Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell

In a way stopping at Charlemont does a bit of resisting mission creep. It will be relatively easy, once it opens to get the line out to Sandyford.

Whether it is by joining north of Charlemont and onto the existing bridge or by tunnelling further south and avoiding Dunville Ave, it is easy to sort out once the obvious benefit of the metro over Luas becomes clear to all.

p_haugh

And it gives them the option to alter the route further south (*IF* it comes to that). Ideally, however, they'll continue with the planned upgrade of the green line to metro standard

AngryLips

The south section of Metrolink (the bit involving the green line upgrade), while it is low hanging fruit and would be a nice to have, is not essential in my opinion. The route is already very well served by public transport given that it was the first part of Dublin to get a functioning (and still very efficient) light rail connection. Prioritising parts of the city not already served by light rail should be the main goal of future transport planning, especially when local residents are opposed to it. There's far worse fates than having to suffer with existing excellent green line services.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340644#Comment_119340644

Fair enough, but we have also taken very short-sighted approaches to infrastructure (M50 for one) which went on to cost us dearly later and forever detract from how that infrastructure can operate even after it is upgraded to what it should have been.

On the red line they built platforms which were longer than the tiny little first batch of trams ordered, which was just as well as they had no idea how big the passenger demand would be. (How could their forecasts have been so far out?)

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339348#Comment_119339348

Who told you O'Connell Street was the widest in Europe? This seems wildly untrue and shouldn't be used as a basis for anything.

I think O'Connell Bridge might have some record for 'width divided by length' but that's a different thing.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342689#Comment_119342689

I thought it was Strokestown.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342689#Comment_119342689

O'Connell Bridge is wider than it is long which is unusual. O'Connell is certainly quite wide, though it doesn't hold any records.

None of this has much relevance to the problems of digging up one half of the street for years. Nor that it is apparently impossible to get from there to Tara Street.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we get back on topic please.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119341273#Comment_119341273

The thing is we need to get out of the mentality that high capacity rail only has a catchment area 1km either side of it. If the Green line was upgraded to flow seamlessly into Metrolink, we would see a complete reorientation of most bus routes in south and south east Dublin to bring people as quickly as possible to a Metrolink station rather than into and out of the city. It would be the quickest way to improve public transport in a large swathe of the county. Notwithstanding the fact I believe Green line conversion to Metrolink should be prioritised, a completely new tunnelled branch to Tallaght through areas completely unserved by rail should definitely be a high priority. Personally I think the Red Line could and should be upgraded to metro standard over time. A surprising amount of it is already off street.

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342689#Comment_119342689

My childhood was a long time ago, but I think it was very possibly Mr John Hinde, of the postcards.

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342941#Comment_119342941

Just because a poster says that it would thus 'not be possible to get to Tara Street', in the posts above, does not make it impossible. Or anywhere near so.

Do we, for example, have any word in the metrolink.ie documentation on this? It is very unclear where in the metrolink documentation one might find some information about their choice of a location which is quite remote from the Red Line.

It seems at the moment, to the naked eye, that the location was chosen because the developer was making it available.

These vehicles - if they are going to be like the current trams - can probably do quite sharp turns, like the trams do at, say, the top and bottom of Dawson Street. So, the main question is, can the tunnelling machines do so too? Any metrolink documentation I've seen is silent on this.

As I said above, the disruption will pass, but poor connections will remain for the lifetime of the metro.

Sam Russell

@strassenwo!f The design is fixed at this point and is about to go to ABP. It will not be changed at this point.

