Sex education in schools!

One eyed Jack

Goodshape wrote: »

Great. So we'll teach the facts of sex and sexuality in school, and you and I can both keep our "thinking" to ourselves.

We’re probably going to disagree in our perspectives as to what the facts of sex and sexuality actually are, but I don’t mind if you want to send your children to a school which shares your perspective on relationships and sex and sexuality, and I’ll send my child to a school which shares my perspective on relationships and sex and sexuality.

Does that sound agreeable to you?

Midster

Goodshape wrote: »

Great. So we'll teach the facts of sex and sexuality in school, and you and I can both keep our "thinking" to ourselves.


Hey, it's your nonsense!

Your both talking nonsense. The best form of sex education out there is from the people who have sex for a living (porn actors/actresses.) They are literal walking talking libraries of sexual knowledge.

Sex is private, and should be learned in private. Not a classroom, or at a dinner table with your mum and dad!!

For heavens sake you people!! Lol

Harvey Weinstein

Midster wrote: »

Your both talking nonsense. The best form of sex education out there is from the people who have sex for a living (porn actors/actresses.) They are literal walking talking libraries of sexual knowledge.

Sex is private, and should be learned in private. Not a classroom, or at a dinner table with your mum and dad!!

For heavens sake you people!! Lol

You really need to do a bit of research on Pornography, and how it affects many of the Women involved. Are you aware that many of them are trafficked, beaten, coerced, raped, contract HIV, STDS ...suicide is rampant. They get paid peanuts, end up broke. Its not a pretty picture.

Unless you're taking the p*ss...which I suspect you are.

Goodshape

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We’re probably going to disagree in our perspectives as to what the facts of sex and sexuality actually are

I'm afraid we might disagree that facts are debatable.

People have sex. People have sex for fun. Masturbation is healthy and normal. Sexuality and sexual attraction is complex and multifaceted, and that's nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. Open conversation around sex and sexuality is healthy and should be encouraged. Sexual health is important and should be taken care of, and is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Midster wrote: »

The best form of sex education out there is from the people who have sex for a living (porn actors/actresses.) They are literal walking talking libraries of sexual knowledge.

Sometimes. Maybe. But you can't forget that porn performers are in the entertainment business, not education. I don't think you're going to get too much useful sex ed from "BBC destroys blond MILFs 5".

eviltwin

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

You really need to do a bit of research on Pornography, and how it affects many of the Women involved. Are you aware that many of them are trafficked, beaten, coerced, raped, contract HIV, STDS ...suicide is rampant. They get paid peanuts, end up broke. Its not a pretty picture.

Unless you're taking the p*ss...which I suspect you are.

Having sex for a living doesn't make you necessarily any good at it.

Most people want their mind and emotions stimulated as much as their genitals, not sure an adult performer is able to communicate that to children.

Midster

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Most people, except those who's minds have been thoroughly corrupted by pornography, would find this proposal utterly depraved.

You are missing the blindingly obvious point, if you want to fix your car you go to a good mechanic, if you want to know about maths you go to a maths teacher, if you want to know about anything you go to the people who know what they are doing.

There are lots of different genres of sex, and were better to learn about these things than from the people who know the most about it.

Porn actresses and actors know there way around the opposites sexes body, sometimes same sex, better than anyone out there.

First time I ever tried anal with a woman, I’ll be honest, I was absolutely hopeless, and rubbish for her to. So I looked at porn on the subject, learnt, and then was so much better the second time.

Why not utilize the knowledge from the EXPERTS...

One eyed Jack

Goodshape wrote: »

I'm afraid we might disagree that facts are debatable.

People have sex. People have sex for fun. Masturbation is healthy and normal. Sexuality and sexual attraction is complex and multifaceted, and that's nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. Open conversation around sex and sexuality is healthy and should be encouraged. Sexual health is important and should be taken care of, and is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Ahh I’m not going to nitpick with you over the details but I’d agree with some of your ideas, I wouldn’t entirely agree with other parts, but I do see where you’re coming from. It wouldn’t be the kind of relationships and sex education I would be in favour of, but I wouldn’t attempt to stop an educational body from providing said form of educational services to parents or guardians for their children. I’ll just, y’know, choose not to enrol my child in that particular school.

