DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Singer

skyblue46 wrote: »

The powder is something best suited to cyclists who can carry a bottle of prepared mix on their bike. Mixing powder and water on DCM day would be bonkers.. Take as many complications out of the day as possible.

Here are some fuelling strategies ordered by difficulty, completely arbitrarily according to me

1. The "Enduro" plan. Don't fuel at all. Somehow convince your brain and body that this can work. This won't work out well for pretty much everybody other than national record setting ultra marathon runners, such as Enduro on this forum There might be a small number of people in the world who this can work for, but even Eliud Kipchoge drinks loads of highly optimised sports drink, so I think this is an uncommon and risky strategy. Pretty cool to be able to pull it off though!

2. The "tailwind" plan. Carry around a load of powder and somehow mixing it on the course. You may as well sit down to have a meal half way through! I think this stuff can make sense for cycling and ultra-runners, but most people who just want to finish a race as fast as possible won't be able to carry powder, find enough water at the right time, mix it and drink it without it distracting them from actually running. That said, I've never tried to do it, so I may be completely wrong about the stuff (though I did mix up some nice and tasty strawberry milk from powder after my long run this weekend, yum).

3. The "be an elite athlete" plan. In marathons that cater to elites, you get to leave some bottles of whatever you like that get distributed to tables every 5k. Pretty cool! Krusty Clown (author of the best running log on boards) used to put food dye in his to make whatever stuff he had in the bottles look disgusting so that nobody else would "accidentally" take his, which apparently worked. The only minor problem with this plan is having to be an elite or sub-elite athlete in the first place.

4. The "annoy your friends and family" plan. Get supporters to be at pre-arranged locations spread around the course, and distribute what you'd like to gulp down to them in advance. This is actually a pretty good strategy, other than adding a load of head-wrecking stress to the day of the marathon. It can easily lead to disaster when somebody doesn't stand on the right side of the road or you accidentally saunter past them 'cos you don't see them. This plan sounds like a good way to get a quick divorce after already having put your friends and family through months of marathon training.

5. The "give money to your local Centra" plan. Stock up on Wine Gums, Mars Bars, Haribo, etc. in the local shop and drag it all around with you. It'll be a tasty marathon, but whatever you do don't read the ingredients of those items! Your stomach really doesn't need to be digesting all sorts of different fats just to get at the glorious quickly usable energy in the various sugars in those sweets. Plenty of time for that after the marathon...

6. The "give money to your local running shop" plan. Pick up some gels/chews that are optimised for getting energy into endurance athletes. Make sure your stomach can take them in a few runs, and then take them out on the course with you! Simple efficient self-sufficiency.

7. The "grab whatever is on the course" plan. At DCM there's Lucozade Sport and gels available at different times. For all but the runners at the later end of the race these are free (well, you've paid for them in your entry I guess) and in good locations. You'll need to know exactly where they are in advance and make sure you get what you need at the tables, they can be busy enough and by the later stages of the marathon you might need to remind yourself to actually go over and take in some gloopy goodness. There's also plenty of random people giving out jellies etc. on the course, which can be nice for a little tasty boost but a bit risky as a plan as you have no control over where they'll be or what they'll be giving out.

The big question that I'm sure you're all asking is - what does Singer do for fuelling at marathons?! Just for you novices I'm going to reveal my highly optimised fuelling strategy. I do a mix of 6 and 7. The week before the marathon I buy a few different gels and chews, and on the day carry them around with me in a small running belt. The two things I make sure I have are variety and caffeine, which ends up being a mix of Gu gels, High-5 isogels and Clif Blox. I try to start eating them soon enough, during the Phoenix Park is a good place to start as it's nice and roomy so you don't need as much concentration on running. I also take in some Lucozade Sport and water at most of the stations, small but steady amounts. I also throw away the running belt on the course around Heartbreak Hill (into a bin of course) as every little helps by that stage, and it feels damn good taking it off and throwing it away. For my first DCM I used a FlipBelt, which I didn't take off and throw away as they're a bit expensive and quite awkward to take off (also it was holding my phone).

edit: I should probably note that as a self-declared fuelling master, I threw up immediately after finishing DCM last year. What appeared to be semi-digested Clif Blox and Lucozade Sport didn't actually get processed and used as fuel at all. Better than throwing up before finishing I guess.

ReeReeG

Singer wrote:

edit: I should probably note that as a self-declared fuelling master, I threw up immediately after finishing DCM last year. What appeared to be semi-digested Clif Blox and Lucozade Sport didn't actually get processed and used as fuel at all. Better than throwing up before finishing I guess.

Lovely

DBB

ReeReeG wrote: »

Lovely

Indeed... Makes it sound so appetising :D

Has anyone tried using Tailwind as a "gel", by making up a thick, viscous mix of it in a bottle to take a slug of before you hit each water station, so you can glug the goo down?

