Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

road_high

Anyone that travels to major cities in Europe or beyond will know the value of a metro and/or decent public transport. We need to ignore these whingers and develop the infrastructure of the country

AngryLips

Some of his criticisms are valid, specifically the bonkers location of Stephen's Green station. But the rest of it is just anti-metro nonsense. And in the article he parrots the lie that a station box was built under the Mater hospital.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077575#Comment_120077575

The SSG location argument is only valid based on his assumptions that 1) Dart Underground will be built and 2) DU will be built as designed over 20years ago.

Is there 'not' a station box under the Mater?

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077607#Comment_120077607

Pretty sure the station box was in fact just a retaining wall that would facilitate a station in the future.

CatInABox

It was indeed just a wall. An expensive, extremely well built underground wall, but just a wall at the end of the day.

hinfeyg2

He's discussing it here

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077325#Comment_120077325

Disable cookies or use incognito mode.

Frank McDonald is a moron, but it's OK for him, he lives in the city centre (or, at least used to - lived in Temple Bar and complained constantly it wasn't an oasis of peace and quiet)

Edit: Can't believe he's losing his rag over a derelict cinema which closed just under 30 years ago and which will never be used as a cinema again. The facade is to be retained. Or moving a statue. Or taking up some railings temporarily. Joke of an article.

It gets worse. In the article he says metro should be extended to Tallaght via Rathmines, on Twtter he's saying it shouldn't be built at all and more Luas lines would be better! you could not make this up.

Rulmeq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078095#Comment_120078095

>An extensive Luas network would be more economical & less damaging.

So he thinks a surface level light rail system won't destroy Dublin, but an underground one will. Also luas sharing road with everyone else doesn't solve any mass transit problems. I don't understand why the Irish Times insist on giving these people unquestioned access to their paper, they could at the very least provide a counter point to these opinion pieces from people with a track record of opposing everything.

Hotblack Desiato

Luas is much too slow and has nowhere near enough capacity.

It only seems like a good thing in Dublin because almost everything else about public transport is far worse.

prunudo

I mentioned the piece to my parents earlier, they buy the times, 'oh the metro to the airport' was the reply. Away from this thread I wonder how much damage these opinion pieces cause to public opinion on the prospect of large infrastructure projects. They set a bad narrative from the offset which then gets refreshed every few months.

Really need someone from NTA proactively pushing these projects.

On a side note, I've no idea how this project will be on target, a company I do work for are waiting on planning which is in aBp and heard during week that they are only processing Q1 2021 appeals at present, if true the country is f@#ked.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120077411#Comment_120077411

Also him spouting on about it not being integrated....

Connection with Green Luas at charlemont, short walk to red line from O'Connell street station.

Connection with DART/train at Tara Street and Glasnevin.

Runs past multiple bus CBCS (i.e. ballymun, phibsboro) and countless bus routes.

Provides a station at the Airport only a 25 minute journey from the city.

Can't see how that's in any way "not integrated".

LXFlyer

It’s utterly woeful stuff.

Podge_irl

Was he not also strongly against the LUAS in the first place?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078336#Comment_120078336

And the DART. The man and his campaigns have been a disaster for Dublin and Ireland, and we should all be thankful that he hasn't been more successful.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078211#Comment_120078211

Would metro link not be getting special treatment in ABP as a major piece of infrastructure so the whole process would be quicker compared to say a block of flats etc?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078383#Comment_120078383

I don't know, possibly, but equally its more complex so will take up huge amount of resources, if they don't have the staff there's only so much they can get through. You could also argue that housing is equally important.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120078145#Comment_120078145

And no sooner would more surface Luas lines be proposed then Frank and his ilk would be mobilising over historic cobbles being removed, bollards being manhandled or the sight lines/architectural ensemble of some nondescript corner being offended by the presence of overhead cables. There's simply no winning with these guys, who view the city as their own personal fiefdom and something to be held as a perpetual living museum that is slowly crumbling to dust.

Unfortunely every time they write a polemic it generates heat and fury which is purely what the Times is interested in.

p_haugh

One of his replies on twitter, he didn't even bother to do any proper research before writing his puff piece!

https://twitter.com/frankmcdonald60/status/1611727590624043009?t=7eAZVjI5jgkOMkJ3QYm_wg&s=19

plodder

What does it even mean to say

"The costly diversion of Metrolink's alignment to link up with Tara Street station when such an interchange would ultimately be provided by Dart underground is also questionable" ?

Is he saying an interchange should only link two lines but no more?

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080411#Comment_120080411

He's referring to the original route which had SSG West, OCS, Mater, Drumcondra...

Metro would have connected with Dart at SSG West, but this assumes the Dart Underground project went ahead and was completed at the same time. In 2010, the 8.6km DU route was estimated to cost €4.0B.

The costly "diversion" he refers to, meaning an additional stop at Tara Street is most certainly cheaper than building DU.

Sam Russell

Wasn't there a guy called What-do-you Colm - McCarthy who said Dublin Airport could be served adequately by the existing buses and coaches?

