Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

judeboy101

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

Spanish Eyes

I think a long extension is probable.

Until the Twelfth of Never now.

But the blame lies with Brexiteers who thought EU would cave in. No sketch of a plan either though, just words.

Two or three days to go anyway.

Spanish Eyes

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

I don't agree sorry, I really think the UK should be obliged to make a fekkin decision!

Anyway the twelth of never beckons now.

It is painful to watch the prime minister "pleading" with EU leaders to grant another extension to the Brexit date, Arlene Foster has said.

The DUP leader told the BBC she found it "humiliating that we are having to go and beg so that we can leave".

Brexit: DUP says PM's 'pleading is humiliating'

You can leave whenever you want, Arlene. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Meanwhile, the London economy which voted Remain but is subventing Unionist parasites by €12 billion per annum, really need to cop on and stop sending their money so that Unionists and their welfare state mentality can leech off them while undermining the very same London economy. Rank hypocrisy from DUP Brexiteers, and rank stupidity from English taxpayers.

Strazdas

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

The UK is divided in five different directions and virtually at war with itself. How could that represent any form of leverage?

CalamariFritti

marno21 wrote: »

If there was someone even semi competent in opposition they would have wiped the floor with May and the Tories by now. Corbyn is less of an opposition and more of a complicit facilitator.

Why should Labour get involved? Brexit is a hard right sh1tshow and the Tories are caught in it. Leave them to it. Last thing you want to do is implicate yourself in it. I can see their point of view, Labour just wants to sit back and grab the popcorn. Couldn't blame them.

marno21

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Why should Labour get involved? Brexit is a hard right sh1tshow and the Tories are caught in it. Leave them to it. Last thing you want to do is implicate yourself in it. I can see their point of view, Labour just wants to sit back and grab the popcorn. Couldn't blame them.

I wasn't suggesting Labour get involved. I was suggesting Labour provide actual opposition to the current Tory Government. The Tories are seemingly incapable of any form of governance and have a number of senior Ministers that a proper opposition would tear apart (Grayling, Bradley, Raab etc)

A United Labour party behind a single policy position, maybe one that leans toward the 48% of the country that didn't vote for this mess, would surely be polling better than the divided disorganised Tory party who don't agree on anything, let alone a position on Brexit.

Infini

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2019/0409/1041555-brexit-europe/

The EU have drafted a provisional agreement to allow the UK to remain until the 1st of June with Brexit occurring then if the UK fail's in it's duties to fulfiil EU legal obligations regarding the EU parliamentary elections. This prevents the UK from interfering with the EU parliament should it start acting the Bollocks and gives enough time to organize backup plans if they do as the new session doesn't begin till July but keeps them inside the EU when the Elections take place. Additionally they've yet to decide a new actual date which will be decided tomorrow.

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

This is just a laughable delusion. The EU aren't petrified of a hard Brexit they're being pragmatic and watching and being patient. More time is only to OUR benefit not the UK's so long as it doesn't intefere with the running of the EU. There will be have to be a decision of some sort at some point but the way things are looking right now its all turning against the Bullshíteers as all the facts and evidence of how stupid, shortsighted and damaging this whole exercise is starting to stick enough that it could halt the whole thing and at least force a national rethink in the UK.

An Ciarraioch

EUCO draft - leaves short/long extension open-ended, if WA approved, UK would leave on 1st of subsequent month, automatically expelled on June 1st in (now unlikely) event it doesn't hold European elections:

http://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1115662778864427010

CalamariFritti

marno21 wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting Labour get involved. I was suggesting Labour provide actual opposition to the current Tory Government. The Tories are seemingly incapable of any form of governance and have a number of senior Ministers that a proper opposition would tear apart (Grayling, Bradley, Raab etc)

A United Labour party behind a single policy position, maybe one that leans toward the 48% of the country that didn't vote for this mess, would surely be polling better than the divided disorganised Tory party who don't agree on anything, let alone a position on Brexit.

I would say Labour doesn't need to do anything. Nothing they could do as an opposition party is going to inflict more damage to the Tories than what they're doing to themselves at the moment.

VinLieger

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I would say Labour doesn't need to do anything. Nothing they could do as an opposition party is going to inflict more damage to the Tories than what they're doing to themselves at the moment.

They absolutely should be polling far higher than they currently are against what has to be objectively the worst government in the countries history, the fact they arent simply puts them in contention as the worst opposition in the countries history.

Corbyn is an atrocious leader for this time specifically because of his opinions on the EU, he poasibly hates it just as much as some of the hardcore ERG members but hes leading a party that should objectively be opposing this whole mess

Infini

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I would say Labour doesn't need to do anything. Nothing they could do as an opposition party is going to inflict more damage to the Tories than what they're doing to themselves at the moment.

This whole fiasco is a purely Tory owned, created and sponsored exercise. The simple truth is that at some point the parties gonna have to take a hit one way or another as they've allowed the Ukip subversive's to aggravate an already poisonous atmosphere in the party. They not only failed in their responsibility to their nation but have turned their country into a joke and wasted everyone's time with such a vainglorious vanity project.