DBB

Huzzah! wrote: »

If you're comfortable on the plan you're on, that's a good thing. It doesn't necessarily mean that you chose the "wrong" plan. We're not even halfway there yet. It sounds like you choose the right plan: (a) for where you are now; and (b) taking "life" into account. Well done on keeping the runs truly easy. I think it's helping everything feel as manageable as it is.

I've a tendency towards being cautious, so I checked with the boss and we think that moving to the Boards plan at this stage would be a bad move. The weekday sessions build on each other and the long run is enough ahead that jumping it at this point is too much of a risk. If you're happy to keep the extra weekly run, then I see no problem in you continuing to do that.

Remind us closer to Tullamore and we'll help you shufty the plan around.

Thanks Huzzah! and Mr. Guappa
That has helped to reassure me

kulekat

DBB wrote: »

ReeReeG wrote: »

Lovely

Indeed... Makes it sound so appetising :D

Has anyone tried using Tailwind as a "gel", by making up a thick, viscous mix of it in a bottle to take a slug of before you hit each water station, so you can glug the goo down?

Perhaps just make it more concentrated in water... ie no need to 'gelify' it.

Say 3 scoops in 300ml (or whatever ur tummy can tolerate). But then on ur training runs u should have normal water to gulp with it iykwim.

Huzzah!

DBB wrote: »

Indeed... Makes it sound so appetising :D

Has anyone tried using Tailwind as a "gel", by making up a thick, viscous mix of it in a bottle to take a slug of before you hit each water station, so you can glug the goo down?

There was some discussion of this last year (TW proves surprisingly controversial) and, apparently, there's no difference in content between Tailwind and regular gels, so if your plan is to make gels from TW, it might be easier to just use gels?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108193025&postcount=3082

greentea is just wrong

Let us know how you got on in Week 6:
- Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yes, though in a different order as I was at the Galway races

Tues - 3.36mi @ 10.06/m
Wed - 4.09mi @ 11.17/m
Fri - 10.02mi @ 11.21/m
Sun - 3.13mi @ 10.49/m

- Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?
The run on tuesday was prob too fast, rest felt appropriate, and okay pace.

- Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?
Feeling good so far. The 10 miles was my longest to date & really struggled with the last 3 miles tbh. Combination of heat & first time running past 7 miles. Tried to remember that I felt like this first time I ran 10k too.

Thanks for all the support, really enjoying this thread

DBB

Huzzah! wrote: »

There was some discussion of this last year (TW proves surprisingly controversial) and, apparently, there's no difference in content between Tailwind and regular gels, so if your plan is to make gels from TW, it might be easier to just use gels?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108193025&postcount=3082

That's great info! Thanks
I tried TW on a couple of lsrs, just at its normal dilution, and although I enjoyed it at first, I found the sweetness really started to coat my mouth towards the end of the runs, which was not pleasant. Kinda put me off the TW.
Gels are handier because they allow you to just carry plain water, and you can wash the sweetness down quickly. I've some Clif Bloks to try now over the next few lsrs too, and I'll pick up some electrolyte tabs this week.
Think I'll donate the remaining TW to one of the cyclists in the family!

mister paul

Posted this on the wrong thread

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

All runs completed mostly successfully

Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Mostly, the middle miles on the LSR were probably a bit on the fast side and I suffered during the last couple as a result of that and other things

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

All going well so far

Huzzah!

DBB wrote: »

That's great info! Thanks
I tried TW on a couple of lsrs, just at its normal dilution, and although I enjoyed it at first, I found the sweetness really started to coat my mouth towards the end of the runs, which was not pleasant. Kinda put me off the TW.
Gels are handier because they allow you to just carry plain water, and you can wash the sweetness down quickly. I've some Clif Bloks to try now over the next few lsrs too, and I'll pick up some electrolyte tabs this week.
Think I'll donate the remaining TW to one of the cyclists in the family!

I used it near the end of the marathon last year as I thought the change of texture would do me good and I was happy to carry it with me, so no mixing on the move but I find it awfully sickening as well - probably because of how sweet it is.

Mr. Guappa

frash wrote: »

Did the DLR 10km this morning in a time of 53.38.
It's not a PB course but it's the only 10km I do as its the local one. Didn't get a PB (out by 2 whole mins) but am happy with result.

Think I'm still on track pace-wise for the 4:30 marathon but then again I thought that the last time too!

Good to see that you're happy with the result. 10k's are hard to get right, especially if you're not used to them. Hopefully you are reassured that there is still some speed in the legs anyway!

Let's see how the rest of training goes, but yeah, 4:30 seems attainable.

