DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Lombardo123

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Agreed - those times show you have the potential for a sub 4 marathon. You rightly mention endurance - that will be a key factor in determining if you make sub 4 or not. What wave are you in? If you're set on attempting sub 4 I'd aim for 3:59 with a conservative start.

I don't mean it to sound as stubborn as it sounds, but I do think I'm set on the attempt. I did a 1.18 10m in Trim this year so I think my FD 10 mile might even be a touch slower than I'm capable of on a non scorching day

I'm in wave 2, and I actually think I'll pace myself so I was just going to go out at the end of that wave, i feel comfortable enough / disciplined enough to pace myself.

From your experience would you drop to wave 3 and go with 4 hour pacers rather than going out with the faster wave?

Also, I actually never joined the strava group, would it benefit me to provide details of my training times to you on that for a more accurate assessment?

Mr. Guappa

Lombardo123 wrote: »

I don't mean it to sound as stubborn as it sounds, but I do think I'm set on the attempt. I did a 1.18 10m in Trim this year so I think my FD 10 mile might even be a touch slower than I'm capable of on a non scorching day

I'm in wave 2, and I actually think I'll pace myself so I was just going to go out at the end of that wave, i feel comfortable enough / disciplined enough to pace myself.

From your experience would you drop to wave 3 and go with 4 hour pacers rather than going out with the faster wave?

Also, I actually never joined the strava group, would it benefit me to provide details of my training times to you on that for a more accurate assessment?

Ah, that Trim time definitely backs up the argument for sub 4. If you're confident that you'll keep things nice and disciplined in the early going then I think I'd rather the extra space off the back of wave 2. The 4 hour pacers draw a huge crowd.

Edit: on the training paces - hopefully you've been tipping away at 10 min/miles the majority of the time? Strava is fun though

Sunday Runner

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Something in the region of 4:20 seems like a decent goal for you. There might be scope for improvement on that based on the fact that your HM and 10 mile were tough races, but setting out with that target in mind seems like a decent strategy.

Hopefully your knee issue turns out to be minor. If it does, please do take the paces down a touch for the next month

You are right - running the first half too fast is inviting disaster. As always, these predictions are by no means an exact science - we are only making educated estimates based on the information available. No one knows how they are going to fare over the cloisng miles, but by starting conservatively you are giving yourself the best chance to run a successful marathon.

Thanks for that Mr.G! I'm happy enough with that plan.

I am a day behind on the running plan for this week, but i'll be grand for the rest of the week though. I had such a long day yesterday - flight at the crack of dawn and again I got home, it was lashing rain and I had been out of the house since 4am. I changed into my gear and back out of it again as quick! Went out this morning instead and I'm feeling a bit more positive. I had a dream/nightmare that I was halfway through the marathon and I had forgotten to wear my watch. I'm no dream expert, but guess what's on my mind?!

Planning for my LSR this Saturday with a friend, providing she gets the all clear from the physio this evening.

Have a good evening all. Almost another week gone! :D:D

passinginterest

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

How did you find the pace band for the Half? Seemed to work well for you anyway!

Yeah I was happy with it. Second time I’ve used one, I had one for Wicklow earlier in the year, it was a bit more guesswork but similarly allowed for taking it easier on the climbs and worked well. It’s good to have a reminder of where to back off and when to push a bit.

Leaning towards self pacing now too, starting at the very back of wave 2. I’ve learned a fair bit about pacing and discipline that should help keep things in check. No intention of even attempting to chase lost time before mile 23!!

I should add, I think I used a 3.50 pace band in 2014, it was the standard one from the expo. I panicked about being over a minute behind after a couple of miles, and worked way too hard to get to half way on schedule. A tough lesson to learn and one of the main reasons I’ve been following this thread the last few years and was determined to use this plan if I ever made another attempt.

Mr. Guappa

Bananaleaf wrote: »

When I started the journey I wanted 4:30. I figured out quite early on that while this may be achievable at some stage in my life, it is a goal for another marathon.

I put 2 recent race times into a pace calculator that was shared with us on this thread and it came up with a time of 4:48. So, I rounded that up and came up with 4:50.

