Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

launish116

bilston wrote: »

And when our back row get manshamed against Connacht it will merely illustrate the point more.

Professional sport for you...Ulster are no angels either.

I still don't understand why McCann isn't getting more of a chance.

We’re almost at the stage I want IRFU to only allow us to sign forwards on the condition academy players get x amounts minutes/or on bench. Almost force us to integrate them.

No excuse physically either, we’ve basically had a 4-6 month lockdown/preseason.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Have to say many of my fellow Ulster fans on here seem to be bigger people than me! I have to say I'm a little less forgiving of Coetzee in all of this, but as I say it's his career so fair enough he will do what he has to do. But I still think Ulster have done a lot for him so it will be a sore point.

bilston you’re turning into me, slowly but surely.

molloyjh

Its not just his own career. Its his own life and that of his family. No doubt Covid has changed perspective for a lot of people, especially those living away from home. Quite how some people can't see and understand that is a little frightening tbh. It is 100% understandable that in the current environment some are going to want to go home.

Petries tweet was poor form. He can be pissed off all he wants, but voicing it publicly like that is incredibly unprofessional.

That said, we dont know the circumstances. Did Coetzee agree a deal with Bulls and just return to Ulster and drop it on them? Did he have discussions with Bulls but not agree anything until he spoke to Ulster? If it was the former then Ulster have every right to be pissed off about it (but should still be handling that professionally).

If it was the latter then they just need to get the f*** over it. Coetzee isn't a piece of property that Ulster own. He is a human being with his own personal needs that will change over time. He also has a family whose needs will change too. In a time of a global pandemic that has killed almost 2 million (that we know of) this cannot and should not be ignored.

awec

I would argue that a player not seeing out a contract that they signed is unprofessional.

There’s a whole lot of fuss over nothing around that tweet. As if Ulster are supposed to roll over and have their belly’s tickled.

“Oh that’s great Marcell, all the best marcell, I wish you every success marcell.” Pass me the sick bucket.

I hope he wins nothing with the Bulls.

connemara man

It's not an either or.

People can understand that this year has changed people's perspectives and see why he's want to move home

But at the same time be annoyed about the fact that, Ulster stood by him through injury and are losing him early, and had to scramble after the bulls tweet it out on Christmas Day.

Also given how distrusting some vocal Ulster fans are of the IRFU and the current monetary situation Petrie is right to come out and say what he has. His wording could have been more political in nature

launish116

connemara man wrote: »

It's not an either or.

People can understand that this year has changed people's perspectives and see why he's want to move home

But at the same time be annoyed about the fact that, Ulster stood by him through injury and are losing him early, and had to scramble after the bulls tweet it out on Christmas Day.

Also given how distrusting some vocal Ulster fans are of the IRFU and the current monetary situation Petrie is right to come out and say what he has. His wording could have been more political in nature

If anything he’s played it smart, when it comes to other contracts Kinda forced IRFU hand a little.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I would argue that a player not seeing out a contract that they signed is unprofessional.

There’s a whole lot of fuss over nothing around that tweet. As if Ulster are supposed to roll over and have their belly’s tickled.

“Oh that’s great Marcell, all the best marcell, I wish you every success marcell.” Pass me the sick bucket.

I hope he wins nothing with the Bulls.

Thats just spite. Nothing more. And thats petty and small.

Professionals contracts are ended early all the time, all over the world, by employers and employees, for all sorts of reasons. No contract gives an employer ownership over an individual. If you cant accept a man doing right by himself and his family ahead of his employer then I can't help you there. Its unrealistic and unfair to expect anything else.

Theres a real level of entitlement to some of the comments here, demanding a guy put Ulster ahead of everything else. In no uncertain terms, f*** that. If any employer of mine had that attitude I'd be out of there like a shot.