Huzzah!

greentea is just wrong wrote: »

Let us know how you got on in Week 6:
- Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yes, though in a different order as I was at the Galway races

Tues - 3.36mi @ 10.06/m
Wed - 4.09mi @ 11.17/m
Fri - 10.02mi @ 11.21/m
Sun - 3.13mi @ 10.49/m

- Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?
The run on tuesday was prob too fast, rest felt appropriate, and okay pace.

- Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?
Feeling good so far. The 10 miles was my longest to date & really struggled with the last 3 miles tbh. Combination of heat & first time running past 7 miles. Tried to remember that I felt like this first time I ran 10k too.

Thanks for all the support, really enjoying this thread

Well done on getting all the runs in despite what was no doubt a busy week. You're doing well on slowing the paces but please try and slow down even more. That will make the uncharted territory of the longer runs feel a bit more manageable.

Huzzah!

mister paul wrote: »

Posted this on the wrong thread

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

All runs completed mostly successfully

Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Mostly, the middle miles on the LSR were probably a bit on the fast side and I suffered during the last couple as a result of that and other things

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

All going well so far

How're the niggles?

mister paul

Huzzah! wrote: »

How're the niggles?

I definitely think that the stretching is helping with the niggles, I just need to ensure that I make time for them before and after runs. Before the long run on Sunday I was a bit tight for time, so I favoured stretching out my left hip and glute as they tend to give me more trouble, so the right side made it's presence felt late on in the run instead.

passinginterest

Week 6
4 out of 5 runs

Skipped the recovery on Sunday as we were hosting a bit of a garden party for the wife’s birthday. I also developed an enormous blister on my left arch after last weeks long run disaster so the extra recovery is welcome.

Pace wise I was pretty happy. The 5 miles at marathon pace were a little more controlled than the previous marathon pace efforts. Long run went well apart from an unscheduled pit stop after 3 miles. Got beyond 15 successfully and made the last mile my fastest.

DeepBlue

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

During the marathon you will need to be taking on board 60-90g of carbs per hour, which is quite a lot. How many grams of carbs are in a sachet? An does it seem like a process you can repeat multiple times at marathon pace with a tired mind?

Tbh I haven't even started thinking about a fuel or hydration strategy for the marathon and was just fueling the lsr. Each sachet is 47g (into a 500ml bottle) and according to high5 you're supposed to drink between 150 and 250ml every 20 minutes! So really over my long run I should have had at least 4 sachets instead of just one.

Singer

DeepBlue wrote: »

Tbh I haven't even started thinking about a fuel or hydration strategy for the marathon and was just fueling the lsr. Each sachet is 47g (into a 500ml bottle) and according to high5 you're supposed to drink between 150 and 250ml every 20 minutes! So really over my long run I should have had at least 4 sachets instead of just one.

Well, they would say that! That seems very excessive to me. You shouldn't be taking gels in training at the same volume as you would during the marathon, as a) you should be generally be training your body to run long distances without copious amounts of sugar being consumed b) you're not running for as long beyond when the glycogen already available in your body starts to run low, so loading up on sugar isn't as necessary and c) munching down a tonne of sugar every week during training sounds like a good way to gain some weight.

Singer

Also - not even the makers of the powder stuff mention taking it during an actual marathon: https://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and-further/running-nutrition-guides/marathon/ - the only powder based sugar and protein drinks are consumed before and after the marathon.

Unknownability

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, all runs completed and in the correct order. Had one match last week so mileage slightly higher.

Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Run at PMP was slightly too quick circa 20 seconds per mile, that was down to not knowing the route and rushing to get back to work. Working from home tomorrow so will be on a familiar route and less time pressure to stop sweating and put back on a suit :-).

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

Yes, body feels good and paces are fine. Fully committed and believing that the plan will get me across the line.

Talk has moved on from DCM to Paris or Rotterdam, went to book today but (luckily) couldn't for either. I am very impulsive.

Huzzah!

Unknownability wrote: »

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, all runs completed and in the correct order. Had one match last week so mileage slightly higher.

Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Run at PMP was slightly too quick circa 20 seconds per mile, that was down to not knowing the route and rushing to get back to work. Working from home tomorrow so will be on a familiar route and less time pressure to stop sweating and put back on a suit :-).

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

Yes, body feels good and paces are fine. Fully committed and believing that the plan will get me across the line.

Talk has moved on from DCM to Paris or Rotterdam, went to book today but (luckily) couldn't for either. I am very impulsive.

Don’t underestimate training through an Irish winter for a spring marathon that may end up being very warm. I’d love to do Paris, though, and may need to be reminded of this post in years to come.

Unknownability

Huzzah! wrote: »

Don’t underestimate training through an Irish winter for a spring marathon that may end up being very warm. I’d love to do Paris, though, and may need to be reminded of this post in years to come.

Completely jinxed myself, had to get 5 stitches in my chin after an accident at football training.

So plan is cancel running for a few days and reevaluate later in the week.