4:48 means 11:00min/m. My PMP runs have been at about 10:55 so I think that somewhere deep down, my ego wants me to find a bit of strength in the latter part of the race and maybe get a 4:45

I would have said 4:45 was an attainable time for you. Starting out closer to 4:50 pace and seeing if you've something in the legs late on is a sound strategy.

Karlos80 wrote: »

Target for DCM : 4h10m
Reason(s)
1. Marathon 1 (2013) was ran in 4h20m. I feel fitter, more prepared, better educated this time.
2. Had aspirational hopes of running a Sub-4hr many moons ago, but revised this out based on
(a) missing a couple of week training with injury
(b) advice here, research, and needing a more substantial mileage base
3. I find a target gives me more motivation, both to train, to push for, to remain disciplined. Without a target I tend to drift and make up random aims.
4. Judgement based on HM time.
5. Today's recovery run was first 'pain free' run in 5 weeks. Delighted, so soon after yesterday. Last mention of the inj*** word.
6. Confidence/Notions/Dilusion? Haha

Yeah I'd be happy enough with a 4:10 target too. With the 10 or so days missed, maybe lean slightly over that and see how you are coming into the last quarter of the race. I think the HM will stand to you in terms of recognising the discipline required to keep the pace in check over the opening stages.

Mr. Guappa

Doc76 wrote: »

I usually do my LSR on Fridays so on HH plan would I be ok doing the 4 miler on Sunday instead of Thursday which I would make my rest day? So it would be 3 Monday 3 Tuesday 7 Wednesday rest Thursday 14 Friday 4 Sunday with maybe 2-3 mile recovery on the Saturday?

Re: homework thinking under the 5 hr mark maybe around 4:50? PMP around 11 min/miles probably starting a bit slower than that and gradually picking up the pace?

Doc76 wrote: »

This is super helpful, Mr G and Huzzah thanks. That would put me at approx 11:15 min miles which would be a 4:55 marathon... think this is what I’ll aim for give or take a few minutes

Yep - I think you've got a good looking strategy there. Maybe leaning more towards the 5:00 and seeing how the day unfolds.

I don't think we got back to you about the structure of your week - and I see it's changed now anyway. Sorry

Clareview wrote: »

Target range for DCM: 4.22 - 4.30!

Recent race times:
5km - 23.40,
8km - 39.10,
Race series events:
SD10km - 51.15,
FD10miler - 1hr 32mins
Dublin HM - 2.05.35


At this point and considering the HM race at the weekend, getting under 4hrs30mins would be great.
LSR's in most recent weeks over 29km and 32km have been ran at approx 6.32/km pace and have felt reasonably good (done in Phoenix Park & castleknock using 2 big loops).

I think if I heed the advice re a slower first 7 miles or so on the day then I can aim for under 4hrs30mins!

Items to keep on top of over next 5 weeks:
- sleep
- stretching and foam rolling
- clean diet

That HM time would suggest that 4:35 might be a better target time. But that wasn't a very well executed race, so there may be scope to nudge towards 4:30. Start with 4:35 in mind and see how you go.

In the meantime, your list is missing one very important item - SLOW DOWN
6:32/km is marathon pace for a 4:35 marathon, which means you've been running those long runs at PMP. Knock that pace back to at least 7min/km.

Dante

Can anyone recommend any lightweight belts for holding energy gels? Will probably have 6 SIS gels on the day.

coogy

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

Can anyone recommend any lightweight belts for holding energy gels? Will probably have 6 SIS gels on the day.

You can order gel sachet belts on Amazon:

https://www.google.com/search?q=high+5+gel+sachet+belt&client=ms-android-h3g-ie-revc&source=android-browser&prmd=isvn&sxsrf=ACYBGNRENslpTsqx82R5_v2SatoXjbb1DQ:1569532219483&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzjp-Ts-_kAhUB-YUKHSS6ByUQ_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=360&bih=668&dpr=2#imgrc=zhrBBecyPa_UgM

I've never used one but they look like they'd do the job!

eabha19

Is there any harm in stretching the 20 miler to 22 miles for psychological benefit more than anything else? Think it would give me more confidence to have that done going into the marathon.

