Sex education in schools!

FunLover18

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Here's Kate Dawson on 'this morning' speaking about her belief that 8 year old children should be taught about masturbation.

Did you watch the video or just read the ticker? She literally says she doesn't normally work with kids as young as 8 and it would generally be 11-12 and mainly in secondary schools.

Harvey Weinstein

FunLover18 wrote: »

Did you watch the video or just read the ticker? She literally says she doesn't normally work with kids as young as 8 and it would generally be 11-12 and mainly in secondary schools.

Yes but she said kids as young as 8 too, why are you guys trying to deny it?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

So you did your reseach into sexual education by reading The Sun. And then quote the person involved distancing herself from the report. Right.

I accept you aren't a liar. Someone who has absolutely clueless as to how to go about doing basic research in order to form an independent opinion and is completely unaware of how stupid they look when they try, yes - but not a liar.

And most DEFINTELY done here now.

FunLover18

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Yes but she said kids as young as 8 too, why are you guys trying to deny it?

She said she has worked with kids that young (it's clearly rare, she was quick to make that point) but not that didn't say kids as young as 8 SHOULD be taught about masturbation.

One eyed Jack

FunLover18 wrote: »

But I think I you're comparing the effects of porn/video games on attitudes to sex/violence, I think it's important to compare those attitudes in the first place and they're very different. Sex whilst not openly talked about is something that's accepted as part of life whereas violence isn't. Therefore the effects of porn will vary and people, especially young people will take away different things in terms of what is acceptable/realistic whereas it's only the very rare person, possibly but not always suffering from some form of mental disorder, who will fail to disassociate video games from reality.

Violence is very much accepted as part of life - everywhere people turn, they are exposed to violence, in every medium you’d care to mention, whether it be online or offline, tv, cinema, newspapers, etc, and violence is often glorified, celebrated and monetised - how many children grew up exposed to WWE? There are still some adults who don’t grasp the concept that the E stands for Entertainment.

I think the effects of attempting to educate young people will vary as much as the effects of exposure to porn or violence or religion or anything else you’d care to think of - everyone is going to assimilate the information in whatever way does or doesn’t fit with what they already do or don’t believe already - it either makes sense to them, or it doesn’t, based upon their own individual experiences, interests and how they interpret information which is imparted to them. The idea that children will assimilate information in the same way and retain that information throughout their lives and apply it in all contexts related to relationships and sexuality is wishful thinking, at best.

It’s understandable though why it would be wishful thinking on the part of the educator - because the outcome is more based upon hope of a particular outcome as opposed to being able to predict with any degree of certainty what the outcome will be. That’s why evidence of the negative influence of pornography or violence in society just don’t stand up to scrutiny - everyone in any given society is exposed to pornography and violence, yet it’s only a very small minority of those people who are exposed to pornography or violence actually fail to distinguish between fantasy and reality. They would still fail to distinguish between fantasy and reality in spite of however they were educated, simply because they can’t relate what they’re being told, with what they actually experience in their idea of reality.

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think objective was possibly the wrong word. Obviously each parent is going to have different views on what they want their child to learn or be exposed to, so by "objective" I mean that the education system shouldn't have this protective attitude, parents should have the option to take children out of classes but I don't think the state should be overly concerned with causing "offence". So take for example sexuality, I think this should form part of the curriculum because different sexualities exist and are a fact of every day life, children are going to encounter it as an issue possibly have to go through that themselves, so to me a parent asking that it not be part of the curriculum because it offends them is akin to a parent asking for evolution to be taken out of the curriculum.

Bear in mind we're talking about children which covers a very wide age range and I'm not suggesting or advocating that any child in primary school be shown porn.

I get the general point you’re making alright, but the State is obligated to have a protective attitude for the common good of society - it’s precisely why we have laws which prohibit all sorts of behaviours towards others, and even prevent the State from interfering in the life of the family to the degree that some people here would want the State to be able to do.

In introducing any new education policy too, Government has to be cognisant of the common good, and I expect you would have no difficulty in convincing the current Government of the need for reform in relationships and sexuality education. You’ll have a much harder time of course convincing anyone that disregarding the characteristic spirit of the school is in the interests of the common good of society, simply because every stakeholder involved in education in Ireland has their own subjective stance on what is or isn’t in the interests of the common good of society.

