Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Hotblack Desiato

Finally

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0727/1312396-safe-access-zone-legislation/

Cabinet has approved the introduction of legislation on "safe access zones" which propose a buffer of 100 metres around any healthcare facilities that can provide termination of pregnancy.

Under the proposed laws anti-abortion protesters could be fined or jailed for demonstrating outside healthcare settings.

This will, in effect, see the introduction of exclusion zones around all hospitals, all GP practices and Well Woman or Irish Family Planning Association services.

Cork-based GP Dr Mary Favier has welcomed the move.

Speaking on RTÉ's Drivetime, Dr Favier said: "It has been exceptionally difficult for our patients to come into our surgery and take the risk of having protesters.

"For instance, there have been protests at my practice even on days when I'm not there (with) no abortion provision taking place but all patients being harassed and staff being harassed.

"It's not a particularly common problem but when it does occur it's very persistent. In our practice we've had a few episodes of it, but in some practices, particularly in rural areas, it's been really persistent.

"Numbers of people gather outside surgeries with placards, shouting and shaming people as they come in, all patients and not just patients accessing abortion services.

"We're really looking forward to the fact that it will remove this intimidation.

"We really respect the right to protest and that's a really important thing that we would acknowledge but in the appropriate place. Not in front of healthcare settings."

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119398648#Comment_119398648

That legislation, whenever it finally passes, will be challenged early on. It will be an interesting one to watch for a variety of reasons.

I presume with this "10. displaying any item, whether symbolic or otherwise, with the intended or likely effect of influencing a person’s decision to access termination of pregnancy services" they are attempting to deal with things like coffin displays.

I can think of a few Senators that must be having a nervous breakdown.

Hotblack Desiato

But it'll equally ban all of those pro-abortion protests we keep having outside hospitals and surgeries 😉

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402738#Comment_119402738

A risk that we should be willing to take.

Loafing Oaf

Missede this at the time but think it might be a sraw in the wind

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0712/1309865-abortion-ireland/

Mr Martin described some of the findings in the report as "disturbing" and said the analysis by Dr Catherine Conlon, Assistant Professor of Social Studies at Trinity College Dublin, would feed into this review of the legislation...

Dr Conlon explained that two clinicians need to give an opinion on whether a foetus will survive before or within 28 days of birth, leaving a lot of scope for clinical opinions and leading to painful delays for those involved.

I suspect we can anticipate a significant broadening of the definition of the kind of foetal anomaly that qualifies for a later term abortion, if not quite the full decriminalisation sought by Brid Smith et al.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414942#Comment_119414942

Thanks. As always, the HSE drags its heels and we all suffer. Too much RCC influence throughout the HSE still, unfortunately.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414942#Comment_119414942

I am not sure how you can do that to be honest. That issue was a key part of the debates prior to referendum, most especially by the 8th Amendment Committee. It's hard to see how you broaden the scope of that provision without effectively allowing for abortion on the grounds of disability. Some will argue that that is fine and that's what pro-choice is about, some will argue very differently. It's just 4 years since the Constitutional referendum and I would not be convinced the electorate is ready to reopen that debate. Whatever, about the electorate if the Government decide to reopen that debate it will overshadow the second half of their term of office.

I wouldn't want to take away too much from the quoted study as it is the first comprehensive Irish based research, but the sample size was tiny relatively speaking.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414954#Comment_119414954

This is not really a HSE issue. The HSE can only implement the law given to them.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417138#Comment_119417138

I don't see why it should be such a huge palaver; the government can legislate however it wants now, that was the whole point of repeal. The political point of further liberalisation would be shooting the opposition's fox; would be little hay to be made in pushing for even more liberal abortion. And there would be little conservative backlash at the ballot box because FF and FG would both own the move.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417221#Comment_119417221

I wouldn't be sure to be honest. While abortion isn't a rural v urban issue in the normal sense, notwithstanding the referendum result, rural Ireland tends to be more traditional and conservative. The Government's opening of the disability debate again, not least while rural Ireland is fracturing (Climate crisis, energy and the general perceived impact of a Government with the Greens in it). More likely, a good old Oireachtas Committee will be established, at best, and the can will be kicked down the road.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417374#Comment_119417374

As always with issues like immigration or climate change the question arises: where are these supposedly disenfranchised traditional voters going to go if both FF and FG have gone over to the dark/liberal side? There are probably a fair few people alright who are broadly pro-choice but don't want any further liberalisation of the law; the question is are they bothered enough about the issue to change their vote over it?

