Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If they allow No Deal, the government will be immediately brought down by a No Confidence vote.

That won't stop no deal on Friday.


But, thinking about it, May has already requested an extension. The EU could do what it did last time, which is simply grant a different extension, which would mean that in EU law, the extension happens. The fact that the UK government collapses without accepting it and the UKs laws are in a mess until they have an election and a new Government to sort them out is not the EUs problem.

Zubeneschamali

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Guardian suggesting that the final extension would be until the end of the year:

"final" extension! Ha ha!

Varta

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, I've seen the likes of Soubry, Starmer and Boles get a hard time. I saw Andrew Neil conduct a very nasty interview with Boles a couple of months ago. It is indeed unacceptable. But when it comes to a dangerous, lying hypocrite like Jacob, I'm inclined to give her a free pass.

I'm all for robust questioning and giving interviewees a hard time when necessary, that's good journalism and too often lacking. In her case though I think it amounted to a sackable offence. She really does have difficulty containing her bias. Plus, I don't think her methods work, she rarely draws people out. A bit of a sledgehammer. But it was nice to see Mogg squirm ;-)

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

TBF, Emily Maitlis ripped into Jacob last week. It's here 4.50-10.30 if anyone would like to see Jacob squirm. She literally sneered at him at one stage.

Meh. She had one string to her bow and couldn't demonstrate the required mental agility to pin him when he responded with his "this deal is better than no brexit" schtick. The obvious retort was that he had taken so long to come to that conclusion, that he'd basically made the likelihood of her deal getting through much harder and no brexit much more likely. She just kept hanging her hat on his "slave state" remark. He was there for the taking and she fluffed it.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That won't stop no deal on Friday.


But, thinking about it, May has already requested an extension. The EU could do what it did last time, which is simply grant a different extension, which would mean that in EU law, the extension happens. The fact that the UK government collapses without accepting it and the UKs laws are in a mess until they have an election and a new Government to sort them out is not the EUs problem.

Yeah, the EU could unilaterally say that business carries on as usual as long as we think fit. And let the UK sort itself out. Which is basically what is happening anyway.

10000maniacs

prawnsambo wrote: »

The BBC used not be like that though. Programmes like Newsnight and QT were a lot more hard-hitting and in-depth than they are now. Politicians would not have been allowed spout slogans unchallenged or enabled by soft questions. Stacking the audience with particular viewpoints would not have been tolerated either.

It all changed when the Tories threatened a top to bottom restructure of the organisation including proposals for license fee reduction and advertisements.

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Meh. She had one string to her bow and couldn't demonstrate the required mental agility to pin him when he responded with his "this deal is better than no brexit" schtick. The obvious retort was that he had taken so long to come to that conclusion, that he'd basically made the likelihood of her deal getting through much harder and no brexit much more likely. She just kept hanging her hat on his "slave state" remark. He was there for the taking and she fluffed it.

I don't agree. She got under his skin by ignoring his mantras and directly challenging his integrity. Which is exactly what you should do when you are getting patronising and meaningless soundbites as answers. Also, she did challenge him on political positions such as being a "useful idiot" for Remain due to his intransigence on the WA and taking his orders as an English MP from the DUP. Look at it this way. If Boris and Farage had been challenged in a similar vein prior to the referendum, we mightn't be in this mess.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't agree. She got under his skin by ignoring his mantras and directly challenging his integrity. Which is exactly what you should do when you are getting patronising and meaningless soundbites as answers. Also, she did challenge him on political positions such as being a "useful idiot" for Remain due to his intransigence on the WA and taking his orders as an English MP from the DUP. Look at it this way. If Boris and Farage had been challenged in a similar vein prior to the referendum, we mightn't be in this mess.

Yeah, but she quoted that remark about the useful idiot, but didn't drill down and walk him through what made him so. So it was soundbite versus soundbite. The way to deal with liars llike JRM and BJ is to confront them with facts and more facts and walk them through their statements and stances and show them up that way. I agree that it's better than it was, but there is so much material on these charlatans that it should be child's play to drown them in it. Without sneering and quoting insults.

MrMusician18

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Nonsense. When the blatant lies were flying about from Brexiteers in 2016, they weren't held to account by anyone across the main UK media. Only now are some waking up to the conveyor belt of subterfuge, side-stepping and deceit re: the EU. We could see the likes of Johnson as the new PM and yet he is neck high in lies since this debacle began. And the main reason he's silent now, to distance himself from all the crap he said in the past.