That’s precisely why we have the current education system we do now where there is a national curriculum, and then the patron bodies who qualify for funding are able to have their own curriculum, and then the schools, through the Board of Management in consultation with the parents, is able to further customise the template from the Department of Education in formulating the relationships and sex education policy. It’s not perfect by any means, but none of those stakeholders involved are going to support a system which attempts to undermine their values which form the characteristic spirit of the schools under their patronage.

Ultimately the State has to have regard for the rights of the parents or guardians of children as the primary educators of their children, as opposed to lobby groups with their own ideas regarding relationships and sexuality that they wish to impose upon children contrary to their parents values. I know you’re not advocating showing children porn, but I would go further and suggest I wouldn’t advocate pornography being used in any context within the school. It’s meant for adults and simply shouldn’t be up for discussion among an audience who aren’t adults.

AndrewJRenko

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

I'm not trying to rile anyone up, the person I'm talking about is heavily involved in formulating the new RSE syllabus. And has written several papers which were an integral part of the research in creating the new proposed course of study.

Which parts of the proposed new curriculum do you have a problem with?

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Anyway obviously many here just don't seem to get it. Some of the priests brought the boys up to their dorm and showed them pornos back in the day (happened in my school)
Now they'll just show them pornos in class..if you can't beat em join em I suppose.

If you need someone to explain the difference to the two scenarios to you, you've really no business taking part in this thread.

Harvey Weinstein

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So you did your reseach into sexual education by reading The Sun. And then quote the person involved distancing herself from the report. Right.

I accept you aren't a liar. Someone who has absolutely clueless as to how to go about doing basic research in order to form an independent opinion and is completely unaware of how stupid they look when they try, yes - but not a liar.

And most DEFINTELY done here now.

Yeah the Sun citation is one of thousands from a 159 page document.
Perhaps you should read it. Kate Dawson was certainly happy with the Suns article on her.

The bottom line is, as much as you want to deny, deflect, distract, derail.

That the Govt are going to introduce a programme..whereby Pornographic films or clips of pornographic films are going to be shown in class to children. And Masturbation is going to be taught to children in primary schools.

This is going to end very very badly for you guys..very badly.
You're so far down the rabbit hole that you have lost touch with ordinary people and naively assume parents will be on board with this..they won't.
down the line you will be denying that that you ever endorsed this in the first place....mark it.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you need someone to explain the difference to the two scenarios to you, you've really no business taking part in this thread.

People also need to realise that they aren't anonymous on the internet even if they think they are and certain statements could lead them into legal problems.

Harvey Weinstein

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

Yeah the Sun citation is one of thousands from a 159 page document.
Perhaps you should read it. Kate Dawson was certainly happy with the Suns article on her.

The bottom line is, as much as you want to deny, deflect, distract, derail.

That the Govt are going to introduce a programme..whereby Pornographic films or clips of pornographic films are going to be shown in class to children. And Masturbation is going to be taught to children in primary schools.

This is going to end very very badly for you guys..very badly.
You're so far down the rabbit hole that you have lost touch with ordinary people and naively assume parents will be on board with this..they won't.
down the line you will be denying that that you ever endorsed this in the first place....mark it.

In other words you've been caught out again being let's say economical with the truth.

AndrewJRenko

Harvey Weinstein wrote: »

That the Govt are going to introduce a programme..whereby Pornographic films or clips of pornographic films are going to be shown in class to children. And Masturbation is going to be taught to children in primary schools.

Where exactly in the proposed curriculum (screenshot above) did you get these two gems.

And just to clarify - there is a difference between being taught ABOUT masturbation and being taught masturbation. Which of these two options do you think might be part of the curriculum?

Harvey Weinstein

DubInMeath wrote: »

In other words you've been caught out again being let's say economical with the truth.

When this rolls out we'll see who was right and who was wrong.

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where exactly in the proposed curriculum (screenshot above) did you get these two gems.

And just to clarify - there is a difference between being taught ABOUT masturbation and being taught masturbation. Which of these two options do you think might be part of the curriculum?

I’m struggling to think of any context in which it would be appropriate for an adult to educate children ABOUT masturbation

Also, that’s not a curriculum you linked to earlier btw, it’s nothing more than a few discussion headings, which will have the NCCA told to go back to the drawing board, again.

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m struggling to think of any context in which it would be appropriate for an adult to educate children ABOUT masturbation

.