Clareview

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Yep - I think you've got a good looking strategy there. Maybe leaning more towards the 5:00 and seeing how the day unfolds.

I don't think we got back to you about the structure of your week - and I see it's changed now anyway. Sorry




That HM time would suggest that 4:35 might be a better target time. But that wasn't a very well executed race, so there may be scope to nudge towards 4:30. Start with 4:35 in mind and see how you go.

In the meantime, your list is missing one very important item - SLOW DOWN
6:32/km is marathon pace for a 4:35 marathon, which means you've been running those long runs at PMP. Knock that pace back to at least 7min/km.

Thank you!! Note for LSR this weekend to be brought back in pace duly noted!!

Lazare

passinginterest wrote: »

I’ve been tinkering with a pace plan, looking at a few calculators including the Garmin pacepro. I’m thinking something like this;
9.20, 9.20, 9.29, 9.20, 9.22, 9.20, 9.20, 9.01, 8.58, 9.05, 9.10, 9.06, 9.08 (Half 2.00.58) 9.12, 9.06, 9.01, 9.06, 8.57, 8.56, 8.56, 9.02, 9.05, 8.48, 8.51, 9.00, 9.01 (Finish 3.58.54)
Gives a bit of leeway if the pickup isn’t quiet there for the last 4 miles and the extra distance.

skyblue46 wrote: »

That's not a bad looking plan. It seems to be very similar to the splits achieved by Lazare in the table I posted above. He was more than happy with his strategy afterwards and executed it to a tee.

Cheers Sean. Yeah, I was really happy with how it turned out.

Splits were..
9:41
9:23
9:33
9:06
9:21
9:25
9:09
8:39
8:36
8:44
9:23
8:53
8:46
8:55
8:58
8:46
8:41
8:33
8:33
8:53
9:13
9:23
9:04
9:13
9:31
8:49
(8:08)
3:58:08
I used a course specific pace band from www.mymarathonpace.com
It's likely already been linked in here but I would highly recommend it. It played a vital role in making my debut marathon everything I hoped it would be.

Am insanely jealous of you guys right now, you're in for the most amazing experience of your lives. And it's almost here.

Huzzah!

eabha19 wrote: »

Is there any harm in stretching the 20 miler to 22 miles for psychological benefit more than anything else? Think it would give me more confidence to have that done going into the marathon.

Nope. It’s of no benefit whatsoever and it’s not recommended for novices to do 22 milers. It would take a very long time and it’s just not worth it. I get the psychological point but look at all the miles you’ve run to date in training for DCM: they’re what will get you to the finish line, not an extra two miles added to the end of an LSR. I will dig out some posts on this when I’m at a computer.

Doc76

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I don't think we got back to you about the structure of your week - and I see it's changed now anyway. Sorry

No worries at all! Felt flu-ish yesterday so planning to have today and tomorrow as rest days and do 14 mile LSR on Sunday morning now.

smashiner

Doc76 wrote: »

No worries at all! Felt flu-ish yesterday so planning to have today and tomorrow as rest days and do 14 mile LSR on Sunday morning now.

Hope that you are feeling better soon, a few days rest is totally the right thing to do if you are feeling a bit crappy.

Just a small word to all Novices on minding the body in the coming weeks as our immune systems might be a bit low due to all of the running that we are doing lately. Make sure that you get plenty of rest,go to bed half and hour earlier etc (I sound like my Mam there), stay hydrated, consume/drink plenty of vitamin C to try to stave off colds and sniffles. My DCM debut in 2014 was torpedoed by man flu and I had a tough day out, so wash your hands 17 times a day and avoid public transport/cinemas/ large social gatherings/people in general and live in warm cave on your own for the next few weeks too, just to be safe....:eek::eek::eek:

I have entered the Fast Lane Half Marathon this Sunday in Clondalkin, it looks like a fast flat course, so I might just give it a bit of welly (not full tilt mind you) to see where I am at for the big day. Then it is one more LSR the following weekend and then beloved TAPER TIME, when we all will go a bit mad with 'Maranoia', thinking about the DCM.......happy Friday....we are nearly there

Laineyfrecks

smashiner wrote: »

Hope that you are feeling better soon, a few days rest is totally the right thing to do if you are feeling a bit crappy.