As for Petrie, I never said he should accept this all smiles etc. I said he can be pissed off all he likes. But he needs to remain professional too. And that tweet isn't professional. If you're setting below par standards at the top then that filters through the organisation. No doubt Leinster were pissed off with how things went with guys like Roux and Douglas, but you just have to get on with it. If things aren't working for the player then there's nothing you can do other than let them go and wish them well. Unless they acting the dick in how they went about it. In which case you deal with that direct with the player. You don't do it in public.

mfceiling

On a brighter note...tg4 is showing the 2012 HC Final.

molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

On a brighter note...tg4 is showing the 2012 HC Final.

I had a word.... :pac:

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

On a brighter note...tg4 is showing the 2012 HC Final.

Ha...definitely the wrong thread mcfeiling!

bilston

I guess Carter will most likely be getting a new contract now...probably not a bad thing all things considered...we are very light in the row. He is becoming a quietly effective player for us. Admittedly that's the minimum you'd expect from a NIQ, but we can't really afford to lose him

sydthebeat

He's 29.

He'll have spent five years in a white shirt with no return.... While his youths team mates win a world Cup

Does anybody really blame him for getting out of dodge??

Dave_The_Sheep

Well, he got paid for two years without really playing a whole lot. That's not a bad return. If I could spend 50-75% of my time at work getting paid while being in convalescence, I'd be a lucky lucky man (I have not worked out the percentages, I'm just jealous).

Utah_Saint

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Well, he got paid for two years without really playing a whole lot. That's not a bad return. If I could spend 50-75% of my time at work getting paid while being in convalescence, I'd be a lucky lucky man (I have not worked out the percentages, I'm just jealous).

We have a place like that in the north...it's called the Civil Service ;-)

launish116

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We have a place like that in the north...it's called the Civil Service ;-)

Bravo!

launish116

In other news fair play to Bradley Roberts not even in academy or contracted and looking like he will have more caps than some of our academy backrow!

Jump_In_Jack

sydthebeat wrote: »

He's 29.

He'll have spent five years in a white shirt with no return.... While his youths team mates win a world Cup

Does anybody really blame him for getting out of dodge??

He almost certainly would have been part of that same World Cup squad no?
Just got injured before the World Cup playing for South Africa.
I’d expect he would have edged out Francois Louw if he hadn’t needed ankle surgery at the time.

He’s a great player, sorry to see him go, but if it were possible to convince Jack Conan to go to Ulster come next season, and sign for two seasons, I think he would be the perfect fit.
He is very mobile, and is actually the exact same height and weight as Coetzee, and a year younger, and has been extremely unlucky not to be capped more for Ireland.
He can carry, and can link up, and has a fair bit of pace and can be an option in the lineout.
It would be a chance for him to be a regular starting 8 and seriously have a chance at putting forward a case to be the starting 8 for Ireland.
Munster have Stander, Leinster have Doris, Connacht have Boyle, so a move for Conan to Ulster would be ideal, I think if Nucifora could swing that one it would be a great move for the player, the club, and for Ireland, win,win, win.
Much like what happened with Cooney, I think Conan is the man that will deliver for Ulster if it could be arranged.
And by the time he has spent two years with Ulster there should be a couple of young Ulster players able to compete for the number 8 jersey with Conan.

launish116

Didn’t Conan turn down Ulster advances previously?

Ulster Rugby Lad on Twitter made a good suggestion, we previously went after Jack Willis from Wasps. His younger brother Tom Willis is 21 a no8 and IQ. Kinda begrudge bringing in someone that young with out giving Allison a good run though!

Utah_Saint

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

He almost certainly would have been part of that same World Cup squad no?
Just got injured before the World Cup playing for South Africa.
I’d expect he would have edged out Francois Louw if he hadn’t needed ankle surgery at the time.

He’s a great player, sorry to see him go, but if it were possible to convince Jack Conan to go to Ulster come next season, and sign for two seasons, I think he would be the perfect fit.
He is very mobile, and is actually the exact same height and weight as Coetzee, and a year younger, and has been extremely unlucky not to be capped more for Ireland.
He can carry, and can link up, and has a fair bit of pace and can be an option in the lineout.
It would be a chance for him to be a regular starting 8 and seriously have a chance at putting forward a case to be the starting 8 for Ireland.
Munster have Stander, Leinster have Doris, Connacht have Boyle, so a move for Conan to Ulster would be ideal, I think if Nucifora could swing that one it would be a great move for the player, the club, and for Ireland, win,win, win.
Much like what happened with Cooney, I think Conan is the man that will deliver for Ulster if it could be arranged.
And by the time he has spent two years with Ulster there should be a couple of young Ulster players able to compete for the number 8 jersey with Conan.