Insect Overlord

Midster wrote: »

Why not utilize the knowledge from the EXPERTS...

Because the videos of the "experts" aren't always realistic, or practical, or even pleasurable. Obviously. They're exaggerated for entertainment value for grownups.

Harvey Weinstein

Midster wrote: »

You are missing the blindingly obvious point, if you want to fix your car you go to a good mechanic, if you want to know about maths you go to a maths teacher, if you want to know about anything you go to the people who know what they are doing.

There are lots of different genres of sex, and were better to learn about these things than from the people who know the most about it.

Porn actresses and actors know there way around the opposites sexes body, sometimes same sex, better than anyone out there.

First time I ever tried anal with a woman, I’ll be honest, I was absolutely hopeless, and rubbish for her to. So I looked at porn on the subject, learnt, and then was so much better the second time.

Why not utilize the knowledge from the EXPERTS...

I'm sorry for you, it seems you have been thoroughly corrupted.
Not everyone does anal either, that might surprise you. You might want to look at the incidence of anal prolapse too..which is extremely common amongst porn actors..not nice.

You do realise they're actors don't you? That porn is not reflective of how most people have sex.

To be honest your posts convince me that free pornography should be banned altogether.

Goodshape

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh I’m not going to nitpick with you over the details but I’d agree with some of your ideas, I wouldn’t entirely agree with other parts, but I do see where you’re coming from. It wouldn’t be the kind of relationships and sex education I would be in favour of, but I wouldn’t attempt to stop an educational body from providing said form of educational services to parents or guardians for their children.

Fair.

I’ll just, y’know, choose not to enrol my child in that particular school.

Unfortunate for your kids to deny them a worthwhile education – but I guess that's just "my opinion". You do you.

One eyed Jack

Goodshape wrote: »

Unfortunate for your kids to deny them a worthwhile education – but I guess that's just "my opinion". You do you.

This is essentially what it comes down to really. It’s certainly not about facts or anything else, it’s entirely about beliefs - you believe that I am denying my child what you consider to be a worthwhile education, I don’t. I don’t think you’d be denying your child or children a worthwhile education if you chose to educate them differently, because those are your beliefs and values.

I think we have an understanding at least that we can do ourselves and not interfere with each other, whereas the people I take issue with are those people who try and have everyone else’s children educated according to their subjective standards which are based entirely upon their beliefs and values. It’s why the proponents of the “objective” sex education bill are attempting to do an end-run around all potential objectors to try and have children educated according to their beliefs and values. It’s as if they imagine they can just bypass one of the largest and most influential education providers in the country, or they know they’re just taking the piss or putting the feelers out there to guage public interest or something

Midster

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Because the videos of the "experts" aren't always realistic, or practical, or even pleasurable. Obviously. They're exaggerated for entertainment value for grownups.

Not every type of porn is hardcore, if that’s what you’ve seen. Then you need to understand that.

AndrewJRenko

Midster wrote: »

Omg!! I would have literally died if my mum and dad tried talking to me about sex, I got all the info I ever needed from light school teaching, from friends and from porn.

Porn is under rated as an educational tool, personally if you want to learn about sex it really is the best form of education available.

Although, it could be more deliberately educating, I don’t see why there aren’t more vlogs on these easily accessible porn sights, a top porn actress teaching inexperienced boys how to please a woman, and a male porn actor teaching the girls how to please a man would do the trick.

Parents should never ever embarrass there children by even attempting the sex talk.

Look, if you're planning on calling the plumber to your house soon, please let us know in advance so we can explain the difference between a fictional performance and the real world

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Someinappropriate. That’s how children learn their social cues, and I completely disagree with you that a child shouldn’t feel embarrassed or that particular sexual acts are wrong. Kinda reminds me of a friend of mine who was into the whole fisting malarkey, and I wasn’t, hence we remained friends. One day she introduced me to her new boyfriend who extended his hand to shake mine, I told him no thanks. He knew then I knew exactly where that hand had been and I wasn’t comfortable with it. He was embarrassed by that, but that was his issue, not mine.
.