Just a small word to all Novices on minding the body in the coming weeks as our immune systems might be a bit low due to all of the running that we are doing lately. Make sure that you get plenty of rest,go to bed half and hour earlier etc (I sound like my Mam there), stay hydrated, consume/drink plenty of vitamin C to try to stave off colds and sniffles. My DCM debut in 2014 was torpedoed by man flu and I had a tough day out, so wash your hands 17 times a day and avoid public transport/cinemas/ large social gatherings/people in general and live in warm cave on your own for the next few weeks too, just to be safe....:eek::eek::eek:

I have entered the Fast Lane Half Marathon this Sunday in Clondalkin, it looks like a fast flat course, so I might just give it a bit of welly (not full tilt mind you) to see where I am at for the big day. Then it is one more LSR the following weekend and then beloved TAPER TIME, when we all will go a bit mad with 'Maranoia', thinking about the DCM.......happy Friday....we are nearly there

A warm cave sounds just about perfect right now :eek:

Mr. Guappa

Fraggle07 wrote: »

I'm thinking 11min/m so 4:50.
I'm not very hung up about a particular time, my focus is to finish.

Your HM time from March would suggest you are capable of going around in 4:40, but you did miss the bulk of 4 weeks with the injury, so that is obviously going to have some impact, and makes it trickier to provide a target time. I think it's better to be over-cautious in this instance, and go out with a 5 hour target and see how things progress. So treat the 26.2 miles very much as a 20 mile run and a 10k race.

eabha19 wrote: »

This happens me every time so I now try to remember to copy the message firsts before I press post so I can paste it back in after I log back in! Glad it's not just me!

As for marathon goal I had been saying 4:30 as my realistic goal and 4:20 as my dream but after yesterday I'm definitely scrapping any thoughts of 4:20 and am wondering about re-thinking 4:30 too.

Re going out slow on the day do you mean on target pace or slower than target pace? I have to say that I don't have much faith in myself managing a negative split in a long race. I always feel that my legs will be too tired to make up time in the second half of a race so if I'm honest in most of my pbs for longer runs there was an element of banking up a few seconds in the early miles when my legs are fresher - only 5 seconds per km or so and usually not intentionally but it makes me a bit unsure about starting out too slow. I guess I feel that no matter how slow I start it's going to be fierce unlikely that I'll be getting a second wind in Clonskeagh so I may aswell at least keep to target pace at the beginning.

I definitely would not scrap thoughts of 4:30 anyway - you are well able for that, and more, with a smartly run race. You started the HM at the weekend at target pace and that led to a pretty torrid time later on - you saw yourself how paces can fall off a cliff once the going gets tough. On the DCM course, no amount of time banked by starting fast is going to cancel out the resultant time lost later on.

You mentioned you like running with pacers - I think starting out with the 4:30 group is a decent strategy. I'd wager you'll be feeling plenty strong after 18/20 miles and have something left to leave the pacers behind.

py

smashiner wrote: »

Hope that you are feeling better soon, a few days rest is totally the right thing to do if you are feeling a bit crappy.

Just a small word to all Novices on minding the body in the coming weeks as our immune systems might be a bit low due to all of the running that we are doing lately.

On that note, there is a potential storm approaching from the Atlantic towards the end of next week so it's going to get wet and wild around the coast (mostly the South) so if you're getting out running make sure that you're running attire is suitable for the conditions. It'll be the last week before the taper, don't let the weather but a dampener (:pac:) on it.

eabha19

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Your HM time from March would suggest you are capable of going around in 4:40, but you did miss the bulk of 4 weeks with the injury, so that is obviously going to have some impact, and makes it trickier to provide a target time. I think it's better to be over-cautious in this instance, and go out with a 5 hour target and see how things progress. So treat the 26.2 miles very much as a 20 mile run and a 10k race.