Would love Conan. That's mad if both Coetzee and Conan are of similar size. Coetzee looks a lot thicker!
If Conan moved north would it be for same money or could he negotiate a raise? Or is the only benefit to moving is more game time to force his way into Ire squad?

Dog Botherer

launish116 wrote: »

Didn’t Conan turn down Ulster advances previously?

Ulster Rugby Lad on Twitter made a good suggestion, we previously went after Jack Willis from Wasps. His younger brother Tom Willis is 21 a no8 and IQ. Kinda begrudge bringing in someone that young with out giving Allison a good run though!

would Tom Willis really be much of a step up from the guys already in the system? first time i’ve heard of him so i doubt the hype is overwhelming.

Locke_Lamora

Dog Botherer wrote: »

would Tom Willis really be much of a step up from the guys already in the system? first time i’ve heard of him so i doubt the hype is overwhelming.

Not as good as his brother, but he's a very handy player. Would certainly have him above Allison, Jones, Timoney etc.

Jump_In_Jack

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Would love Conan. That's mad if both Coetzee and Conan are of similar size. Coetzee looks a lot thicker!
If Conan moved north would it be for same money or could he negotiate a raise? Or is the only benefit to moving is more game time to force his way into Ire squad?

I would expect him to want to move for the chance to get regular game time, similar to Jordi Murphy.
Ulster should be able to keep the money they’d save on Coetzee and look for another open side to replace Murphy, I’d actually say one of Van der Flier or Scott Penny could be a good move too, not sure if Murphy is contracted beyond this season?
Edit: he is signed til end of 2021/2022 season.

Richie_Rich89

It's mostly injury, and not being down the pecking order, that stops Conan getting first team action for Leinster. Last time he returned from an injury lay-off he was straight back in at 8 in the run up to the Saracens quarter-final, with Doris switching to blindside.

What about Ulster having a look at Izuchukwu at no. 8?

launish116

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Not as good as his brother, but he's a very handy player. Would certainly have him above Allison, Jones, Timoney etc.

Young talent, 21 and 117kg. Playing number 8. Would definitely be an addition though already in senior Wasps Squad. Brother has a few years on him. Does make you wonder Ulster did target jack, wonder has there been conversations with Matt also.

Realistically we need 2/3 backrowers. With 3 academy backrowers stepping up and overtaking Timoney/Jones (even phasing them out).

jacothelad

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We have a place like that in the north...it's called the Civil Service ;-)

In Stormont they do 100% of the square root of f8ck all and get paid and pay their illiterate mates and families £90,000 a year.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats just spite. Nothing more. And thats petty and small.

Professionals contracts are ended early all the time, all over the world, by employers and employees, for all sorts of reasons. No contract gives an employer ownership over an individual. If you cant accept a man doing right by himself and his family ahead of his employer then I can't help you there. Its unrealistic and unfair to expect anything else.

Theres a real level of entitlement to some of the comments here, demanding a guy put Ulster ahead of everything else. In no uncertain terms, f*** that. If any employer of mine had that attitude I'd be out of there like a shot.

As for Petrie, I never said he should accept this all smiles etc. I said he can be pissed off all he likes. But he needs to remain professional too. And that tweet isn't professional. If you're setting below par standards at the top then that filters through the organisation. No doubt Leinster were pissed off with how things went with guys like Roux and Douglas, but you just have to get on with it. If things aren't working for the player then there's nothing you can do other than let them go and wish them well. Unless they acting the dick in how they went about it. In which case you deal with that direct with the player. You don't do it in public.

A few months ago, when the IFRU had the begging bowls out, I suggested pay cuts for the big stars and was met with incredulous "you can't do that, sure they have contracts that must be honoured!".