Interesting approach. It gives great insight into your thinking.

Can I just check your boundaries? Are you happy to shake hands with someone who does a bit of vaginal fingering? Or someone who does a bit of anal fingering? Does it matter to you if the giver or taker is male or female? Are you happy with getting a social kiss on the cheek from someone who performed oral sex on their husband recently?

Goodshape

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is essentially what it comes down to really. It’s certainly not about facts or anything else, it’s entirely about beliefs - you believe that I am denying my child what you consider to be a worthwhile education, I don’t. I don’t think you’d be denying your child or children a worthwhile education if you chose to educate them differently, because those are your beliefs and values.

Yeah, you're not wrong.

I believe your beliefs are getting in the way of providing your children an education. But your children, to an extent at least – and for better or worse – are your business.

I believe your beliefs should have no part in deciding what is or isn't on the school curriculum.


As I said earlier, sex and sexuality is not a liberal ideology, or a belief, or an agenda, or anything of the sort. It's a basic and fundamental part of being alive. To continue to "shield" or "protect" children from these basic facts based on your personal beliefs is, in the very least, unfortunate.

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Better get in your time machine, go back to 1986 and tell that to the Christian Brother who led our retreat.

I remember a lay teacher giving us his controversial view (given that it was a CB school) around the same era, that there was nothing wrong with a bit of self loving, provided that you weren't leaving your missus hanging.

We were in 3rd year I think - with a teacher talking about masturbation - about 40 years ago.

Tordelback

This thread is steadily convincing me that we need the most detailed sex education programme possible. So many folks looking to PornHub to improve their techniques, bloody hell!

I don't think NASA watches Star Wars for tips on their Mars mission, but it amounts to the same thing: it might well inspire prospective astronauts to want to go to space, but if they're expecting to find artificial gravity and lightsabers up there it's not going to go well.

The vast majority of porn is *fantasy*, and that's fine, I like a bit of Star Wars meself. But we urgently need to educate kids that that's what it is, to give them the info they need to draw their own conclusions. I know they have a vastly different access to information that I did growing up (the first time I saw a fanny close-up was the first time I had sex - prior to that it was line drawings in school and some shadowy bits in Cat People), but they still need guidance about how to parse and use that info.

Cordell

Stick to the Amateur sections, then it's like documentaries.

Midster

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Look, if you're planning on calling the plumber to your house soon, please let us know in advance so we can explain the difference between a fictional performance and the real world

It’s the simple act of one person pleasing another, at first you maybe nervous, but it’s not a difficult thing to do.
Pay attention to there breathing, little noises they make, if there making them then your most likely doing it right.
If not then understanding what you are doing wrong is the key to getting things right.
Watching how others do the same thing and getting better reactions than you did is a great way to learn.
By watching and learning is how most people learn most things, you can only learn so much from a book after all.
You seem to think of porn as nothing more than a performance, which suggests you might also think there reactions to these sexual acts fake, and there orgasms fake.
But what I’m saying, is that this is to broader statement, and that some porn can be an extremely educational experience.

To be honest, I don’t think of sex Ed as being an issue these days, the bigger problem that I really do think should be educated to the young is how to approach a woman, without being intimidated, and without offending her.

Sex hasn’t changed all that much since Adam and Eve, but women’s mentality has done dramatically.

One eyed Jack

Goodshape wrote: »

Yeah, you're not wrong.

I believe your beliefs are getting in the way of providing your children an education. But your children, to an extent at least – and for better or worse – are your business.

I believe your beliefs should have no part in deciding what is or isn't on the school curriculum.

It’s my fault then for misunderstanding what you intended earlier when you said that open discussion around sex and sexuality is healthy and should be encouraged. It appears now you intended it to mean open discussion around sex and sexuality from your perspective, preferring to exclude my perspective from the discussion as to what is or isn’t on the school curriculum. That’s not going to fly, and that at least is an actual fact.

Goodshape wrote: »

As I said earlier, sex and sexuality is not a liberal ideology, or a belief, or an agenda, or anything of the sort. It's a basic and fundamental part of being alive. To continue to "shield" or "protect" children from these basic facts based on your personal beliefs is, in the very least, unfortunate.

