Farmers should be forced to cut their emissions

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

I don't want everyone to like it, or everyone to eat meat. I want everyone to have a choice and not be abused or belittled for making their choice, there is currently a narritive backed by big business to demonise meat eaters..

In fairness, look at the abuse vegans get. They seem to be despised.

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness, look at the abuse vegans get. They seem to be despised.

Their intolerance of other is.

Where farmers are happy to let vegans do their own thing.
Extremist Vegans are not, they demonise and despise farmers, abuse and demean their way of life. Protesting on private property which is actually trespassing.

If all vegans went quiet and left everybody to their own personal lifestyle choices they would be forgotten quickly. Quicker than they would like to beleive actually.

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

can someone tell me why we had to pay for cattle feed last summer? didn't farmers run out of food for cows after it was sunny for 2 weeks? does that not maybe indicate there are too many cows here?

You've ignored my previous email which went through the actual facts, it also offered to teach you music, quid pro quo and all that

Last year we had a partial drought from May 28th to July 25th and a full drought from June 18th to July 14th. Other countries work with summer long droughts because they are expected, we in Ireland do not expect a drought. In much the same way Dublin doesn't have gondolas but sometimes the streets are flooded.

I suspect at this stage you've realised that you dont have a notion about what you're talking about and that some other posters do but you're either too stubborn or too stupid to admit that or at least walk away. Good luck with that,probably comes from being a teacher

I've already answered your question on whether we should grow our agriculture sector but here you go again

Green&Red wrote: »

Ireland is THE most efficient and green country in the world to produce beef and dairy, the Origin Green project is a massive success coupled with our grass based diet. We should be growing our agricultural industries as we can do it better than any other country in the world.

the_syco

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe some of them. Why do we need 7 million if we export 90%?

The cows goto places that don't have the room or climate for cows.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

are you seriously this thick?

If cows were not needed, they'd be killed off so that the land that they're on now could be used to grow plants. You'd see them in a zoo, but there's no reason for them to exist other than meat and dairy.

Thelonious Monk

Green&Red wrote: »

You've ignored my previous email which went through the actual facts, it also offered to teach you music, quid pro quo and all that

Last year we had a partial drought from May 28th to July 25th and a full drought from June 18th to July 14th. Other countries work with summer long droughts because they are expected, we in Ireland do not expect a drought. In much the same way Dublin doesn't have gondolas but sometimes the streets are flooded.

I suspect at this stage you've realised that you dont have a notion about what you're talking about and that some other posters do but you're either too stubborn or too stupid to admit that or at least walk away. Good luck with that,probably comes from being a teacher

I've already answered your question on whether we should grow our agriculture sector but here you go again

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

Zirconia

_Brian wrote: »

Their intolerance of other is.

Where farmers are happy to let vegans do their own thing.
Vegans are not, they demonise and despise farmers, abuse and demean their way of life. Protesting on private property which is actually trespassing.

This attitude towards vegans is a huge issue - it's a generalization and another form of discrimination, like saying Muslims are all terrorists!

You probably know loads of Vegetarians and Vegans - you know them, but you don't actually realize they are Vegetarians / Vegans. Most of them do not protest or push their personal choices in other peoples faces. It's only a minority that do such things but then you go and group us all into the same category.

I'm a vegan, have been since I was a child and I don't care what other people eat meat or not. My own children are not vegan/vegetarian and I never pushed them towards my personal choices (though I explained why, but only when asked). I even cooked them dinners regularly with chicken etc., though it was an unpleasant task for me, I didn't want to restrict their diet based on what I liked vs what they liked.

Thelonious Monk

the_syco wrote: »

The cows goto places that don't have the room or climate for cows.


If cows were not needed, they'd be killed off so that the land that they're on now could be used to grow plants. You'd see them in a zoo, but there's no reason for them to exist other than meat and dairy.

Well would you rather never exist or just be bred to be kept pregnant the whole time for dairy or to be slaughtered for meat?

Edgware

Patrick Quirke should have cut back on his emissions

Thelonious Monk

Edgware wrote: »

Patrick Quirke should have cut backon his emissions

apparently he was quite the playa in the dairy industry (as well as with the ladies wink wink)

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well would you rather never exist or just be bred to be kept pregnant the whole time for dairy or to be slaughtered for meat?

Firstly a bit of housekeeping..
pregnant referrs to humans, cows are "in calf", its different, we should never use human terms for animals, its inappropriate and demeans humans.


