Private Profiles - an update on how they will be changing here
We've partnered up with to offer a space where you can talk directly to Peter from and get an exclusive discount code for a free job listing. If you are recruiting or know anyone else who is please check out the forum here.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    (deleted again - that poster had one of the shortest Boards careers ever...)

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    Interesting letter from Peter Boylan in last Saturday's IT. Almost three years of the delay to the NMH project was caused by the nuns applying to the Vatican for approval to transfer ownership of St. Vincent's.

    Sir, – Stephen Collins is incorrect that delay in progressing the National Maternity Hospital move to Elm Park was "caused by claims that the hospital would be subject to dictates from the nuns who run St Vincent's Hospital" ("National Maternity Hospital decision is a welcome sign of the Government's backbone", Opinion & Analysis, May 20th).

    The first delay was between November 2014 and November 2016 after St Vincent’s rejected the original plan of NMH co-location on its campus, insisting instead on full ownership of the new hospital.

    Progress stalled for two years as two government-sponsored mediations between the hospitals failed, before NMH Master Dr Rhona Mahony and deputy chair Nicholas Kearns conceded in September 2016 to the third mediator, Kieran Mulvey, that, “We are willing to dissolve the [NMH] Charter and agree that the ownership of what is now the NMH will transfer to the ownership of SVHG, a private company owned by the Sisters of Charity.”

    This concession formed the basis of the Mulvey report of November 2016, welcomed by then minister for health Simon Harris.

    Five months later in April 2017, there was public uproar when it emerged that a Catholic religious order which had run Magdalene laundries would own the new NMH.

    Mr Harris then asked the NMH and SVHG boards to enter a month-long negotiation process to agree a new ownership structure.

    An apparent breakthrough came on May 29th when the Sisters of Charity announced they would transfer their shareholding in SVHG to a new private charity St Vincent’s Holdings (SVH). Simultaneously, however, SVHG chairman James Menton insisted the move would “only proceed on the basis of existing agreements that give ownership and control of the new hospital to St Vincent’s Healthcare Group”. SVH directors would be committed to “upholding the values and vision” of Mother Mary Aikenhead.

    The Sisters’ shareholding transfer to SVH required three related steps: Vatican approval, registration with the Charities Regulator, and HSE approval (as SVHG is a Section 38 organisation).

    Eighteen months later, however, a spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Dublin confirmed in December 2018 that the Sisters had not commenced the Vatican approval process.

    A further 15 months elapsed before Vatican approval – conditional on the observation of specified canon laws – was issued on March 16th, 2020, adding up to nearly three years of delay on the part of the Sisters of Charity and Rome.

    Registration of SVH with the Charities Regulator was filed on August 18th, 2020.

    A further delay of 19 months ensued during which the HSE board considered concerns about the ownership and governance arrangements raised by its audit and risk committee. Prof Deirdre Madden and Dr Sarah McLoughlin dissented from the board’s majority decision to grant approval eventually taken on March 14th, 2022.

    The constitution of St Vincent’s Holdings was only then filed with the Companies Registration Office.

    What has not delayed the process – but in my view should have – are the following: Government approval of the business case for the project (still under review after three previous rejections); the outcome of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s audit on spending on the project (commenced in August 2021); and scrutiny of the full correspondence between the Sisters of Charity and the Vatican on the terms and conditions for setting up St Vincent’s Holdings. – Yours, etc,


    Dublin 6.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,313 ✭✭✭ Igotadose

    Criminal enterprise slow walking the badly needed NMH and of course hiding behind the Vatican when it's convenient. Plus extra bonus of just leasing the land to the government for 300 years, where you can be sure the RCC will still be around and up to some 24th century mischief.

    Part of the overbearing influence of the RCC in Irish daily life and especially in Irish politics. Why is the Church allowed to get away with this crap? Because it's o.k. with the RCC types as shown in the "Fall of the Catholic Church' thread. @Hotblack Desiato you should post this letter from Dr. Boylan there.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,935 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious

    Thanks, you're on the ball 😀. In passing, where do I locate the edit thingy so I can adjust words/wording in my posts.

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe

    The 3 dots by the post number. But you only have 24 hours.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭ Bredabe

    If you go to the top of the posting box, where the post no is, click beside this and it will show you the edit button and how long left you have to edit that post.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    That's on desktop, I've no idea if/how it works on mobile as I don't use it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    The woman at the centre of the ‘Miss D’ case in 2007 has said she is “enraged” and “hurt deeply” that women with fatal foetal abnormality diagnoses still have to leave Ireland for abortions.

