DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Laineyfrecks

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

No worries

You've caused me to go back and look again actually.

I'd say PMP at 9:00 and easy/LSR pace 10:00-10:20.

Thanks for both replies - i just couldn't find the post & wanted to make sure i'm running at the correct pace & not an imaginary faster pace

Will put into practice tomorrow;)

Ais_Byrne7

- Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, got all four in and a walk in on Sunday

- Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Yes, I think i'm finally starting to slow down to the perfect comfortable pace. Previous weeks I've had to keep reminding myself to slow down. But now, i'm really starting to ease in, relax and enjoy it!


- Which aspects of your training/preparation need improving?
I need to work more on cross training this week. I've really neglected my gym/weights since investing in this plan - frankly i'm finding it hard to squeeze it all in! But, I do understand strengthening up and stretching out is important so my aim is to squeeze in one gym session or yoga class this week.

I also need to work more on my diet and nutrition. I'm finding myself very hungry these days. I don't think i'm re-fueling properly after a run so going to make sure to give this more attention.

Overall i'm very happy with how it's all going. My LSR run this week really went well for me and has given me a great boost in 'I can do this' confidence.

The Black Oil

ReeReeG wrote: »

Quite a few people over the years of this thread who followed the HH plan, and did just the one 20 mile run, went on and ran DCM okay. I only did one 20 mile run before my first marathon too. Adding another one (without the prior base) risks having you too tired for the big day itself... the boards plan has two alright but ideally people following that plan would have had a higher base leading into training.

If you're not convinced, I can source some race reports from last years thread of people who followed the HH plan for you to read? And you could go back and look at their posts leading up to it maybe..

While we're here actually, I think you could benefit from slowing your easy pace a tad more (going on your recent HM time).

2016 novice here, HHN1 plan. Ran the 20 mile with two other novices in around the Phoenix park and its surroundings back in the day. The others were on the boards plan and were on 18 miles, iirc. For me, 20 miles (20.05 mi) was 3:40:10 at 10:59 min/mi, on 08/10/2016. Longest prior to that was 16.06 mi, 2:52:31 at 10:44 min/mi on 10/09/2016.

FWIW, my longest training run for Connemarathon was 3 hours (different plan, time based - not distance) and 16 miles. My long runs are quicker now (but not fast), and I'd probably be at about 18 miles in 3 hours these days. I'll be doing longer on a different plan again, but would echo what's been said above. I would love to find if there's a comparison from another sport around not overdoing it in training whilst still being able to produce the goods in the end. There must be something. There was someone who posted here a few weeks ago and said they were going to do all 26 miles in training. There is no need for this, frankly. Years of sensible training has seen many a novice cross the finish line. Consistency pays off.

Mr. Guappa

Ais_Byrne7 wrote: »

- Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, got all four in and a walk in on Sunday

- Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Yes, I think i'm finally starting to slow down to the perfect comfortable pace. Previous weeks I've had to keep reminding myself to slow down. But now, i'm really starting to ease in, relax and enjoy it!


- Which aspects of your training/preparation need improving?
I need to work more on cross training this week. I've really neglected my gym/weights since investing in this plan - frankly i'm finding it hard to squeeze it all in! But, I do understand strengthening up and stretching out is important so my aim is to squeeze in one gym session or yoga class this week.

I also need to work more on my diet and nutrition. I'm finding myself very hungry these days. I don't think i'm re-fueling properly after a run so going to make sure to give this more attention.

Overall i'm very happy with how it's all going. My LSR run this week really went well for me and has given me a great boost in 'I can do this' confidence.

How recently was your 2:18 HM time? I ask because your training paces are ridiculously fast compared to that HM time.

Sunday Runner

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Obviously issues will pop up from time to time that mean we are going to miss runs, but I do think that you need to plan your week better so that you are getting in the mileage. Easy and often. Consistency.

Speaking of easy - you're still running far too fast. All your runs are at marathon pace or faster. SLOW DOWN.

If you're struggling to find the time to get in all the runs and the miles on the boards plan then maybe it's time to switch to the HH?

Thanks Mr. G. I am struggling a bit with 5 days running, I’m not going to lie. And yes for sure, there will always be life challenges and I’ve been very unlucky lately being sick twice. I am never sick! Hopefully the rest days will benefit me!

It strikes me that the boards plan runners have a savage base of running? Is that fair to say? Coming into marathon training I was doing 5ish Crossfit sessions and one run a week; a chatty one with friends.