Now a bit of arithmetic on the back of an envelope shows that is nonsense with a projected 4 million passengers per year using the airport. Of course, if you are wedded to the motor car, this is possible because you would make the assumption the 80% or 90% of passengers would travel by car or taxi, if only there was adequate roads to allow them in, and plenty of taxis to take them away. Unfortunately that aspect of Dublin Airport is not discussed.

Of course, readers of the thread are aware that the Metrolink is not just for the airport, but serves Swords, DCU, Mater, OCS, Tara ST, SSG, and will eventually serve Sandyford - if only the dreadful conundrum of the unexpected surprise of the unknown main sewer and Charlemont, and the impasse of Dunville Ave can be sorted.

We all know that the Luas Green Line is over subscribed from Dundrum into town in the morning, but it is shiny and has the longest trams in the world, so that is grand.

Dublin public transport is blocked by congestion. Underground is the only solution.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081214#Comment_120081214

Just to correct you Sam. The Green Line is nowhere near oversubscribed inbound from Dundrum in the mornings.

It is perfectly possible to board at Dundrum or other stops and still get a seat during the morning peak.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081232#Comment_120081232

Well, I do not travel on the Luas with any regularity so I would not be aware of the current situation.

However, since Covid, the commuting pattern has changed and I know from the Dart that inbound trains in the morning are much less crammed than previously (pre-Covid). In fact between 8 and 9 they are hardly full, so I assume that might be true for the Luas. However, any time I have seen trams north of Charlemont at any time there are no vacant seats and many standing passengers.

It used to be the case that anyone city bound hoping to alight at Windy Arbour would do better to travel out first in order to travel in, but that was pre-Covid.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081256#Comment_120081256

The trams were all lengthened during Covid and that has made a massive difference in its own right.

Trams start emptying out from Charlemont northbound and I certainly would dispute the lack of seats.

Using common sense, aim for the trams starting at Sandyford, usually identifiable as going to Broombridge, rather than those starting at Brides Glen which would have higher loads. The Sandyford starters always have plenty of room.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080937#Comment_120080937

Right, but he's saying that Metrolink and DART underground (or DART+ tunnel as it seems to be now) are being designed completely independently of each other, which is ridiculous. If (or when) DART underground goes ahead it will adapt to the reality of Metrolink. The last Jacobs report about DART Underground from 2021 envisaged three lines interchanging at Tara Street. That's a better network, with more connectivity than an interchange of two lines surely?

He seems to care a lot about the city centre where he lives, and is sceptical of anything that benefits those who live out in the sticks - a bit like Michael McDowell in that regard. I remember when the M50 was being designed, he used to preface his scepticism in every article with "M50 (where are the other 49?)"

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081381#Comment_120081381

Yeah it's nonsense. A DU tunnel through the city would absolutely reflect the current / proposed network.

DU is separate to this thread but I don't see it ever happening. That 2010 cost of 4B is probably double that, easily, which would make it twice as expensive as Metro per km. It'll never happen.

Also, I believe there's an issue with an East-West line through Tara Street due to sewerage pipes but could be wrong.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081232#Comment_120081232

Indeed, the Green Line Capacity Upgrade project has solved the congestion crisis on the Green Line..... for now. With the level of development that has been happening along the line, even their own projections has capacity being a problem in the next ten years again. I happen to think that their projections are incredibly optimistic, as they currently think that the vast majority of the people who will move into the massive Cherrywood development will only travel as far as Sandyford before hopping off.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081430#Comment_120081430

Yes, as far as I can recall, a Tara St DU station has been ruled out, but I can't remember if it was ruled out by the sewer (which does exist, it's already ruled out moving the MetroLink station) or if it was ruled out by the fact that it'd leaver the DU line with too sharp of a turn northwards

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081430#Comment_120081430

The price for DART Underground included a lot of other works which are to happen this decade independently under DART+. When we get back to the tunnel, there will be a lot less to do than DU envisaged, although there may also be additional complications.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081875#Comment_120081875

Which works specifically? Neither Metro or Dart+ plans include any enabling works for DU, as far as I'm aware.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081905#Comment_120081905

The Dart Underground project, as it was back when it was put forward around the time of Metro North, included much of what we now know as the Dart+ projects. When they realised that getting two tunnels through planning and the political approval was extremely unlikely, they shelved DU and split out all the non tunnel parts.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082124#Comment_120082124

Ah okay, interesting. Like basically upgrading the signalling etc., electrifying the lines to Maynooth / Hazelhatch?

In any case, I'd guess we're at least a decade away from seriously re-considering the DU project.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082169#Comment_120082169

It was going to be a kitchen sink project, everything done at once. Electrification, quad tracking, signalling, level crossing closures, everything. In hindsight, a crazy way of doing a project in Ireland.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120081771#Comment_120081771

Absolutely - but I just wanted to correct a factual error in Sam’s post.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082480#Comment_120082480

Yeah, I got that, just wanted to provide some context for yours. I think that there's a few new posters around these parts (kinda shocking with boards new set up), so just just wanted to give them the full backstory and future guesses, rather than leave people thinking that it's been solved long term.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082274#Comment_120082274

Plus new fleet of EMUs for the greatly expanded electrified network.

dublinman1990

Sadly I still not have had the opportunity to read Frank McDonald's article on Metrolink yesterday. But what the hell actually possessed him to write that nonsense for the IT.