ReeReeG

Unknownability wrote:

Completely jinxed myself, had to get 5 stitches in my chin after an accident at football training.

Oh crap. Sounds nasty. Definitely let the healing begin before chancing a run.

Laineyfrecks

Unknownability wrote: »

Completely jinxed myself, had to get 5 stitches in my chin after an accident at football training.

So plan is cancel running for a few days and reevaluate later in the week.

Ouch sounds very sore!! Hope you have a speedy recovery:)

DBB

Unknownability wrote: »

Completely jinxed myself, had to get 5 stitches in my chin after an accident at football training.

So plan is cancel running for a few days and reevaluate later in the week.

Uh oh
Here's to a speedy recovery and back to running soon!

KGC

Late posting this week. Many hours spent in a&e on Sunday/Monday. Accompanying someone, not myself thank f. (Delightful place to spend a day!!!!!)

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

All runs completed as planned

Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Mostly, short runs around 6:55min/km, LSR at 7:08

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

All going well so far. Slight niggle in one knee but been to physio and shouldn't be a problem

clickhere

Hi all, good to be back. I was in Mexico for 2 weeks and only managed to get 3 10ks done on a thread mill in the gym. I got back to the plan last Wednesday and completed all the runs. LSR on Saturday, 26.14 KMs @ 6.28. I'm doing the Rock and roll half on Sunday, is there anything you think I should change in the plan. This is the only race I'm booked in for before the marathon. Thank you.

Huzzah!

clickhere wrote: »

Hi all, good to be back. I was in Mexico for 2 weeks and only managed to get 3 10ks done on a thread mill in the gym. I got back to the plan last Wednesday and completed all the runs. LSR on Saturday, 26.14 KMs @ 6.28. I'm doing the Rock and roll half on Sunday, is there anything you think I should change in the plan. This is the only race I'm booked in for before the marathon. Thank you.

If you're planning on racing it, then instead of tonight's session, just do an easy four miles with five strides, optional three mile recovery tomorrow, optional three mile recovery on Friday and two miles easy on Saturday.

We might need to take a look at next week as well in terms of the midweek session.

clickhere

Huzzah! wrote: »

If you're planning on racing it, then instead of tonight's session, just do an easy four miles with five strides, optional three mile recovery tomorrow, optional three mile recovery on Friday and two miles easy on Saturday.

We might need to take a look at next week as well in terms of the midweek session.

Thanks for the advice Huzzah, I'll go with that plan so. I was going to race it, to give me an idea of fitness level. Set the different paces for the rest of the plan. Do you think that would be OK.

ReeReeG

clickhere wrote:

Thanks for the advice Huzzah, I'll go with that plan so. I was going to race it, to give me an idea of fitness level. Set the different paces for the rest of the plan. Do you think that would be OK.

Yeah if its the only race you have between now and DCM, that's a good plan I would say. You can make sure you're training appropriately in terms of pace, and will give you an idea of target time.

cailineile

Morning All,

Not logged on for a few weeks, a quick update as to where I am now, Wk 6 of the plan will be done this Sunday and so far so good.



Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
all but one 4 miles done so far, ( missed my Sat session) was burnt by just long work week and hard track session on thur night, needed the rest and felt mighty on Sunday as a result of not pushing it, went swimming instead and it helped lots.


Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?
Yes, and no, went way too fast one night and then copped myself on again, LSR are slow which is the way to go

Are you satisfied with how your training is progressing?

Yes, enjoying it also at the moment, have gotten into the proper routine and it seems to be coming together. def getting more sleep so that helping and now trying to improve nutrition side of things, its not bad bad per se, but can always improve.

I've few days away in Bali in 2 weeks, so will try and switch it up a bit, running in Bali is life or death with mopeds trying to kill you and dodgy roads/paths. so will see how it fares.

For my 10 miles on Sunday I had gels and they were fine but def didn't bring enough water with me, it was 33 degrees+ very humid and I was fairly dehydrated after. Post run and after drinking over a litre of water, I'd lost over 2kg. Wont be making that mistake again or else i'll just have to get up at 5am and do it ( which isn't ideal either), moral of the story, fail to prepare, prepare to have a banging headache and feel like crap due to dehydration.

I'm doing a good bit of mobility on hips and glutes and finding its helping massively simple stuff but doing it 3/4 times per week, means i've zero niggles which i like, and feel like a new woman after doing them only takes 15 mins .
I've also signed up for a 10km week after next just to get a race in and then as I couldn't find a half there is an 18.45km ( first year of company) in mid sep so will do that !)

Right o, long weekend here ( 4 day wknd) so hope everyone enjoys their runs this weekend, ps last but not least listened to a great podcast when out for a walk last night, The physical performance, polarized training.. worth a listen if you want to understand the 80/20 rule in terms of effort and training at low intensities. It all rings true. I found it very useful


C:)