Looking like I will do the HH plan with possibly a bit of additional mileage. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Hate second guessing myself, but this is new territory for me! Would be lost without the advice here, I appreciate every bit of it!

Have a few routes mapped out for the next few days. Saturday LSR is going to be challenging, but it will be a lovely route. It will be more challenging to convince my husband to run up and down hills with me at 6am though.

Ais_Byrne7

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

How recently was your 2:18 HM time? I ask because your training paces are ridiculously fast compared to that HM time.

It was last November...and here’s me thinking that I’m going nice and slow 🙈 what pace do you suggest I should be aiming for?

Huzzah!

Sunday Runner wrote: »

Thanks Mr. G. I am struggling a bit with 5 days running, I’m not going to lie. And yes for sure, there will always be life challenges and I’ve been very unlucky lately being sick twice. I am never sick! Hopefully the rest days will benefit me!

It strikes me that the boards plan runners have a savage base of running? Is that fair to say? Coming into marathon training I was doing 5ish Crossfit sessions and one run a week; a chatty one with friends.

Looking like I will do the HH plan with possibly a bit of additional mileage. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Hate second guessing myself, but this is new territory for me! Would be lost without the advice here, I appreciate every bit of it!

Have a few routes mapped out for the next few days. Saturday LSR is going to be challenging, but it will be a lovely route. It will be more challenging to convince my husband to run up and down hills with me at 6am though.

I think you should really try and lock down what plan you're following this week. I initially suggested the Boards plan for you as I thought you'd already been running four days a week consistently. You'll feel better once you commit to a plan. Be realistic in terms of which one you pick.

Good luck with the early hilly run. Be sure to drop back the paces if it's a challenging route

Huzzah!

Ais_Byrne7 wrote: »

It was last November...and here’s me thinking that I’m going nice and slow �� what pace do you suggest I should be aiming for?

As a simple guide, runs that are faster than HMP/MP should be the exception rather than the rule. You should aim for a good minute per mile or more slower than what you're running currently.

Sorbet

Looking for a bit of general advice please - after yesterday's recovery run of 3 miles last night I experienced some pain in my right knee. "Felt" both knees a little after the 15 mile LSR but wouldn't describe it as pain.

Pain isn't bad at all and I definitely would manage a run today on it but I'm a bit paranoid about injury - what is the general advice on injury prevention? Should I expect to have a little discomfort from time to time on joints given the uptick in training or should I take a day off?

I'd hate to miss a run as I haven't missed one yet but my gut is if I'm going to miss one the 5 mile easy on the Boards plan today is probably not a bad one to miss.

I'm loosely aware of a prohibition on Boards on giving medical advice so not looking for a definitive answer but some general pointers on injury and approach to pains would be appreciated.;)

py

Sorbet wrote: »

Pain isn't bad at all and I definitely would manage a run today on it but I'm a bit paranoid about injury - what is the general advice on injury prevention? Should I expect to have a little discomfort from time to time on joints given the uptick in training or should I take a day off?

*not a doctor* Do some static stretching (hold for at least 30 seconds) of your quads, hamstrings, calves and muscles on front of the calves (front calves? :pac:). Then leave it a few hours and do it again before your next run. *not a doctor*

Djoucer

Be very careful doing static stretching before a run. Plenty of evidence that it doesn’t work and possibly do more harm than good. Very few people recommend them today. Especially before a run.

Look at dynamic stretching and strength and conditioning exercises. Activate the glutes etc.

It’s remarkable how much knee pain/ calf pain is related to weak glutes or glutes not firing. When you up the miles, glutes can get weak.

If knee pain comes when running donwhill and you feel it on the outside, it could be your itb. Hip raises are great for this.

ariana`

I'd suggest booking either a physio or physical therapist for a good rub down of the legs. As Djoucer said the ITB can get tight and you may need a professional to loosen it out. If you're feeling a niggle at this stage then it's no harm to have a professional's name/number in your back pocket and even start building a relationship. It might be a case that a good rub down every 3/4 weeks is all you need to keep you injury free. With the mileage about to start really building up now is the time to get on top of anything that might derail your goal later on. A good physio/therapist will also be able to give you exercises to address any weakness such as weak glutes which are a common enough problem for runners especially those who sit at a desk in the day job.