I cannot believe, while looking at his twittter feed yesterday, that he would be that daft to say the complete opposite of what Metrolink was trying to offer to the people of Dublin compared to what was laid out within the official plans itself from the NTA.

Does this man have no shame at all in what he has to done to himself and to his career as a journalist/columnist on matters to relating to the environment or on matters relating to public transport. He has shown to have a complete lack of self awareness within himself when he wrote that drivel.

The direct repsonses from the people on his twitter feed from yesterday are really showing him how his parroted nonsense has not made any sense to members of the public who have read or heard about it; some of which who are actual subscribers to the IT.

The responses on his Twitter feed are clearly showing how the karma can be thrown right back in his own face when it is necessary.

If people had taken the effort to research the plans on the Metrolink and Dart plus offiicial websites which mentions how the integration will actually work between the two services at Glasnevin & Tara St; the readers would know that Frank McDonald would have no clue in what is he talking about at all when they look at these plans themselves in their own time.

And I will say it again; if people on social media are pointing out to him that Metrolink is going to provide the complete opposite to what he actually wrote in that article on Saturday. Would he have actually seen the light and have an actual chance to believe them?

I would say no because he doesn't want to give himself any sort of intended belief to say that he was complelty wrong about the whole debacle.

It seems that he justs want to continue on writing to the masses who will read his rubbish whenever he sees fit.

cgcsb

He doesn't have to be articulate on the topic he only needs to rabble. That's what the IT is, a red top with delusions of grandeur

prunudo

The big fear, as always, is that many of the IT readers will believe everything that is printed. Thankfully he was pulled to task on twitter. At least I know the background to what Metrolink will be, but makes you wonder what other rubbish is printed that I wouldn't be up to speed on.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120083495#Comment_120083495

I think the IT readers are perfectly capable of making their own opinion, of an opinion piece.

MICKEYG

Our friend was on Newstak this morning spouting his nonsense. So frustrating he gets this much air time. I was hoping Newstak would get a challenger, such as the Dublin Commuter Coalition, but unfortunately not.

yer man!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084529#Comment_120084529

Yup, heard him there this morning. Irresponsible of the interviewer's to not challenge him. He's all for DART underground despite that have arguably more impact on the city especially st Stephens green which he is saying shouldn't be touched at all.

Murph85

The cost for this could be fifteen times what those idiots could have built metro North for in 2012! Two billion back then, would run the country for a few days now... absolute morons...

The figures are too insane in my opinion, for them to let the project go ahead. How much are other European cities building similar schemes for ?

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084823#Comment_120084823

He probably knows DU would take another 2decades to plan and get approval for. He's probably just trying to delay any impact to his life until he clocks out.

Was it clear that he was rambling nonsense on Newstalk, despite not being challenged. Maybe the presenter felt it wasn't necessary to challenge 😂

LXFlyer

Judge for yourself:

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/are-the-metrolink-plans-being-made-up-as-they-go-along

yer man!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084858#Comment_120084858

It's was a bit yeah, just kept banging on about how we could have 30 luas lines for the cost of Metrolink. He clearly is just ranting for the sake of it. He seems like the type of person that shakes his fist at the sky.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084842#Comment_120084842

The 2 Billion figure for Mero North was ridiculously vague, and honestly would have made the National Children's Hospital project look like a beacon of good governance. It would have gone over budget by several billion, and would have stopped the construction of any further rail projects in Ireland for decades. The O'Connell Bridge station was a nightmare for constructability, with the station being mined out, underneath a river, with multiple, separate concourses. To put it in perspective, with Metrolink, they'd rather CPO and knock an apartment block with around a hundred apartments, in the middle of the worst housing crisis ever, than mine out a much smaller, simpler station at Tara Street.

There is zero chance that MetroNorth could have been built anywhere near that price. Zero.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085029#Comment_120085029

He goes on about the impact of Metro on SSG and yet pushes for DU which would have a much larger impact on the park. If I remember correctly, they planned to close the park entirely and drain the lake. Seriously Frank?...

The only valid point he makes is continuing onto Cathal Da Brugha barracks but the plans to redevelop that only happened after plans were made for Metrolink. As for the Carlton, it's been closed for 30years, get a grip.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120084842#Comment_120084842

You don't see the irony here? You'll be posting in 10 years time about how much cheaper we could have done it for in 2023!

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085453#Comment_120085453

Considering that that redevelopment is a government run project, I wouldn't be holding my breath about it getting going in the next decade or so. It could join the long list of government or local council projects that should have got going, but didn't, like the glass bottle site, etc.

And if 1000 homes potentially going into an area is a reason for an upgraded transport link, the 10000 homes going into Cherrywood must also require comment, right Frank? A project that only got approval because of the planned Metro upgrade? Jesus wept. That's not the only major project along the Luas line either.