The best thing that could happen is the TBM to get to work.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343142#Comment_119343142

It didn't happen with Green line, I don't really see why it would happen for an upgraded green line.

cgcsb

Would love to see a second metro line running from Tallaght to Beaumont, the green line luas extended from Harcourt to UCD and the green line from Sandyford to Charlemont upgraded and integrated with the planned metrolink. Then a radical expansion of the luas in Central Dublin before any further suburban branches are added, certainly a second east-west line on the south side is needed, the red line is now completely full for the entire day between James's and Connolly

That being said, just build metrolink now and pursue other projects in parallel. Too much time wasted already.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344537#Comment_119344537

BusConnects didn't exist when the green line was built and to be honest even if it had it probably wouldn't have been wise to do it as the green line was already pretty much at capacity (hence the lengthening of trams) as it's a line if sight system with at grade sections limiting the throughput along the whole route. In short, the green line is perfectly adequate for the existing catchment area but if upgraded that catchment area could be widened significantly through BusConnects. If metrolink is actually built we will see that happening on the Northside probably from day one and it will seem a no brainer to upgrade the green line to implement the same on the southside and bring tens of thousands into a one change to the city centre or airport system. Don't even need to upgrade the tricky stuff south of Sandyford initially (or at all really). Just treat the Luas south of Sandyford as another feeder to metrolink like the buses.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is for the existing plan that has got Gov approval for the business case and is due to go to ABP for a railway order in Sept 2022.

Please post crayon diagrams, route suggestions, change plans etc. in the appropriate threads - there are a few to choose from.

Further off topic posts will be deleted, and sanctions could follow.

Thank you.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344702#Comment_119344702

Deleted

Sam Russell

@murphaph Mod: Post deleted. Did you not read the mod post directly before your post?

murphaph

No, I started typing my response before you posted it.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299978#Comment_119299978

I believe you live in Germany. The last few posts here have pointed out the ignorance and idiocy of the public at large. I assume this idiocy is not facilitated in germany?

I am in a second world country at the moment, they have a rail link to an airport that serves 4 million people a year. Its 40km from the nearest city. That kip Dublin? I have to get a taxi from dundrum, because any other option is a farce! Unless you are staying very short term, parking at airport is out...

Murph85

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/09/fintan-otoole-ireland-has-managed-to-become-both-overdeveloped-and-undeveloped-without-ever-being-quite-developed/

Peregrine

Ew, Conor Skehan.. 🤢

The Sindo firmly establishing itself as against MetroLink.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348414#Comment_119348414

Perhaps they're just judging from the lessons of history 🤔

Hotblack Desiato

Can't read the article but I reckon I'm not missing much!

Never heard of Conor Skehan but a quick search paints him as a bit of an eejit to say the least

Zebra3

At least they had the decency to put it behind a paywall.

strassenwo!f

un

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347822#Comment_119347822

Have you tried taking the LUAS from Dundrum to, say, Dawson Street (22 minutes), then getting the Aircoach? Probably around an hour, for less than 20 quid.

In your ideal scenario, under the current plan, if built, you'd be getting on in Dundrum, changing to the metro at Charlemont, and getting to the Airport in around 50 minutes, for perhaps around a fiver. Not a huge difference, compared to the journeys faced by people in many other parts of the city

Dublin is certainly way behind in many aspects of public transport, but great efforts are being made. The city must work hard to catch up, but it is not a kip.

strassenwo!f

One further thing I would add about the articles mentioned recently above: both Colm McCarthy, last week, and Conor Skehan, this, talk about Dublin being a low-density city.

This is a myth, and it is clear that the Dublin City Council area is absolutely on a par - density-wise - with Munich, which has a very fine transport system, and ahead of, e.g., Frankfurt and Copenhagen, both of which have well-developed rail transport systems, or, say, Helsinki, which also has decent rail transport, but is frankly a density-minnow compared to Dublin.

These writers may possibly be right in some areas, but on the issue of density we need to hear more, I feel.

prunudo

Both McCarthy and Skehan will be retired by the time Metrolink opens, happily enjoying their pensions and free tansport. Meanwhile the younger generations that follow will be suffering due to these 'experts' muddying the water the their opinion pieces.

Sindo and Times readers don't care about metros or public transport, won't even be the their target customers yet they seem to have too much sway on public policy and where we go as a country.