I think Corbyn hasn't done a good enough job to be honest and has let personal views lead him to not do a far better job than he could've but if he honestly want's to be PM he needs to listen to those who advocate a 2nd referendum either agreeing to the WA whatever form it ends up or remain being put to the people. This at least undermines the Brexiteer waster's argument about will of the people because he can argue Labour gave the people the decision to confirm their choice. Honestly if he even want's any hope of getting into no10 he needs to do this or eventually risk being dumped for someone else who actually would bother to do their job properly.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/johnjohnstonmi/status/1115581076892803073

This both looks, and sounds like something from a Ricky Gervais show.

snowstorm445

Infini wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2019/0409/1041555-brexit-europe/

The EU have drafted a provisional agreement to allow the UK to remain until the 1st of June with Brexit occurring then if the UK fail's in it's duties to fulfiil EU legal obligations regarding the EU parliamentary elections. This prevents the UK from interfering with the EU parliament should it start acting the Bollocks and gives enough time to organize backup plans if they do as the new session doesn't begin till July but keeps them inside the EU when the Elections take place. Additionally they've yet to decide a new actual date which will be decided tomorrow.



This is just a laughable delusion. The EU aren't petrified of a hard Brexit they're being pragmatic and watching and being patient. More time is only to OUR benefit not the UK's so long as it doesn't intefere with the running of the EU. There will be have to be a decision of some sort at some point but the way things are looking right now its all turning against the Bullshíteers as all the facts and evidence of how stupid, shortsighted and damaging this whole exercise is starting to stick enough that it could halt the whole thing and at least force a national rethink in the UK.

With respect, this is very doubtful. It is patently clear that Brexiteers are only going to be emboldened by any extension or watering down of Brexit; clearly the only way to create some sort of national rethink is to let Brexit happen. The vast majority of those surveyed have not changed their minds; no forecast or prediction can sway people like these. The reality of Brexit, unfortunately, is the only way to change the current dilemma and to force the British people to disown Brexiteers as a political force. Despite the absolute disaster that has been the Brexit negotiations, a solid block of around 40% polled still believe Brexit was the right decision. Thinking that this can just be wished away by cancelling Brexit is wildly optimistic.

I must say I've been disappointed with the EU's leniency vis a vis Britain, there was plenty of bluster about the EU being fed up with the British over the past few months but clearly that isn't the case with these extensions. Tusk in particular seems to think the whole thing can just roll on indefinitely. To what end? Eurosceptics across Europe will no doubt be delighted with this whole debacle as they can paint it as the UK being kept in the Union despite voting to leave. Plenty of people want to move on from this (even here in Ireland, the consensus around the government's approach to Brexit means that many issues have been put on the back burner, people will want to see an end to this so they can move forward with other issues). Indulging Britain even more is frankly poisonous to the political well-being of Europe at this stage, we need to move forward.

lawred2

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johnjohnstonmi/status/1115581076892803073

This both looks, and sounds like something from a Ricky Gervais show.

The picture of Thatcher is quite something really. Almost Blackadder levels of absurd poignancy.

listermint

lawred2 wrote: »

The picture of Thatcher is quite something really. Almost Blackadder levels of absurd poignancy.

Yep, quite extraordinary considering her pro European and pro business stance.

trashcan

listermint wrote: »

Yep, quite extraordinary considering her pro European and pro business stance.

Dunno about that. From my recollection Thatcher was as capable of being rabidly anti European as any of the current motley crew.

The whole "let my people go" Schtick is really something. It's almost like they aren't the ones going back begging for extension after extension. Nasty, nasty EU, giving them what they ask for.

Professor Moriarty

trashcan wrote: »

Dunno about that. From my recollection Thatcher was as capable of being rabidly anti European as any of the current motley crew.

The whole "let my people go" Schtick is really something. It's almost like they aren't the ones going back begging for extension after extension. Nasty, nasty EU, giving them what they ask for.

She fought regularly with the EU but there was an ex-adviser of Thatcher's on Newsnight last night.and he said that Thatcher would be appalled at the antics of the ERG and would never have supported Britain leaving the EU.

Laois_Man

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

EUCO draft - leaves short/long extension open-ended, if WA approved, UK would leave on 1st of subsequent month, automatically expelled on June 1st in (now unlikely) event it doesn't hold European elections:

http://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1115662778864427010

This is a terrible idea! I really hope this is not the way it ends up. There has to be SOME SORT of an end-date on this calamity! This would be ludicrous!

Gintonious

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johnjohnstonmi/status/1115581076892803073

This both looks, and sounds like something from a Ricky Gervais show.

Christ almighty. There must be a word beyond 'delusion' to cover his 'The EU is trying to hold us against our will' - or maybe not. How can so many be duped by so few?

Given the prominence given to the rise of populism/fascism/rightwing nationalism, and its tactics, in our school history courses, I never thought I'd live to see an entire post-WWII western European society lose the plot/fall into scapegoating and demonising outsiders.

I would like to think the inevitable public inquiries and professional historians who will investigate all this would be merciless to all these rabble-rousing populists and their media outlets. Alas, it is far, far more likely on previous form that they'll close ranks and adopt a "my country right or wrong" approach in order to create cohesion against the evil French/Germans/EU/foreigners.