frash

- Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yeap

- Did you run all the runs at an appropriate pace?
Yeah - all around 11:30 (PMP should be 10:15 ish) hopefully

- Which aspects of your training/preparation need improving?
Am happy enough slogging away at the slower pace.
I'm doing a 10km race this weekend though and can't fathom how I'm going to do it in 8 and a bit minute miles as this "easy pace" seems to be just my "normal pace" these days.
Would love to beat 51 mins as although it's not a PB course it is my PB (on the same course)

Laineyfrecks

So i've decided to take the pluge & start a training log for my Journey to my 1st marathon:D Hopefully i'll get the swing of it by looking at others & mostly hopefully i can learn from it!! Feel free to follow

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058001738/1/#post110838846

Mr. Guappa

I know that we talk about easy paces a lot, and that it probably gets boring. But, it's for good reason. Lots and lots of appropriately easy miles are the key to builing your endurance. Most of you don't need to get faster - you need to improve your endurance.

We've mentioned previosuly that if you train too fast you will not build this endurance and will encounter problems later in the marathon. These warnings can be meaningless in the abstract, so I thought it might be a good idea to share the experience of one of last year's novices who had an extremely painful (and long) finish to his marathon. Thanks to Comic Book Guy for allowing me to share his experience with you, and apologies to him for any pain and suffering caused by having to be reminded of it again

First a bit of background on his training. ALL of his training runs were completed at ~7:30/mile. He knocked out 20 and 22 milers at this pace a few weeks prior to DCM, so surely another 4.2 miles at that pace would be no bother? WRONG! Here is his race report, It's pretty grim from 20 miles on. Below I've attached his paces for the marathon, so you can see what his agony looks like in statistical form. :eek:

I went back and forth on whether or not to share Comic Book Guy's story, as I was a bit worried it might be too much, but to be honest, some of you need a wake up call. What I will say is that if you stick to the plan and keep the paces appropriately easy then you will have no such problems. In fact, you will be the best-prepared novice runners at the start line of DCM.

Treviso

Ouch that does sound like a painful last 6 miles. Cramp is the one thing I haven't factored into running the marathon until now. In my head I'm just picturing suffering and maybe slowing for the end but cramp is a different story.

From following AuldManKing's log, my treatment for cramp will be to constantly hit my legs until it subsides

eabha19

Oh man, that's scary! My fear is that I'll end up hobbling through the marathon for whatever reason. Mind you if I end up hobbling through half of it my end time will be about double Comicguy's finish time!!

The Black Oil

Just to add to what I said yesterday. For DCM16 I remember my feet feeling like they were on fire around mile 23 (I think), fortunately it didn't end things for me. However, don't be surprised - things might bite at some point as you're in uncharted waters with this last few miles. Again, a sensible approach should see you through and you'll savour the last few hundred metres with all those people cheering!! I ran 4:17, first marathon. It wasn't realistic to run sub 4 that occasion, I largely knew that going in. I don't regret the experience, if I did I'd probably never have raced again. 4:11 in 2017 (grads plan) and 3:57 in 2018 - meno plan which has 18, 20 and 22 miles with some of those having chunks at marathon pace. I would like to hit 3:45 this year, but it's at the back of my mind because 1) I don't think about it on training runs and 2) we're only at the edge of August. I've been fortunate not to have any disastrous experiences at marathons. I have experienced a 2-3 horrible training runs where the body just didn't want to go there and I was a bit foolish after the 10 mile last year. Race was good, I didn't really recover right, followed by increased mileage load, so mea culpa there. I aim not to repeat this after the FD10 in a few weeks time. Knock on wood I haven't had to go back for an appointment since Feb of this year. I do enjoy easy runs, obviously it's well drummed into us at this stage, hence the repeated advice. I hope to get a few miles in on a beach here in a few weeks time. I did that last year and the weather was glorious, but I wasn't tearing up the sand (firm though it was). If you don't stick to good easy stuff it's a bit like plonking something in the oven for 45 minutes, going off, returning 2 hours later and hoping it's not burnt. Remember respect the distance. Don't give the marathon a chance to be unkind to you by training too fast.

Surely there's a running podcast somewhere that's covered all of this too...

coogy

The Black Oil wrote: »

Surely there's a running podcast somewhere that's covered all of this too...

Oh, it's out the're alright. It's covered in podcasts, websites, YouTube videos, not to mention right here on these threads....there's no shortage of advice telling runners to slow down.