JohnnyChimpo

wouldnt bother hate-reading Skehan even if it wasnt paywalled, just wanted to point and laugh at the use of "shiny" as a pejorative here. Like... "maybe we should build new infrastructure sometimes, but we can't be wasting any money making it all shiny" , The cost of Brasso alone must be adding a couple billion to the projections.

Real internalised serf mentality, everything is sh1t, we like it being sh1t, and if you expect nice things you should emigrate to a country with notions

Sam Russell

McCarthy is on record saying that buses alone will solve the need for public transport (from the Airport to city centre).

Now buses alone could not even cope with the employees, let alone the passengers. Taxi availability is governed by a 30 min queue. Car parking is already maxed out, despite the exorbitant cost of it.

So how do passengers get to the airport? They fly in from Kerry or Knock, as some have done in an attempt to locate their lost baggage.

The Metrolink is only one bit of many improvements the airport needs. A bit of good management and a few more trained personnel is also essential. I wonder could they build the Metrolink Swords to the M50 bit first?

dublinman1990

There is something amazing to note here when we talk about both the contributors and readers of The Sindo & IT when talking about Metrolink. They could be the very 1st group to have the belief on social media in this country that climate change is real and a very real threat to our own humanity.

They could be the 1st group of people in this country to buy an electric car, if they have the financial resources to buy one, if they are to close to electric charging points that would be located near their own house.

But they would dismiss the likelihood that a project like Metrolink should not be built in Dublin because it is somewhat known by the media to be a project that is filled with a lot of notions?

They could be the very 1st group of people to say that using PT is a great boon among the peasant class; you know the great unwashed. But they don't want them to have nice things like Metrolink that will offer even better improvements to people who use PT in Dublin. That is something that I don't get to fully understand when I talk about this topic.

If they are banking on the idea that ABP will appease to their own whims that the project will be rejected yet again in future. Dealing with our own climate may give them an ultimatum that may put them in their place as it were.

spacetweek

If the main reason this eventually gets built is just because it is seen as contributing towards our carbon reductions (and not, like, because a major capital city of a booming economy probably could do with some decent public transport) it will not bode well for the future. Because we can't keep forcing through essential infrastructure & services improvements due to external legislation.

We should be doing it because we deserve it.

Podge_irl

It is not the main reason, but it doesn't exactly hurt.

murphaph

The "it's too good for us" mentality truly is sickening. Decent roads infrastructure is seen as a right while decent rail infrastructure is seen as a luxury.

MyLove4Satan

Invoking Climate Change and Carbon is actually - and always will be - detrimental upon the ears of the general public when it comes to promoting investment in things like a metro. The focus should be entirely upon how everyone's commute and lifestyle will be greatly improved by it and the knock on effects will transform their well being of their work-life balance as well as that of the city as a whole.

<snip>

Sell it as a practical improvement to their lives and they'll want it.

Sam Russell

The Luas was a white elephant according to the Doheny & Nesbitt School of Economics named after the pub where they espoused their economic theories from a bar stool.

Of course, once it started taking passengers, it was the best thing since the sliced white pan.

Now the same economists say that a metro is a waste and buses will suffice. This is nonsense as the metro service will move more passengers per hour than buses could per day. It could move passengers whatever was happening to traffic congestion on the city streets. It will connect with most other rail and bus based public transport. With appropriate P&R facilities, it will assist most drivers to move from city centre driving to P&R and make life so much easier.

What is not to like about metro living, and why are these dismal economists allowed to diss it so readily with no pushback from the media?

Zebra3

As a curious cat, what cities have built metros and regretted it?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359136#Comment_119359136

Yerevan, Armenia. But it was built on the cheap in late Soviet times and was allowed to deteriorate to the point of being unusable but I think they've actually renovated it recently and enjoy a delightful metro service. Also worth noting that comparing it to Ireland, Armenia is very poor indeed and the capital is much smaller and much less visited than Dublin.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358830#Comment_119358830

News paper economists are like meteorologists that can only tell if it's already raining. A useless bunch by all accounts, no forethought, only basic current accounting

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359610#Comment_119359610

If they were any good at predicting they wouldnt be writing for a lowly newspaper!