I definitely would not scrap thoughts of 4:30 anyway - you are well able for that, and more, with a smartly run race. You started the HM at the weekend at target pace and that led to a pretty torrid time later on - you saw yourself how paces can fall off a cliff once the going gets tough. On the DCM course, no amount of time banked by starting fast is going to cancel out the resultant time lost later on.

You mentioned you like running with pacers - I think starting out with the 4:30 group is a decent strategy. I'd wager you'll be feeling plenty strong after 18/20 miles and have something left to leave the pacers behind.

Thanks for that. I'm very happy to do that - in fairness at this stage I just want to have a strategy that gets me home in one piece feeling happy rather than any particular time. In fairness it's only us runners who obsess about times - my sister was reminding me that the difference between a 4hr 20 and a 4hr 45 marathon means very little, the medal is the same!!

Huzzah!

eabha19 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'm very happy to do that - in fairness at this stage I just want to have a strategy that gets me home in one piece feeling happy rather than any particular time. In fairness it's only us runners who obsess about times - my sister was reminding me that the difference between a 4hr 20 and a 4hr 45 marathon means very little, the medal is the same!!

That's what I wanted more than anything too. I trained for 4:30 but decided to run at 4:40 pace and I had such a great time that I don't regret my decision at all.

ariana`

eabha19 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'm very happy to do that - in fairness at this stage I just want to have a strategy that gets me home in one piece feeling happy rather than any particular time. In fairness it's only us runners who obsess about times - my sister was reminding me that the difference between a 4hr 20 and a 4hr 45 marathon means very little, the medal is the same!!

Nobody will even ask your time! They will ask everything else but your time You have a great attitude.

Huzzah!

greentea is just wrong wrote: »

Feeling nervous now for the full thing & also not sure about how to pace myself for the full!

Sorry - I should have addressed this in my earlier response to your post. Do you have any inkling of what you'll aim for on the day? There's lots of time to decide, so no pressure or anything!

Laineyfrecks

Homework:
With all our build up races now behind us, thoughts are inevitably turning towards DCM targets. So, I'm interested to see what everyone is thinking before we crush your dreams. Please do give the reasoning behind what you've come up with as a target time.[/quote]

Just caught up will all the race reports - well done to all

My target is sub 4 & at the beginning of this journey i would have only wanted that but now with all my training & sacrafices i'm happy to say i wouldn't be too disappointed if i didn't get that. It has & still is an incredible journey & i have gained so much advice & experience from this thread which i am very grateful for. Like many others here i really just want to finish the course & feel proud of all that i have achieved in the short space of time

Edit : My dream time after my half marathon & commitment to training is 3.45/50 again feel free to advise

skyblue46

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

My target is sub 4 & at the beginning of this journey i would have only wanted that but now with all my training & sacrafices i'm happy to say i wouldn't be too disappointed if i didn't get that. It has & still is an incredible journey & i have gained so much advice & experience from this thread which i am very grateful for. Like many others here i really just want to finish the course & feel proud of all that i have achieved in the short space of time

Edit : My dream time after my half marathon & commitment to training is 3.45/50 again feel free to advise

I'll advise you to never again be a sandbagger! Haha. It's a word I noticed on my training log once or twice last year! LMAO

Laineyfrecks

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just caught up will all the race reports - well done to all

My target is sub 4 & at the beginning of this journey i would have only wanted that but now with all my training & sacrafices i'm happy to say i wouldn't be too disappointed if i didn't get that. It has & still is an incredible journey & i have gained so much advice & experience from this thread which i am very grateful for. Like many others here i really just want to finish the course & feel proud of all that i have achieved in the short space of time

Edit : My dream time after my half marathon & commitment to training is 3.45/50 again feel free to advise

I'll advise you to never again be a sandbagger! Haha. It's a word I noticed on my training log once or twice last year! LMAO[/quote]

Haha horrible word!!! Look its sometimes hard laying your dreams out there to possibly get crushed:eek: but i'm a big girl so i can handle it