Btw, we had an identical time for DCM 2018. Sounds like your last few outings (especially your first DCM) have been very sensibly managed with realistic goals.

I really enjoy the easy runs now, didn't seem that long ago that I was on the receiving end of wagging fingers for not slowing it down enough.

jackc101

Something that crossed my mind, as I read through some of the other race reports from last years gang was the utter devastation some had on not reaching their target goal. For crying out loud even Comic Book Guy's time was sub 4 hours and I'd take the hand off someone for that finishing time right now :eek:

ariana`

jackc101 wrote: »

Something that crossed my mind, as I read through some of the other race reports from last years gang was the utter devastation some had on not reaching their target goal. For crying out loud even Comic Book Guy's time was sub 4 hours and I'd take the hand off someone for that finishing time right now :eek:

It's all relative though...

The bigger picture is to recognise the achievement in training for and completing your 1st marathon. Crossing that line should be the best feeling ever and if you take on board all the advice that is given to you here it will be! Enjoy the first one, finish smiling, there'll be plenty of other opportunities to target a time goal.

DeepBlue

On the flip side is there any negative consequences if you run your easy runs at slower than your easy run pace? E.g. say your easy run pace is 10min/mile and you run it at 11.30min/mile occasionally?

Dealerz2.0

ariana` wrote: »

It's all relative though...

The bigger picture is to recognise the achievement in training for and completing your 1st marathon. Crossing that line should be the best feeling ever and if you take on board all the advice that is given to you here it will be! Enjoy the first one, finish smiling, there'll be plenty of other opportunities to target a time goal.

Absolutely could not agree more.

It's the first time you will run a marathon, respect it, train/pace conservatively, enjoy it. The second/third/fourth marathon will be when you go after "that" time!

As has been said before, very few if any within your circle of friends and family care about 3:59, 4:15, 4:01, 4:50 etc, they will just be so delighted that you got to that finish line for your 1st marathon having witnessed all the hard work you put in.

Naked Lepper

second time doing the DCM this year, last year was great - followed the HH boards plan (fairly loosely to be totally honest)

finished the first HM in 1.55 and the real thing in 4.18 - was a little disappointed with the actual time as I had hoped to get in around 4 but the goal was always just to finish it for the first one, which I did.

some things went against me last year that I have identified as loose hanging fruit that can be easily improved upon if I want to get sub 4 this year:

* sleep better in the week leading up to marathon- for some reason I was having awful sleeps for weeks beforehand.
* diet - poor diet in general and prob should cut out beer a bit more etc.
* got a bit lazy after my 20m LSR during training and my taper for the last 3 weeks was half arsed as I was a bit complacent (was of the impression 'well this is the longest run and they said if u can do the 20m then its just a case of adding an extra 6 on the day, and the buzz of it will get you through' - might be true but will result more pain and potentially miss your goals if you do what I did and effectively sit on your arse for the final part of the training plan).
* prob the most important aspect to improve this year is to run more miles in training and my time will be reduced!
* stomach was upset on morning of marathon (poor choice meal evening before and nerves too) which led to me being very dehydrated too soon in the race and DYING for water in between the 5m water stations.
* also wore a beanie hat for first half of marathon and lost a LOT of sweat through that, rookie mistake! was wearing it to keep warm before hand and decided to hang onto it till rialto where I could give it to mrs before continuing on, this year ill wear a cheap hoodie while waiting and dispose of it at start line).
* plus poor nutrition along the route, was STARVING and dehydrated before walkinstown and by then it was quite late to try and redeem myself - the four hour pacers swept by me just after the walkinstown roundabout which was really demoralising (they were a good bit behind me when I last saw them in the phoenix park and being passed by the pacers is a unique experience, you hear a gradual commotion behind you as large groups of runner congregate around the pacers (4hour in particular) and if youre struggling it seems that these people are just brushing by you at ease before disappearing into the distance, not great when there is still around 20k+ to run!

turns out I actually ran like 43.5k or something on the day according to my watch, wonder if that is an issue with GPS or if the extra km was as a result of my being inefficient with my position on the road and whatnot, will try keep an eye on is this year as I was not really far off 4hr marathon according to watch time (which means nothing really in the grand scheme as its the tag time I am concerned with haha). I passed the 30k mark (chip time) at 3 hours so the last 12k were really slow and are what ultimately killed me I think. will prepare better for this aspect of the race in particular this year.