The context would be sex education as part of the school curriculum. Have you never gotten over being told that it was dirty?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Also, that’s not a curriculum you linked to earlier btw, it’s nothing more than a few discussion headings, which will have the NCCA told to go back to the drawing board, again.

The 'few discussion headings' is actually an eighty page report. Try reading it.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m struggling to think of any context in which it would be appropriate for an adult to educate children ABOUT masturbation .

The CBS secondary I attended did, mainly that it was a perfectly natural act
Helped that there were no actual CBs left in the school at the time most likely.

Parents were given a brief of the lesson plans and the fact that topics would be discussed openly or as openly as you can get 14 year olds to, and given the option to have their kids attend the classes or not.

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The context would be sex education as part of the school curriculum. Have you never gotten over being told that it was dirty?

Yeah like I said - I still can’t think of any context in which it would be appropriate for an adult to educate children about masturbation. I’m even more perplexed by your second remark as it came out of nowhere and doesn’t relate to anything I said

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The 'few discussion headings' is actually an eighty page report. Try reading it.

I’ve read the report already, that’s why I said they’ll be going back to the drawing board with it, in the same way as they had to go back to the drawing board with their ERBE report.

That still doesn’t take from the fact that all you linked to was a few headings from the report. The report itself (or at least a 95 page draft copy of the report) is here -


Draft Report on the Review of Relationships and Sexuality Education (RSE) in primary and post- primary schools

One eyed Jack

DubInMeath wrote: »

The CBS secondary I attended did, mainly that it was a perfectly natural act Helped that there were no actual CBs left in the school at the time most likely.

Parents were given a brief of the lesson plans and the fact that topics would be discussed openly or as openly as you can get 14 year olds to, and given the option to have their kids attend the classes or not.

I get that and all, but it still doesn’t change my mind that I personally don’t consider it appropriate for adults to educate children about masturbation. I understand the context in which it’s presented as something which I should find acceptable - the idea being knowledge of masturbation imparted to children by their teacher, but that doesn’t make it any more appropriate IMO.

I’m not opposed to teachers educating children and I’ve been very fortunate that my child has always had great teachers who inspired him and I know he has a great relationship with all of his teachers, but the topic of masturbation has never come up in conversation. I can’t remember it ever coming up in any conversations I ever had with any of my own teachers either, and I didn’t have to be taught that such topics of conversation were simply inappropriate in those contexts.

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get that and all, but it still doesn’t change my mind that I personally don’t consider it appropriate for adults to educate children about masturbation. I understand the context in which it’s presented as something which I should find acceptable - the idea being knowledge of masturbation imparted to children by their teacher, but that doesn’t make it any more appropriate IMO.
.

What specifically is inappropriate about covering masturbation as part of a sex education class?

briangriffin

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What specifically is inappropriate about covering masturbation as part of a sex education class?

Depending on the class level late primary or early secondary pupils development may be very different in terms of body maturity and their actual maturity. Some children are very advanced some are very innocent. The problem with assuming children have a similar outlook to you as an adult is you forget that there are different levels of maturity.

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What specifically is inappropriate about covering masturbation as part of a sex education class?

What part of “I don’t think it’s appropriate in any context for an adult to be talking to children about masturbation”, are you having difficulty with, specifically?

Unless you’re one of these idiots, masturbabation is an activity you keep to yourself.

Insect Overlord

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What part of “I don’t think it’s appropriate in any context for an adult to be talking to children about masturbation”, are you having difficulty with, specifically?

Unless you’re one of these idiots, masturbabation is an activity you keep to yourself.

Hygiene could be an important lesson, for one. Throw in a bit about not doing it in public, but not to feel guilty about doing it somewhere private. You're probably looking at half a 40-minute class on the topic. It's not like it would be a full module with a practical exam at the end. :pac:

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What part of “I don’t think it’s appropriate in any context for an adult to be talking to children about masturbation”,

Who else is going to o talk to them I doubt your going to talk to your own child/children,

Sounds like let's have no sex education because people can't handle the idea it

Wanderer78

Insect Overlord wrote:

Hygiene could be an important lesson, for one. Throw in a bit about not doing it in public, but not to feel guilty about doing it somewhere private. You're probably looking at half a 40-minute class on the topic. It's not like it would be a full module with a practical exam at the end.