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and all of a sudden contracts don't matter at all. They are of no consequence, players can decide to do whatever they want and we just have to accept it.

It is not spiteful, and it DEFINITELY is not unreasonable, to expect contracts to he honoured. That is the whole point of them. Ulster are being screwed here, Petrie is making sure everyone knows Ulster are being screwed, and he's doing the IRFU a favour by making it clear that it's not their fault either.

Don't remember Leo Cullen being called unprofessional or spiteful when was publicly whinging about that prop signing for Munster either.

irishbucsfan

Nothing Petrie said was unprofessional, at all. Complete overreaction to what he's actually said. Quite a measured response in fact given the farce of what the Bulls have done on Christmas day.

The only people who have acted unprofessionally here are the Bulls. Or at the very least, their PR team.

Zzippy

Awec's in-laws are currently having hushed conversations with their daughter about her cranky husband.

"Did we do something wrong? Is everything ok? Does he not like spending Christmas here?"

"No Dad, some fella left Ulster and he's taking it badly"

"Right so! Would a hot whiskey help?"

bilston

Coetzee's own comments back up what Petrie said...it was clearly player driven.

Petrie's responsibility is to Ulster, not Marcel Coetzee. He is just saying how it is.

That said I would hate for Coetzee to leave on bad terms. So, those on Twitter and Facebook saying Coetzee shouldn't be picked again are talking bullcrap. Equally we should flog the hell out of him between now and June.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

A few months ago, when the IFRU had the begging bowls out, I suggested pay cuts for the big stars and was met with incredulous "you can't do that, sure they have contracts that must be honoured!".

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and all of a sudden contracts don't matter at all. They are of no consequence, players can decide to do whatever they want and we just have to accept it.

I see you're back to arguing against things that were never said. In fact arguing against things I not only didn't say, but then subsequently clarified that I didn't say them. It makes me wonder why I bother replying at all tbh.

I never said contracts don't matter. I personally have never signed a contract that didn't have an early termination clause of some sort. That sort of stuff is there because circumstances can change and contracts may need to be reviewed, renegotiated or terminated early.

On the IRFU thing you said the IRFU should just cut pay. People rightly pointed out the legal issues with that approach. Any change in terms of contracts must involve renegotiation and agreement from both sides. This is just standard real life legalities. There is literally no contradiction here at all, no matter how much you try to claim that there is. Exactly the same thing will have happened in both the pay deferral and Coetzee cases. 1 party will have approached the other looking for fundamental changes to the contract. Only when the other party agreed would the changes be made.

awec wrote: »

It is not spiteful, and it DEFINITELY is not unreasonable, to expect contracts to he honoured. That is the whole point of them. Ulster are being screwed here, Petrie is making sure everyone knows Ulster are being screwed, and he's doing the IRFU a favour by making it clear that it's not their fault either.

Hoping Coetzee wins nothing with the Bulls is nothing but spiteful. You may have forgotten you said that, but you did. And it was petty and small.

As I've repeatedly said, contracts get ended early all the time. Have Ulster never once let a player go early because they werent happy with their performance? Ever? Or is that different?

awec wrote: »

Don't remember Leo Cullen being called unprofessional or spiteful when was publicly whinging about that prop signing for Munster either.

I have criticised Leo and Leinster for their handling of some of these situations over the last few years in very similar ways. But there is also a significant difference between interorganisational disputes and employer-employee ones. The whole "against our wishes" piece was incredibly poor form IMO. It was finger pointing at an employee because he was doing what was best for him and his. Thats pretty low.

Anyway, I dont particularly care and am not about to waste anymore time repeating myself on it. My position is clear. We can agree to disagree.

EDIT: Just to be clear on the Leinster Salanoa issue. I have no problem with Leo airing the issue with the IRFU in public. I very much do have an issue with how he brought Salanoa himself into it. Like Coetzee, Salanoa was doing what was best for him. Leo shouldn't have gone with the whole "Salanoa told us he was staying and then suddenly announced that he wasnt" as that is finger pointing at an employee in the same way as Petrie has done here. You don't air employer-employee dirty laundry in public.