To say that RTE/Ireland has no skin in the game when the fall out is detrimental to the Irish economy and the border/ GFA, is complete nonsense. Even back in 2016 you could read a more analytical critique of the referendum process and fallout in the Irish times than you could've read in the british press. And don't even get me started how the Irish handle referendums compared to the UK.. ignorance is endemic when it is useful to the establishment, and in the UK that ignorance is a politician's bread and butter. Clarity & accountability is something the UK doesn't do very well, but Ireland, without question, has a better handle on being upfront.

You missed my point spectacularly. It isn't the culture of Irish or French discourse that has meant we have had greater clarity in our discussions on Brexit, but distance. The idea that Irish or French media is innately better due to culture is simply wrong, and a constitutional crisis like this in either country would produce similar quality discourse.

From afar we can see that Brexit is destructive, but the British media is within the melee and as the factions fight it out, the bigger picture isn't visible. I'm not trying to excuse the Beeb, but merely stating the position from which they look at the debate. That said, British media has completely failed the population by getting into the debate instead of observing and questioning everything diligently.

And RTE has no skin in the game. RTE is an observer, while the BBC is a participant in the debate. When the Chilcott style enquiry happens, it will be the BBC and British media organisations that will have to explain their editorial decisions, not RTE - that's what I mean by "skin in the game".

prawnsambo

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You missed my point spectacularly. It isn't the culture of Irish or French discourse that has meant we have had greater clarity in our discussions on Brexit, but distance. The idea that Irish or French media is innately better due to culture is simply wrong, and a constitutional crisis like this in either country would produce similar quality discourse.

From afar we can see that Brexit is destructive, but the British media is within the melee and as the factions fight it out, the bigger picture isn't visible. I'm not trying to excuse the Beeb, but merely stating the position from which they look at the debate. That said, British media has completely failed the population by getting into the debate instead of observing and questioning everything diligently.

The British media has lied consistently about the EU for decades. So much so that there's a blog post on the EU website detailing all the lies thaat have been told to date. There has been no balance to the debate for ever. That's the starting point. So when you say it would be the same in any other European country, I would disagree. I don't think I've ever seen a national press in its entirety, anywhere in Europe, so objectively biased on a subject over such a long period of time.

Mr.Wemmick

10000maniacs wrote: »

It all changed when the Tories threatened a top to bottom restructure of the organisation including proposals for license fee reduction and advertisements.

Indeed. And you would wonder if the weakening and disintegration of the Tory party has anything at all to do with BBC sitting up and taking a breath.

MrMusician18

prawnsambo wrote: »

The BBC used not be like that though. Programmes like Newsnight and QT were a lot more hard-hitting and in-depth than they are now. Politicians would not have been allowed spout slogans unchallenged or enabled by soft questions. Stacking the audience with particular viewpoints would not have been tolerated either.

I think this is a bit of a myth. The BBC has long been weak on insightful critique of domestic affairs but it's output on say wars in Africa had been very good. It wasn't particular strong on the injustices in NI or the Iraq war if I remember correctly.

It's all about distance. When it has it, it is very clear headed.

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, but she quoted that remark about the useful idiot, but didn't drill down and walk him through what made him so. So it was soundbite versus soundbite. The way to deal with liars llike JRM and BJ is to confront them with facts and more facts and walk them through their statements and stances and show them up that way. I agree that it's better than it was, but there is so much material on these charlatans that it should be child's play to drown them in it. Without sneering and quoting insults.

Maybe. I thought it was a mixture of exposing his lack of principle and challenging him with political facts. Would be very happy to see her do something similar to Farage and Johnson. Obviously we see it differently.

MrMusician18

prawnsambo wrote: »

The British media has lied consistently about the EU for decades. So much so that there's a blog post on the EU website detailing all the lies thaat have been told to date. There has been no balance to the debate for ever. That's the starting point. So when you say it would be the same in any other European country, I would disagree. I don't think I've ever seen a national press in its entirety, anywhere in Europe, so objectively biased on a subject over such a long period of time.

I'd actually agree and point you to the Irish media as a case-in-point, albeit on the other side.
There is rarely criticism of the EU in the Irish media, even when it's richly deserved such as the handling of the migration crisis.

prawnsambo

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I'd actually disagree and point you to the Irish media as a case-in-point, albeit on the other side.
There is rarely criticism of the EU in the Irish media, even when it's richly deserved such as the handling of the migration crisis.

I think you're wrong there. The Indo has been quite regularly tabloidesque about the EU of late and pushing a fair bit of scare-mongering around the border. As for the migration crisis, there have been plenty of articles in the media about the EU approach, mostly saying it's inadequate. Perhaps you don't agree with that?

fash

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I'd actually disagree and point you to the Irish media as a case-in-point, albeit on the other side.
There is rarely criticism of the EU in the Irish media, even when it's richly deserved such as the handling of the migration crisis.