I'm not very hopeful for that society at all until these people are exposed for the populist, egregiously deceitful frauds that they are.

Indestructable

Laois_Man wrote: »

This is a terrible idea! I really hope this is not the way it ends up. There has to be SOME SORT of an end-date on this calamity! This would be ludicrous!

I think the date is to be decided tomorrow at the council meeting

fash

snowstorm445 wrote: »

With respect, this is very doubtful. It is patently clear that Brexiteers are only going to be emboldened by any extension or watering down of Brexit; clearly the only way to create some sort of national rethink is to let Brexit happen. The vast majority of those surveyed have not changed their minds; no forecast or prediction can sway people like these. The reality of Brexit, unfortunately, is the only way to change the current dilemma and to force the British people to disown Brexiteers as a political force. Despite the absolute disaster that has been the Brexit negotiations, a solid block of around 40% polled still believe Brexit was the right decision. Thinking that this can just be wished away by cancelling Brexit is wildly optimistic.

I must say I've been disappointed with the EU's leniency vis a vis Britain, there was plenty of bluster about the EU being fed up with the British over the past few months but clearly that isn't the case with these extensions. Tusk in particular seems to think the whole thing can just roll on indefinitely. To what end? Eurosceptics across Europe will no doubt be delighted with this whole debacle as they can paint it as the UK being kept in the Union despite voting to leave. Plenty of people want to move on from this (even here in Ireland, the consensus around the government's approach to Brexit means that many issues have been put on the back burner, people will want to see an end to this so they can move forward with other issues). Indulging Britain even more is frankly poisonous to the political well-being of Europe at this stage, we need to move forward.

I disagree: there are different levels to this:
On a diplomatic level, the WA is on the table and the EU will make no concessions. At this level people fully understand the power discrepancy. At a business level, uncertainty further damages the UK - not the EU.
The EU doesn't really care about what happens at a "right wing press" level - who are the only ones who will see weakness. From an EU perspective, the UK is a lost cause in relation to such newspapers and those that read them

LeinsterDub

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

She fought regularly with the EU but there was an ex-adviser of Thatcher's on Newsnight last night.and he said that Thatcher would be appalled at the antics of the ERG and would never have supported Britain leaving the EU.

When the UK stopped 'fighting' with the EU and started to just mocked it started the rot.

ShooterSF

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

The problem there is you seem to be treating it as a zero sum game. Both sides to me seem to be petrified of a no deal brexit as it will be more damaging for both sides than an "orderly exit".
Even if it is my opinion that the EU should not be offering an extension when nothing over the past weeks has suggested it will solve anything I can see the reasoning behind it.

Headshot

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johnjohnstonmi/status/1115581076892803073

This both looks, and sounds like something from a Ricky Gervais show.

I suspect he's one of the main architects for members leaving the ERG which is great great to hear, hopefully Francois keeps on doing his best.

Francois belongs more in UKIP than the Conservatives tbh.

prawnsambo

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU are petrified of a no deal brexit. I really don't understand why the UK arent using this as leverage. Tusks statement on an extension show just how much they fear a rogue UK. A real brexiteer pm and cabinet , backed by a strong cabinet and party would call EU bluff and end this charade.

I see you've moved on from the EU are going to betray us on the backstop to... the EU are petrified of a no deal... and something, something, proper brexiter would, somehow make it all work, because leverage or something. Have I got that right? And could you explain how a proper brexiter like David (all in my head) Davis failed so spectacularly?

Zubeneschamali

snowstorm445 wrote: »

Tusk in particular seems to think the whole thing can just roll on indefinitely. To what end.

There is a big pile of money, a billion euros, just sitting there between the UK and EU. If Brexit happens, we burn it. If not, we split it.

And there'll be a new pile next year, and the next, and the next.

Strazdas

Laois_Man wrote: »

This is a terrible idea! I really hope this is not the way it ends up. There has to be SOME SORT of an end-date on this calamity! This would be ludicrous!

Nothing has been decided at all and the EU might choose to come down like a ton of bricks on May at the EU summit tomorrow, depending on what she asks them and what assurances she can give them

blackwhite

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I would say Labour doesn't need to do anything. Nothing they could do as an opposition party is going to inflict more damage to the Tories than what they're doing to themselves at the moment.

The problem with that approach is that it’s putting party ahead of the country - exactly what the tories are doing as well.

TBH - the whole Brexit mess can be attributed to parties being put ahead of the country, time and again, starting with Cameron trying to protect the Tories from defections to UKIP, through to May and Corbyn being more interested in playing party politics than in actually preventing the UK committing collective national suicide

10000maniacs

lawred2 wrote: »

And how would they achieve that exactly?

It's a Parliament and he would be an elected representative. They can't start getting into anything murky like censorship as that will be just grist to the mill of Brexiteers and anti EU factions across Europe.

I would have thought it was quite obvious, kick em' out if they get disruptive or silly, which is incidentally every time Farage opens his mouth in the EU Parliament.
These guys can sabotage the UK to their hearts content, but they should not be allowed to do the same thing to the EU Parliament.