    Amy Dunne was 16 and in State care when she became pregnant. She found out her baby had anencephaly — a fatal condition where parts of the baby’s skull are missing — on her 17th birthday.

    Speaking at an event on Wednesday to mark the fourth anniversary of the repeal of the 8th amendment, she said that within moments of telling her social worker she wanted to terminate her pregnancy, she was threatened with a murder charge and told that both the Garda and the passport office would be informed she was not permitted to travel for an abortion.

    “I was to carry this pregnancy to the end without any empathy or consideration for my mental health,” said Ms Dunne. In May 2007, the High Court ruled she was legally entitled to travel for an abortion.

    Wednesday’s event, hosted by the National Women’s Council (NWC), heard despite that 2018 legislation permitting abortion on request up to 12 weeks, many women still faced barriers. These include a mandatory three-day waiting period between requesting an abortion and receiving abortifacient medication; geographical inconsistencies in availability of GPs providing abortion services; and, for women with a diagnosis of a foetal abnormality, two doctors must agree her baby would die within 28 days of birth for it to be deemed fatal. Where there was a doubt over how long the baby would live after birth, the woman must still travel after 12 weeks.

    Ms Dunne said the traumas she experienced were “lifelong”.

    “The most difficult part was to leave my baby in Liverpool. No time to see my daughter’s face, no time to sober up after the medication that was needed in my 16-hour labour — just crawling on to a plane, heavily bleeding and trying to hide the shame and hurt while picturing my daughter in a room in a different country.

    “All these years later, I still have traumas and these are lifelong. I have contacted undertakers and hospitals, even after 15 years, trying to find out what my baby looked like. I’ve contemplated digging her up many times just to try to get the time that wasn’t given to me.

    “It hurts deeply to know, like my story, many are still living through this ordeal. I am speaking out today because I want to help ensure that no woman has to travel abroad for basic healthcare that she should be able to receive at home . . . What’s still happening today is not what people voted for four years ago.”

    Dr Marion Dyer, a GP based in Blanchardstown, Dublin, said when she listened to Ms Dunne all she could think was, “Ireland, you are so cruel to women”.

    “What I hear being described by Amy meets the definition of torture,” she said.

    The NWC published data showing just one in 10 GPs offer abortion services, and just 11 of the 19 maternity units or hospitals in Ireland provide abortion services.

    The 2018 Act is currently being reviewed. Among changes needed, says the NWC, are extending the current 12-week limit to abortion on request, removal of the three-day wait time, decriminalisation, and broadening the definition of fatal foetal abnormality.


    Would love to know who those cnuts were who threatened her. In care or not, she had an explicit constitutional right to travel. No doubt they were fully paid-up members of the catholic cult, the state paying their wages but they were really working for the church not for us...

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    Ongoing restrictions of the new legal framework mean that many women and pregnant people continue to find themselves ineligible for care. Close to 600 Irish residents were forced to travel to the UK in 2019 and 2020, and many others will have taken abortion pills without clinical oversight or support.

    This is linked to the fact that abortion currently is only available on request up to 12 weeks, with a three-day mandatory waiting period necessitating two GP consultations, as well as a gestational dating scan in some cases. After 12 weeks, abortion is only allowed on the grounds of risk to health and fatal foetal anomalies.

    In addition to the legal restrictions, geographical coverage of abortion services is poor. Just one in 10 GPs are providing abortion care in the community and only 11 of our 19 maternity hospitals provide full services in line with the law. Outside of our cities the picture is poor, with half of all counties having less than 10 GPs offering the service. When we map GP provision against population density, it appears that Mayo and Wexford in particular may be undersupplied.

    The reality of poor coverage is an increased burden on service users, and this can make access to care within the tight 12-week time frame all the more challenging. Research by Dr Lorraine Grimes and the Abortion Rights Campaign suggests service users are having to travel considerable distances — 30 per cent of respondents reported travel of 4-6 hours to access abortion care. For those in the disabled community, women in situations of domestic abuse who do not have freedom to leave the house and lone parents without childcare, access can be a real challenge.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    I thought this sort of thing only happened in places like Guatemala. Not in the US with Roe v. Wade still, for now, in place. In Cali-fcukin-fornia of all places.

    On 4 November 2019, TV stations across California blasted Chelsea Becker’s photo on their news editions. The “search was on” for a “troubled” 25-year-old woman wanted for the “murder of her unborn baby”, news anchors said, warning viewers not to approach if they spotted her but to call the authorities.

    The next day, Becker was asleep at the home she was staying in when officers with the Hanford police department arrived.

