accurately or otherwise) that all that loss will just lead to the people throwing their lot in with Jon anyway. She can't make any headway with Sansa, Varys betrayed her, Tyrion's calls have been consistently wrong. (Yara's presence probably would have made a big difference, I wonder will she make an appearance next week.)

She's right at the point where everything she wanted is in her grasp and also so, so close to slipping away. At previous similar crossroads she's pretty consistently gone for decisive violent action.

A pretty consistent theme of the show is that power and love of it currupts. The people who were least motivated by it for its own sake - Ned, Robb, the Hound, Davos, Brienne, Jaime, Arya are the least corruptible most morally consistent characters; those on the other end of the scale - Cersei, Littlefinger, Joffrey, arguably Theon in early seasons the most all over the place.

Dany has been just as fixated on the acquisition of power as they were, but with loftier window dressing. She finally came up against a situation where she (thought she) had to decisively choose between power and mercy, love and fear, and showed precisely where her red lines for the whole "break the wheel" thing are: between her and the throne.

So, that was grand. Jaime and Euron was AWFUL, that detail about fighting with a knife not a sword strikes me as a very GRRM detail and I'm excited to read whatever permutation of whatever fight that ends up being but JESUS.

Ehh, Cleganebowl too. My OH hasn't read the books, wouldn't really follow any online fan things. He watched it again with me and asked "can you explain the stakes of that to me, I've missed something" and was nonplussed to find out, nope he hadn't. One thing about this director that drives me insane as well is the stupid choppy editing in hand to hand fight scenes, it was the same in them both, cut cut cut every 2 seconds. Used to be one of my favourite things about the show that they so deliberately and consistently avoided that, if two characters were fighting you had a very clear sense of them as bodies in a space and in relation to each other, not just a nauseous sense of body parts and weapons in random motion. Last good example I remember of the classic style was the Tower of Joy fight.

The scenes of chaos and destruction in the streets were outstanding though, I think over time they'll hold up better than a lot of the last third or so of the series run.

Oh well, one more week.

tommy2bad

Selena Raspy Lady wrote: »

I'm fine with Dany's heel turn tbh, thought it was one of few very good moments from the past two seasons.
[snip]

It wasn't but it could have been. Checks thread, ok this is the book readers one, Danny's still struggling in the books to learn how to rule and to be honest her arch could go either way. Hero or villain, doesn't matter as long as we get a good story and see it develope. We the viewers shouldn't have to do the heavy lifting to develop the characterisation so we get to the end point. Hero ending is one option and so is villan but you cant hedge your bets for 95% of the story so you can have a surprise twist at the last minute. Having her become the thing she fights against can be done well, see Godfather II, but this is the worst posible way to do it.
As to Jamie and Cersi, that could go either way in the books too, but not in the TV show, it was just stupid to have Jamie turn at this point, their was no need for him to be at winterfell if that was the ending in mind other than to pay fan servise to him and Brienne and surprise us, again bad writing. Tyrion becoming stupid for no reason other than to give suport to Dannies turn along with a few other inconsistencies realy drive home the fact that D&D had an end point but no clue how to pace the plot to get us there. They wanted a big twist because thats what it's about right? Ned, red wedding, purple wedding all about the shocks.
In fairness Lena Hadly's non acting acting realy helped in this episode, probally the most touching part of her whole story was the ending, I actualy felt sad for her.