Bananaleaf

Good luck to everyone doing LSRs tomorrow and Sunday. This, apart from marathon day, will be the last 5am start for me. Wow. Don't know whether to rejoice or be nervous about that! Well done to those who have it done already

Mr. Guappa

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Just caught up will all the race reports - well done to all

My target is sub 4 & at the beginning of this journey i would have only wanted that but now with all my training & sacrafices i'm happy to say i wouldn't be too disappointed if i didn't get that. It has & still is an incredible journey & i have gained so much advice & experience from this thread which i am very grateful for. Like many others here i really just want to finish the course & feel proud of all that i have achieved in the short space of time

Edit : My dream time after my half marathon & commitment to training is 3.45/50 again feel free to advise

That's a great attitude. Your HM time would suggest that you've a shot at dipping under 3:50 in the marathon. I'm not sure there is much point in being more aggressive than that, especially for your first. As eabha19 and ariana' mentioned, not too many people will care if you finish in 3:47 or 3:57.

IIRC, you were assigned to wave 4 - have you enquired about moving up? Wave 2 would seem more appropriate.

Unknownability wrote: »

Slightly late with last weeks update.

As mentioned previously had a bit of a falling out of love with running so I took three consecutive days off, the longest since the plan started.

I then came back to the plan on Tuesday and did 4 miles 8 miles 4 miles all easy this then led into Saturdays lsr of 18 miles.

This lsr was by far the easiest and took the least out of me, even threw in the last mile which is all uphill at PMP. Average pace was 9'03 mins a mile.

So what is my marathon time?

5k 19'19 (2019)
10k never done one
10 mile 73 mins (2019)
Half 1'35.30 (2019)

Initially I wanted to go sub 3'20 but now I've relaxed that and would be happy with finishing injury free while enjoying it.

I want to use this to see if I actually enjoy the experience, if I do I can then try run them fast.

Most likely will go out with the 3'30 pacers and take it from there.

Honestly, I think 3:30 is just a touch on the optimistic side. I know you backed off in the closing few miles of Tullamore to mind the hamstring, so we can probably allow 90 seconds for that? Even still, given that you are very new to running it's a big ask (not impossible) to convert a 1:34 HM to a 3:30 full. Your weekly mileage, while entirely appropriate for someone new to running, is not at the type of level that most 3:30 runners would have. I guess it comes down to how much you want to go after that 3:30 - even if you go for it I wouldn't advise sticking to the pacers. They will run even splits - you want to be leaving them move away from you in the first seven miles.

rizzee

Coffee & berocca in, 25km in the rain here I come!

Unknownability

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Honestly, I think 3:30 is just a touch on the optimistic side. I know you backed off in the closing few miles of Tullamore to mind the hamstring, so we can probably allow 90 seconds for that? Even still, given that you are very new to running it's a big ask (not impossible) to convert a 1:34 HM to a 3:30 full. Your weekly mileage, while entirely appropriate for someone new to running, is not at the type of level that most 3:30 runners would have. I guess it comes down to how much you want to go after that 3:30 - even if you go for it I wouldn't advise sticking to the pacers. They will run even splits - you want to be leaving them move away from you in the first seven miles.

Thanks, it'll be interesting to see how it works out. I've been averaging 140 miles a month for the past 3 months

A lot will come down to how it goes on the day, my hamstring is still not 100%.

I did my LSR last night and it was a terrible decision.

After spending over 4hrs in a car, having no dinner and two beers I decided to go out and do the run at 730.

It lashed from start to finish, should've stopped as I was shivering and couldn't feel my legs.

I did it around housing estates which was another terrible idea, I was doing 180° turns every minute or so, could get absolutely no momentum.

The killer was during the last 3 miles I literally ran into a number of locked gates that stopped me in my tracks.

Huzzah!

rizzee wrote: »

Coffee & berocca in, 25km in the rain here I come!

The breakfast of champions.

frash

Up at 6am, out the door by 6:15.

18 miles done.

Tried one of those bloc jelly things.
Tasty