In the wild cows would be in calf just the same amount, they come into heat typically 28/30 days after calving down and the nearest bull would put her in calf immeditaly, actually modern farming prevents allot of inbreeding that would occur in the wild producing malformed and weak calves destin to die as the herd couldnt tend to their needs..


Farmers typically give the cow a break to build reserves and to control their calving date to a suitable time, so actually they spend a lower % of their life in calf on a farm than they would if thewy were wild creatures.



Its not like lots of cows choose not to have calves in the wild but are forced into calf on farms, its just part of their natural cycle, its natural.


For the most they live happy content lives on farms, farms thrive on healthy happy animals, sick unhappy animals are poor producers and overall herd health will decline..


Farmers care for livestock, its a big myth perpretrated by the opposition that they abuse animals.. only monsters do that.

_Brian

Zirconia wrote: »

This attitude towards vegans is a huge issue - it's a generalization and another form of discrimination, like saying Muslims are all terrorists!

You probably know loads of Vegetarians and Vegans - you know them, but you don't actually realize they are Vegetarians / Vegans. Most of them do not protest or push their personal choices in other peoples faces. It's only a minority that do such things but then you go and group us all into the same category.

I'm a vegan, have been since I was a child and I don't care what other people eat meat or not. My own children are not vegan/vegetarian and I never pushed them towards my personal choices (though I explained why, but only when asked). I even cooked them dinners regularly with chicken etc., though it was an unpleasant task for me, I didn't want to restrict their diet based on what I liked vs what they liked.

At least non extremist muslims come out and denounce actions of extremists...


Perhaps we should see more of vegans condeming illegal and imorral acts by their extremist brethern.

I edited my post above to referr to extremist vegans as being the intolerant ones in society.

the_syco

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

The rainforest is disappearing to make room for crops.

Newflash; the people who grow plants are also called farmers.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well would you rather never exist or just be bred to be kept pregnant the whole time for dairy or to be slaughtered for meat?

Would you prefer never to work, or just be kept alive to work, and breed to make other humans to work as well?

Also, cows don't know any better. They live their lives, get sucked dry twice a day for their milk, and allowed to eat as much as they want.

StereoSound

Every living thing has a right to fart, not the farmers fault their cows fart themselves to sleep every night.

_Brian

StereoSound wrote: »

Every living thing has a right to fart, not the farmers fault their cows fart themselves to sleep every night.

Just from an educational perspective.

It’s methame burped up that is under consideration from an environmental perspective.

Much work on supplements in the form of seaweed extracts and biochar is being done to negate this issue.

_Brian

the_syco wrote: »

The rainforest is disappearing to make room for crops.

.

And cheap nasty untraceable beef in fairness.

The eu should have a ban on all imports of raw materials or products produced in countries where deforestation is happening. We shouldn’t be supporting this on any way but rather actively discouraging it through financial implications of product avoidance.

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

Farmers are subsidized because there is a global food shortage and to make it attractive to people they give grants. Even with that farmers struggle, for majority in Ireland its a part time gig.

I'm not sure why you would bring that up, it has very little to do with climate change, it seems to be a separate beef you have with farmers

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

And cheap nasty untraceable beef in fairness.

The eu should have a ban on all imports of raw materials or products produced in countries where deforestation is happening. We shouldn’t be supporting this on any way but rather actively discouraging it through financial implications of product avoidance.

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

ToBeFrank123

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

Indeed helped by the British stealing our timber for their ships.

Ireland wasn’t just one big forest though. Natural breaks would have existed through rife and grazing of deer etc, but as humans grew land was cleared for farming, humans wouldn’t have survived otherwise.

But we’re in a reaforestation phase as is every responsible country. We’re not chomping down pristine rainforest for cheap timber and to grow untraceable beef.

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land

Are you anywhere near realising that you dont have a notion of what your arguing about?

Thelonious Monk

Green&Red wrote: »

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land

Are you anywhere near realising that you dont have a notion of what your arguing about?

I would have thought land being cleared for farming was one of the reason there aren't many trees in Ireland.
Poor countries are doing the same now and rich countries are shaming them for it, it just seems a bit rich, for want of a better word.

_Brian

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

Unjustified taxes based on flawed notion that farming is a problem when in fact farming isn’t.
That’s just tax for tax sake rather than evidence based decisions.