    “The officer had a large automatic weapon pointed at me and a K-9 [dog],” Becker, now 28, recalled in a recent interview. “I walked out and surrendered.”

    Two months before, Becker had had a stillbirth at a California hospital, losing a baby boy at eight months pregnant. The King’s county prosecutor in the central valley charged her with “murder of a human fetus”, alleging she had acted with “malice” because she had been struggling with drug addiction and the hospital reported meth in her system.

    Becker’s attorneys argued there was no evidence that substance use caused the stillbirth and California law did not allow for this type of prosecution in the first place. Still, she spent 16 months in jail awaiting trial before a judge dismissed the charges.

    Becker’s nightmare offers a preview of the kinds of criminal cases that could become commonplace in the US if the supreme court, as expected after the leak of a draft opinion last month, officially overturns Roe v Wade. In the states that outlaw abortion, advocates warn, pregnancy losses more broadly will be treated as potential crimes, including in cases of wanted pregnancies. Even with Roe in effect, women have repeatedly faced arrest and charges for their pregnancy outcomes.

  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    She was uncontrollably bleeding when she arrived at the Adventist Health Hanford hospital, a faith-based organization, and roughly two hours later lost the child.

    Staff treated her with suspicion, Becker said. Her mother learned before her that the baby had not survived, Becker recalled in an email interview. “I was in shock, physically from the blood loss and mentally from the news,” she said.

    She briefly held her baby, she said, and wondered whether he could have survived if the hospital had done an emergency C-section. She also wondered why she received blood transfusions only hours after she had arrived in distress.

    The next morning, she said, she discovered that the hospital had left her baby on a table at the other end of the room for hours on end. She also learned that hospital staff had called the police.

    “Why the hospital staff called the police to take my baby away is still so troubling. That image of me lying in the hospital bed with my deceased son left on a table, seemingly abandoned, is an image I will never forget,” she said.

    Pro-life, eh?

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,935 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious

    So it looks like the prosecutor went after Chelsea Becker on the charge of murder because she [based on the hospital's reported findings of meth in her system] was abusive to the feotus in her womb and was the causal agent in the stillbirth of the feotus. If the USSC chooses to dump the R-V-W judgement in the bin, then it'll be providing another weapon to people in electable legal office to use against girls and women without any visible religious credo or belief being behind the prosecution decision. The fact that two months went by without any direct legal action against Chelsea after the stillbirth loss may tend to indicate the action was legally questionable to anyone reading the papers before her arrest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,313 ✭✭✭ Igotadose

    A well written takedown of the lie that Susan B. Anthony, pioneer for women's equality in the US, was anti-abortion, or in fact interested in the subject much at all.

    That of course doesn't stop the lying forced birth types from coopting her name into their vile "Susan B. Anthony" list. But, as always with forced birthers, they're economical with the truth.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    More than 200 women travelled from the Republic of Ireland to access abortion services in Britain last year, according to new figures from UK health services.

    Some 206 women gave addresses in the Republic when seeking abortions in England and Wales in 2021, a very small increase compared to 194 women who travelled from the Republic for abortions in 2020 when Covid-19 travel restrictions were in place.

    The new figures from Britain show in about half of the cases women were travelling from the Republic for abortions where there was a foetal abnormality, which previously had accounted for a third of cases in 2020. There was an 18 per cent drop in the number of abortions carried out up to 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    Commenting on the figures, Niall Behan, chief executive of the Irish Family Planning Association, said the number of Irish women travelling to Britain for abortions showed the law permitting abortions in the Republic was “not good enough”.

    Mr Behan said legislation introduced in 2018 was “denying care to women and girls and forcing them to seek abortion services in the UK”, which he said was an “unacceptable injustice”.

    One of the main issues was a mandatory three-day waiting period for women seeking to access abortion care, he said. “We know from our services that the law is also forcing some who present at under 12 weeks of pregnancy to travel outside of Ireland for abortion services,” he said.

    Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly late last year announced a review of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018, which sets out the provision of abortion services.

    Mr Behan said the law had “serious flaws” and “restrictive” provisions, which was forcing pregnant women to access abortions outside of the State.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭ uptherebels

    They don't seem to have learned from what happened here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato

    Doctors at the Rosie Hospital in Cambridge said her life was in danger if she carried on with the pregnancy.

    In her tweet, she said: "Abortion saves lives. But I've come to the conclusion that actually, people know this.

    "You know the astonishing complexity of pregnancy, you know people get coerced, you know people are simply too poor to cope, you know all the myriad reasons someone might need safe access to abortion. The sickening thing is, you just don't care."

    She said the message coming from the US was "both expected and deeply, deeply wrong".