I don’t like that sort of vague statement because of course sex and sexuality aren’t a liberal ideology, and it’s true they are a basic fact of life and human relationships and so on, but, people’s values, and their attitudes and their beliefs with regards to relationships and sex and sexuality are just that, which can be an infinite number of ideological perspectives, which they have the right to either impart to their children, or protect their children from, in spite of your personal belief that it is unfortunate for those people’s children that other people don’t share your perspective on how their children should be educated.

I can understand why you imagine it’s unfortunate, it would be like someone saying to me that I don’t know what I’m missing out on if I reject their proposal. I actually do, and that’s the reason I’m not interested in their proposals - because I’m not missing out on anything as far as I’m concerned, nor is my child.

briangriffin

Goodshape wrote: »

Yeah, you're not wrong.

I believe your beliefs are getting in the way of providing your children an education. But your children, to an extent at least – and for better or worse – are your business.

I believe your beliefs should have no part in deciding what is or isn't on the school curriculum.


As I said earlier, sex and sexuality is not a liberal ideology, or a belief, or an agenda, or anything of the sort. It's a basic and fundamental part of being alive. To continue to "shield" or "protect" children from these basic facts based on your personal beliefs is, in the very least, unfortunate.

It's not a about protecting children its about allowing them to be children and then educating then about sex at an age/mature appropriate time the vast majority of parents I have met would want their children knowing the basics about puberty and how babies are made in late primary school as is currently taught. and will discuss other more nuanced areas of sexuality with their children themselves when they feel they are ready.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well that’s true of course, but I know that it’s a decision that’s made by the Board of Management in consultation with the parents. That’s generally the way it works anyway, and like I said earlier, it’s not perfect -


Parents protest use of Catholic agency to deliver sex education in Educate Together school

BOMs have, in reality, very little or no accountability.

With religious ethos schools it's worse, as the PP or bishop can veto any decision they make.

Midster wrote: »

Porn is under rated as an educational tool, personally if you want to learn about sex it really is the best form of education available.

That's absolutely nuts.

It's because teens have basically unrestricted access to porn now that they need to be educated about it. Movies aren't real life, porn isn't real sex.

Midster wrote: »

You are missing the blindingly obvious point, if you want to fix your car you go to a good mechanic

Whereas what you're talking about is like taking your car to an actor who plays a mechanic on TV.

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

BOMs have, in reality, very little or no accountability.

With religious ethos schools it's worse, as the PP or bishop can veto any decision they make.

That’s only partially true -


Boards of Management

The board of management manages the school on behalf of the patron and is accountable to the patron and the Minister. The Board must uphold the characteristic spirit (ethos) of the school and is accountable to the patron for so doing. The principal is responsible for the day-to-day management of the school, including providing guidance and direction to the teachers and other staff of the school and is accountable for that management.


https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Boards-of-Management/

Midster

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Whereas what you're talking about is like taking your car to an actor who plays a mechanic on TV.

You are being ridiculous, in case you don’t know already, they don’t have fake sex in porn, the orgasms are real.
Which means they know multiple styles of having sex, and multiple positions.
Some people like watching the experienced porn actresses, smiling at the camera and showing off, so they make films like that.
Others like more authentic reactions, they also make films like that too.
Man in charge, woman in charge, toys, bondage, masturbation, you name it.
But anyway, what I was actually trying to say originally was that the actors and actresses who are in these films should do easy to follow instructional short vids, on every query anyone might have about sex, give there honest opinion about it and show how. It wouldn’t have to be shown on another human being in the vid, just simple instructions, as these people will have done the same at there own homes, or whatever made them feel best.

osarusan

Midster wrote: »

You are being ridiculous, in case you don’t know already, they don’t have fake sex in porn, the orgasms are real.

Jesus christ, just shaking my head at this stuff.


I'd even hope that posters like this are just trolling, rather than them somehow actually believing it.