anyway all that that said, some things to work on - have not really stuck to any specific plan yet this year but am really active between football, cycling and then doing unstructured runs during the week. jumped straight into a 15k run on Monday (Monday is my day for LSR as I have football on sat and rest on sunday) and was fine, tues is also rest day so back at it today and planning a nice easy 5m(8k) run as per my version of the HH intermediate plan I am going to follow. hopefully I will have enough time in the next 13/14? weeks to catch up and get ready to get that sub 4

then I am never doing a marathon again, lol - said that after last years.

best of luck to all first timers this year, it is such an amazing feeling to finish the damn thing, and to be fair - the atmosphere along the route is great- there will be points during it where it gets tough and the support and mentoring from some of the people on this thread over the next few months will be really useful for you mentally and physically to get through it!

coogy

jackc101 wrote: »

Something that crossed my mind, as I read through some of the other race reports from last years gang was the utter devastation some had on not reaching their target goal. For crying out loud even Comic Book Guy's time was sub 4 hours and I'd take the hand off someone for that finishing time right now :eek:

I can understand how you might think it odd for a runner to be so critical of their sub-4 marathon time but unless you've experienced a similar collapse during those final 6 miles - for which nothing prepares you - then it would be difficult, if not impossible to get a sense of what that actually feels like.


The best analogy I can think of to describe that feeling (this might sound corny) is if you bought a ticket for an experience on the world's biggest, most exhilarating and breathtaking roller-coaster ride.
The excitement you feel as you patiently wait your turn and watch others enjoy the moment very quickly disappears when, during your turn, the roller-coaster malfunctions halfway through the ride and you have to wait for the emergency services to arrive to bring you down very slowly to safety.



I told you it was corny but it kind of makes sense to me!!

coogy

ariana` wrote: »

It's all relative though...

The bigger picture is to recognise the achievement in training for and completing your 1st marathon. Crossing that line should be the best feeling ever and if you take on board all the advice that is given to you here it will be! Enjoy the first one, finish smiling, there'll be plenty of other opportunities to target a time goal.

Anyone here doing their first marathon would be wise to heed this advice. Do whatever it takes for you not to cross that finish line feeling like you want the ground to swallow you up.

Savour and enjoy the moment, you only get to run your first marathon once!!

frash

Naked Lepper wrote: »

turns out I actually ran like 43.5k or something on the day according to my watch, wonder if that is an issue with GPS or if the extra km was as a result of my being inefficient with my position on the road and whatnot

This came up a lot in the novice thread back when I did it in 2015.
I'm sure the mentors will talk about the "racing line" closer to the time

Mr. Guappa

Before widespread panic develops amongst the novices, I should point out that most of you are training at appropriately easy (or something approaching easy) paces. If you keep going as you are, keep following the plan, pick a realistic target time and pace your marathon appropriately then you will have no problems on the day.

I'm trying to reach those who are still tearing about at MP day in, day out, as well as those throwing in random speed sessions every week. You don't need to improve your speed, you need to improve your endurance.

Singer

frash wrote: »

This came up a lot in the novice thread back when I did it in 2015.
I'm sure the mentors will talk about the "racing line" closer to the time

It's usually a mix, GPS watches tend to measure marathons long and most runners don't follow the race line (i.e. taking the shortest possible route):


It's easier said than done. It can be near impossible to do in big crowds (no hope for the first few miles in DCM), requires some practice and concentration, and can be difficult to maintain for 3-5 hours!

For now it is worth being aware of the concept and trying it out in parkruns and races. Following the race line can definitely make a difference to your time.

Applegirl26

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Absolutely could not agree more.

It's the first time you will run a marathon, respect it, train/pace conservatively, enjoy it. The second/third/fourth marathon will be when you go after "that" time!

As has been said before, very few if any within your circle of friends and family care about 3:59, 4:15, 4:01, 4:50 etc, they will just be so delighted that you got to that finish line for your 1st marathon having witnessed all the hard work you put in.

So true!

I ran DCM last year and was very disappointed with my time. I don't know where my head was at because the time I ran was fairly accurate for where my training was! I wish I had not set myself a time and just gone out and enjoyed the day more.

In April I ran my second marathon and I set myself two goals: cross the start line and cross the finish line, I put nó pressure on myself to reach a time only to finish and I had the run of my life.