I'm all for more practical based work in our educational system, there's too much text book stuff, they might need some tissues for this one though

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

Who else is going to o talk to them I doubt your going to talk to your own child/children,

Sounds like let's have no sex education because people can't handle the idea it

Why do you leap to the other extreme of thinking I’m saying no sex education if I say one thing is inappropriate? I talk to my own child when the subject of sex comes up, where it has context. I’ve never sat him down and interrogated him about what he does or doesn’t know because I’ve never had to.

As IO suggests above I’m fine with teaching children about basic hygiene and so forth as it’s done in school already, one doesn’t need to go into that level of detail. Talking to people about having respect for themselves and their bodies and respect for other people and their bodies conveys the idea of not exposing yourself to others and understanding that some things are private and inappropriate in public, nobody wants to know about someone else’s masturbatory habits.

I understand of course that other people see nothing inappropriate about discussing their masturbatory habits with other people, but it’s not something I personally would be encouraging children to discuss with adults, nor would I be comfortable with adults discussing their masturbatory habits with children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What part of “I don’t think it’s appropriate in any context for an adult to be talking to children about masturbation”, are you having difficulty with, specifically?

Unless you’re one of these idiots, masturbabation is an activity you keep to yourself.

As has been stated (and apparently needs to be stated again) they're not actually doing it in the class, so why is the level of maturity an issue?

Gatling

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why do you leap to the other extreme of thinking I’m saying no sex education if I say one thing is inappropriate?

As IO suggests above I’m fine with teaching children about basic hygiene and so forth as it’s done in school already, o.

So masturbation is a no no ,

Which makes Oral a no

Full sex a no

Gay or lesbian sex no .

But hygiene is fine ,

I honestly feel pity for some in 2019 that sex education is a no no

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

As has been stated (and apparently needs to be stated again) they're not actually doing it in the class, so why is the level of maturity an issue?

Are you sure you’re replying to the correct post? At no point have I ever given any indication I assumed they were masturbating in class or giving any sort of demonstration nor was there any sort of role play involved. I also didn’t say anything about anyone’s level of maturity? I don’t know how much more explicit you need anyone to be, but I would think most people are able to understand the concept that some things are inappropriate to discuss with other people.

Masturbation happens to be one of those things I think is inappropriate for discussion with other people. I encourage people when they feel someone is being inappropriate to say it to the person, or make it clear to them that they’re being inappropriate. In my experience children are generally better than adults at getting their heads around that concept.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Are you sure you’re replying to the correct post? At no point have I ever given any indication I assumed they were masturbating in class or giving any sort of demonstration nor was there any sort of role play involved. I also didn’t say anything about anyone’s level of maturity? I don’t know how much more explicit you need anyone to be, but I would think most people are able to understand the concept that some things are inappropriate to discuss with other people.

Masturbation happens to be one of those things I think is inappropriate for discussion with other people. I encourage people when they feel someone is being inappropriate to say it to the person, or make it clear to them that they’re being inappropriate. In my experience children are generally better than adults at getting their heads around that concept.

The one where the poster felt the need to state that the act should be a private activity. You or someone else?

One eyed Jack

Gatling wrote: »

So masturbation is a no no ,

Which makes Oral a no

Full sex a no

Gay or lesbian sex no .

But hygiene is fine ,

I honestly feel pity for some in 2019 that sex education is a no no

Nobody needs your pity, basic respect would be nice, y’know, the bit you snipped out of my post, that which forms the fundamental basis of relationships with other people. I would think that would be a more important discussion to have with children than any concerns you have about their sex lives.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The one where the poster felt the need to state that the act should be a private activity. You or someone else?

Ah right, yeah that was me, I thought it was clear I was making the point in relation to discussions about masturbation, which is what had started this whole tangent - Andrew making the point that discussion would be ABOUT masturbation. I made the point that I can think of no context where it would be appropriate for adults to be educating children about masturbation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ah right, yeah that was me, I thought it was clear I was making the point in relation to discussions about masturbation, which is what had started this whole tangent - Andrew making the point that discussion would be ABOUT masturbation. I made the point that I can think of no context where it would be appropriate for adults to be educating children about masturbation.

Well, they're going to find out some way.

That said, it shouldn't be an issue. Just a case of i's natural, virtually everyone does it, do it in private, don't feel bad about it.

Reduce the chances of guilt or hangups beacuse that is what week mess with a child's head.