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359136#Comment_119359136

and there is the best comment on this massive threads. Well said.

xper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359136#Comment_119359136

Doubt they regret building what's in use now but the Charleroi metro (really trams with tunnels) is a salutary lesson in politics screwing up a public transport plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeMJBqU_eYc

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359136#Comment_119359136

Campinas, Brazil

https://twitter.com/threestationsq/status/1253873031086292993

Sam Russell

Mod: I am not too sure, but last time I looked Brazil was not between Swords and Charlemont.

dublinman1990

What sort of country today would abandon an active metropolitan underground rail link within the era of climate change? You would probably look like a complete fool from the likes of climate experts if you think you could get away from contemplating such an activity for no suitable reason whatsoever.

PopePalpatine

Pretty much the only one I could think of would be the USA, but that'd require one of their cities to actually propose a new metro to begin with.

spacetweek

We've received a write-up in the prestigious RailJournal.com.

Reproduced in full as they only let you read one or two articles before making you sign up.

"THE Irish cabinet has approved the preliminary business case for Dublin’s MetroLink project, a planned 19.4km automated metro that will run mostly underground from north of Swords in the north of the city via Dublin Airport to Charlemont, south of the city centre.

The line will have 16 stations and is expected to offer three-minute headways at peak times and will carry up to 20,000 passenger per hour, with the possibility of reducing headways to 90 seconds by 2060. The line is expected to open in the early 2030s and is projected to cost €9.5bn, the midpoint of a €7.16-12.25bn capital delivery cost range for the project.

Following cabinet approval, Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), which is responsible for project delivery, will submit a planning application for the MetroLink route to the An Bord Pleanála, Ireland’s national independent planning body, in September ahead of the procurement process commencing next year. Construction is expected to commence in 2025, depending on the outcome of the planning and procurement processes.

The Irish government will cover three-quarters of the cost of the project with a quarter financed through a public-private partnership. The government says a more precise cost will be known following the completion of planning and procurement.

A metro for Dublin has been in the works for more than two decades and Ireland’s transport minister, Mr Eamon Ryan, describes MetroLink as a transformative piece of public transport infrastructure with the government’s decision a significant milestone for the project. “Now this exciting transport megaproject starts to become a reality,” he says. “We are giving the green light to a transport system that will be integral to the city and the country’s sustainable development in this century, and into the next.”

The project is expected to deliver €13.7bn of benefits to the Irish economy over the next 60 years. And with more than 175,000 people and 250,000 jobs able to access the stations on foot, the line is anticipated to provide more than 1 billion carbon-neutral, fully electrified passenger journeys by 2050. It will also offer a direct rail connection to the airport for the first time and interchange with Dublin’s existing Dublin Area Rapid Transit (Dart) and Luas light rail networks, connecting more than 1 million people in the Dublin area and across Ireland.

“The project will improve the quality of the urban environment and people’s lives, as well as enable the development of more well-connected homes in and around our capital city,” Ryan says. “It will contribute to a shift from the private car to more sustainable travel, helping to decarbonise the transport sector in line with government policy.”

prunudo

The man is obsessed with carbon. The construction phase of metro will use colossal amounts. If he really wanted to reduce carbon in transport we'd stick to electric buses. This Metrolink and other lines need to be built asap, but their benefits will be far more than just decarbonising transport.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407127#Comment_119407127

False. The main construction element of metrolink is a deep bore tunnel, built by an electrically powered TBM. Battery technology is revolutionising the construction industry with hybrid and electric powered machines becoming far more common. Construction sites in urban areas now get temporary esb connections instead of depending on deisel generators. There's also a whole life embodied carbon study included in the EIS.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407157#Comment_119407157

The tbm may be electric but what about the amount of concrete and steel that is required. The transportation of spoil away from dig site.

I'm all for building this thing and the end result will be reduced carbon transportation but to get there will use huge amounts of fossil fuels and carbon.