The initial report that identified beef farming as a problem included the carbon release from felling trees to clear land for farming, how is that relative to current beef production where land has been farmed and sequestering carbon for generations.

Looknto Australia, they have donenthenresearchnajd agreed that beef farming can be a net sequestration of carbon and so have put a system of supports on place to encourage suitable farming practices.

BarryD2

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem is this:
Farms need to keep getting bigger and more intense since cost of living, inputs and so on rise but the price the farmer is paid doesn't change much year to year, sometimes good, sometimes very bad.
This encourages farms to get bigger to be more efficient.

What is encouraging more and more cows and cattle in general is a system that is making family farms less and less viable.
If we want to put a cap on things, then more needs to be done to encourage and support less intensive farming while making it a viable option.
The government's agricultural plan is to increase food exports, to increase intensification and reduce overall farmer numbers because this is where it all leads to currently- less farmers but more cattle.

There are no real long term measures to support less intensive and thus less viable operations which are most likely the best for the environment.
The policies push for further intensification.

I think this is a fair summation but it's also the rub. What many perceive is that citizens at large (inc farmers) will be asked to pay higher carbon taxes to encourage them to cut back and slow down what is said to be climate change. People may well be happy to do this but if at the same time they see another sector of society increasing stocking levels and emitting more harmful gases, well they ain't going to be happy. No equity there.

So what is needed is to persuade the public both to pay higher carbon taxes and more for food stuffs. They might do this if they had some sort of guarantee that extra funds going towards farming wasn't just swallowed up as more profit to the bottom line. That actually paying more would result in Irish farmers getting a higher return and therefore cutting production. The challenge is there for the agricultural industry to prove this I guess?

BarryD2

Green&Red wrote: »

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land?

Hold on now, you're gilding the lily a bit there!! If it was illegal to cut down trees on farms, many of my neighbours would be up in the courts! To clear a forest would require a felling licence I think but not trees in ditches and scrublands etc. Travel the countryside anywhere today and you'll come across ditches / hedgerows/ scrubland that have been cut down and grubbed out in order to enlarge fields etc.

ToBeFrank123

_Brian wrote: »

Unjustified taxes based on flawed notion that farming is a problem when in fact farming isn’t.
That’s just tax for tax sake rather than evidence based decisions.

The initial report that identified beef farming as a problem included the carbon release from felling trees to clear land for farming, how is that relative to current beef production where land has been farmed and sequestering carbon for generations.

Looknto Australia, they have donenthenresearchnajd agreed that beef farming can be a net sequestration of carbon and so have put a system of supports on place to encourage suitable farming practices.

Irish cattle produce huge amounts of methane which is far worse as a cause of emissions and global warming than other sources. I think it accounts for something like 20% or Irish emissions.

DEFTLEFTHAND

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

Why is the solution to all these green problems always more tax?

Many farms are propped up the EU as it is, imposing high rates of tax on beef is only going to put further strain on the system.

Europe sinks as the foreign beef market takes over.

_Brian

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Irish cattle produce huge amounts of methane which is far worse as a cause of emissions and global warming than other sources. I think it accounts for something like 20% or Irish emissions.

If however the carbon being sequestered into soils is taken into account it would balance of not exceed that.

Australia have quantified this and Teagasc along with their counterparts in some other EU countries are working on a similar plan.

_Brian

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why is the solution to all these green problems always more tax?

Many farms are propped up the EU as it is, imposing high rates of tax on beef is only going to put further strain on the system.

Europe sinks as the foreign beef market takes over.

Tats it, beef from places like Brazil or Argentina where rainforests is being hacked down to produce it and animals have zero traceability regarding medicines.

What’s the environmental cost of that.

Plus we’d be loosing our food security and relying on imports to feed us

davidk1394

zapitastas wrote: »

You would be a lot safer eating Irish beef than chicken or fish. You would never really catch someone farming chickens that would consume their own product. Chicken and pig farming is grotesque in relation to beef where the livestock has been pasture reared

Very true. I draw pig slurry out of piggerys. Pigs probably have the most miserable existence out of all farm animals. So much so that I’m cutting back big time on the amount of pork I eat

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I would have thought land being cleared for farming was one of the reason there aren't many trees in Ireland.
Poor countries are doing the same now and rich countries are shaming them for it, it just seems a bit rich, for want of a better word.

You seem to think a lot of things that are unfounded.
As I said earlier we’re at a 350yr high

It’s centuries since Ireland’s deforestation