FunLover18

Midster wrote: »

You are being ridiculous, in case you don’t know already, they don’t have fake sex in porn, the orgasms are real.
Which means they know multiple styles of having sex, and multiple positions.
Some people like watching the experienced porn actresses, smiling at the camera and showing off, so they make films like that.
Others like more authentic reactions, they also make films like that too.
Man in charge, woman in charge, toys, bondage, masturbation, you name it.
But anyway, what I was actually trying to say originally was that the actors and actresses who are in these films should do easy to follow instructional short vids, on every query anyone might have about sex, give there honest opinion about it and show how. It wouldn’t have to be shown on another human being in the vid, just simple instructions, as these people will have done the same at there own homes, or whatever made them feel best.

You're the perfect example of why we need a sexual education programme that covers porn.

One eyed Jack

FunLover18 wrote: »

You're the perfect example of why we need a sexual education programme that covers porn.

Strangely enough, once you get past the whole bizarre concept of what he’s suggesting, it’s actually not all that different from people who say we should listen to prostitutes opinions on prostitution (though they only ever say we should listen to prostitutes who agree with them, not the ones who don’t share their perspective).

Just to be crystal clear - I don’t see any benefit for children in that posters suggestion, but there are already plenty of adult entertainment actors and actresses providing the kind of entertainment services that poster is talking about on social media. It’s aimed at adults only though and wouldn’t be suitable for children.

Goodshape

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It appears now you intended it to mean open discussion around sex and sexuality from your perspective, preferring to exclude my perspective from the discussion as to what is or isn’t on the school curriculum. That’s not going to fly, and that at least is an actual fact.

Actually I think you misunderstood.

Probably my fault. I did say "your beliefs should have no part in deciding what is or isn't on the school curriculum" – but I didn't mean that my beliefs would carry any more weight. My beliefs and morals should have no more say in the matter than yours, to be honest.

Open discussion should be encouraged from any perspective. Teach the differences in human sexuality. Teach the history of discrimination. Teach the different attitudes towards sexuality which exist in different cultures. Teach that no sex before marriage and abstinence is valued by some. Teach that others would consider such things unnecessary and even oppressive.

Leave the beliefs about which is right and wrong or what to do or not do to the parents and their children.

Annasopra

Midster wrote: »

It’s the simple act of one person pleasing another, at first you maybe nervous, but it’s not a difficult thing to do.
Pay attention to there breathing, little noises they make, if there making them then your most likely doing it right.
If not then understanding what you are doing wrong is the key to getting things right.
Watching how others do the same thing and getting better reactions than you did is a great way to learn.
By watching and learning is how most people learn most things, you can only learn so much from a book after all.
You seem to think of porn as nothing more than a performance, which suggests you might also think there reactions to these sexual acts fake, and there orgasms fake.
But what I’m saying, is that this is to broader statement, and that some porn can be an extremely educational experience.

To be honest, I don’t think of sex Ed as being an issue these days, the bigger problem that I really do think should be educated to the young is how to approach a woman, without being intimidated, and without offending her.

Sex hasn’t changed all that much since Adam and Eve, but women’s mentality has done dramatically.

What the hell is this nonsense that believes porn is a reality? And that all women get intimidated. Are you 14 or something?

One eyed Jack

Goodshape wrote: »

Actually I think you misunderstood.

Probably my fault. I did say "your beliefs should have no part in deciding what is or isn't on the school curriculum" – but I didn't mean that my beliefs would carry any more weight. My beliefs and morals should have no more say in the matter than yours, to be honest.

Open discussion should be encouraged from any perspective. Teach the differences in human sexuality. Teach the history of discrimination. Teach the different attitudes towards sexuality which exist in different cultures. Teach that no sex before marriage and abstinence is valued by some. Teach that others would consider such things unnecessary and even oppressive.

Leave the beliefs about which is right and wrong or what to do or not do to the parents and their children.

That’s essentially the education system we have already. Ultimately it’s parents and guardians of children who will make decisions as to how their children are to be educated according to their values and world view in schools which support their values and beliefs with regard to relationships and sexuality.

I’ve always been a firm advocate of parental rights and that’s why even though I may disagree with how other people may choose to educate their children, the relationship between parents or guardians and their children is a fundamental relationship in society which should be protected by the State, because as the State rightly recognises - the family is the primary educator of children -

EDUCATION

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.