Considering that the EU has no power in relation to such extra-EU migration- it is entirely a national competence, what could be criticised?
The fact that the nation states have not given the EU power in the matter?

trellheim

Hey folks I'm over in USA for a week and missed a few days - where is it at the moment ? by the look of the thread the silliness continues

An Ciarraioch

trellheim wrote: »

Hey folks I'm over in USA for a week and missed a few days - where is it at the moment ? by the look of the thread the silliness continues

Basically, if, as assumed, an extension is granted tomorrow, that should see matters quieten down for 3-9 months.

Tell me how

trellheim wrote: »

Hey folks I'm over in USA for a week and missed a few days - where is it at the moment ? by the look of the thread the silliness continues

Few of the key points.

• Mark Francois is making a play for a second vote on Theresa May's leadership because it has become clear that people did not understand the full picture when they had a vote of confidence in her before Christmas.
• Andrea Leadsom has made a plea direct to Angela Merkel to rip uo the Withdrawal Agreement.
• Kate Hoey is demanding removal of the backstop.
• Michel Barnier has strongly reiterated the EU's support for Ireland.

So, as you can see, one of the above is living in 2019, two are still in 2017, and the 4th thinks it is the mid-90's and he is auditioning for a part on Harry Enfield and Friends.

marno21

Tell me how wrote: »

Mark Francois is making a play for a second vote on Theresa May's leadership because it has become clear that people did not understand the full picture when they had a vote of confidence in her before Christmas.

Of course, such a philosophy could never be applied to a second referendum on Brexit. Democracy is only subjectively important now.

Tell me how wrote: »

Kate Hoey is demanding removal of the backstop.

Rigorously adhering to the DUP party whip

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Post containing insults deleted.

Spook_ie

https://news.sky.com/video/theresa-may-arrives-early-to-meet-merkel-in-berlin-11688714


Looks like Merkel's not sure if she's in or out either.

MikeSoys

..they EU wont allow a no deal to happen...i feel even if brexiters were negotiating the WA ...the EU would do everthing to avoide it....

LeinsterDub

MikeSoys wrote: »

..they EU wont allow a no deal to happen...i feel even if brexiters were negotiating the WA ...the EU would do everthing to avoide it....

It takes two to tango. Both sides have to want to prevent no deal.

MikeSoys

i wonder if they sent Nigal F over.- at rhe stsrt...would he actually have got them a better deal
...cant wait for the movie 'seconds from disaster..' they will be talking out this for another 10 yrs..sigh.

Laois_Man

Spook_ie wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/video/theresa-may-arrives-early-to-meet-merkel-in-berlin-11688714


Looks like Merkel's not sure if she's in or out either.

I posted that just before you but it got deleted from some mysterious reason.

The meltdown from Brexiteers on Twitter over Merkel's "disrespect" to May is wonderful!

BASHIR

I think that headline just shows the state of the media at present.

"Where's Angela? No one greets May in Berlin
Tuesday 9 April 2019 16:29, UK"

A simple logistics mismatch blown out of proportion.

Seems more and more media are creating headlines for twitter clicks.
This crap "journalism" really doesn't help the situation. Really helps perpetuates reactionary comments and causes further division from both sides.

ancapailldorcha

One-liners deleted.

Anteayer

Given that Merkel came out, was very friendly and posed with May for plenty of photographs, I think there really is insane stuff being reported about it. These things happen. She may have been delayed or, May could also have been too early.

I'm sure that both of them are quite capable of being socially polite and friendly but it doesn't mean anything about what's going on behind the scenes, a large % of which would be discussions between officials anyway.

am i bovvered

BASHIR wrote: »

I think that headline just shows the state of the media at present.

"Where's Angela? No one greets May in Berlin
Tuesday 9 April 2019 16:29, UK"

A simple logistics mismatch blown out of proportion.

Seems more and more media are creating headlines for twitter clicks.
This crap "journalism" really doesn't help the situation. Really helps perpetuates reactionary comments and causes further division from both sides.

This type of ‘journalism’ is more and more prevalent, and the general public are living it !
IMO poor journalism (and political leadership) is responsible for the Brexit disaster. 40+ years of lazy lies splashed across the headlines, eventually people start believing it !!
My worry is that it will start happening in Ireland.

Regarding the events today, I believe they will do everything possible to avoid a no deal and a long extension will be granted. I just don’t know if that is the correct decision for the EU.