I don't think there is enough time to long-finger the issue until the GE: the government either changes the law over the next year or so or announces it's the status quo for the rest of its term.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417140#Comment_119417140

The HSE does choose the rate at which they implement it. One of the articles linked to the HSE establishing a committee in 2020 to address this. Well, that was a year after the legislation was in place (2 years post-referendum) and still nothing. Delay/obstruct/deny - the HSE/RCC way. Hoping we all forget it but we won't.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417140#Comment_119417140

But they're not doing that. Half of maternity hospitals do not provide abortions.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418262#Comment_119418262

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the HSE works.

abortion services are Consultant ob-gyn led. Consultant Ob-Gyns are hard to recruit in the first instance. Even harder to find ones that do not have a conscientious objection to abortion and harder still to recruit outside such posts outside of Dublin. The articles that you link to reflect the objection issue - which is fundamentally no surprise given abortion was only legalised 4 years ago and given there remains deeply held difference of views, not just in the public but also in the medical profession. Would like to see your evidence that HSE abortion service decisions are based on RCC influence.

You only have to look at the wide range and large number of medical professional gaps in the Health System at the moment to understand that recruitment, especially of specialist posts, is extremely difficult. Abortion services are no different to other parts of the system, but there's never room for mature honest debate from either side in the abortion topic - everything appears to be a conspiracy.

robindch

Republicans in the US talk endlessly of their support for live births and something they refer to as "family values". The NYT looked into whether Republican-controlled states actually enact policies which support children and families, or whether Republicans tend, at the end of the day, to be hypocrites:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/28/upshot/abortion-bans-states-social-services.html

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420954#Comment_119420954

It's not acceptable that consultants which are well-remunerated from the public purse can simply refuse to carry out part of their job.

Simi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422102#Comment_119422102

Exactly it's healthcare. You shouldn't be allowed conscientiously object to a key part of obstetric care. It's ridiculous and a complete dereliction of the duty of care.

wench

Interesting result in the Kansas vote to add abortion restrictions to their state constitution - rejected 2 : 1

Anti-abortion support may not be as strong as Republicans would like to believe...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/03/kansas-abortion-vote-state-constitution

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422338#Comment_119422338

Unsurprisingly, abortion is widely popular in the US. It's only lost ground due to the use of the Evangeliban and the dutiful RCC voters to advance minority agendas by the GQP.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422338#Comment_119422338

Hopefully a WOKE moment to preserve the right to abortion the Kansas State Supreme Court agreed with in 2019, leading to the vote to stop the anti-abortion amendment in its tracks.

Uriel.

I don't think anybody really gains by forcing a doctor to carry out an abortion when they have a strong objection to it.

The majority of current Consultant Obstetricians would have also been contracted long before 2018. There may be grounds to include clauses in new employment contracts but given that conscientious objection is enshrined in law now its not clear whether a contract of employment could supersede it.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425128#Comment_119425128

More votes to come. 4 more states to vote on abortion rights in November.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/accessibility/3586475-after-kansas-four-more-states-set-to-vote-on-future-of-abortion/

Vermont and California will pass their referenda. Kentucky will pass theirs and restrict abortions in that s*thole state even further. I'd rate Montana as a toss-up, Western states can be pragmatic.

Igotadose

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the HSE works.

abortion services are Consultant ob-gyn led. Consultant Ob-Gyns are hard to recruit in the first instance. 

And that's why Dr. Katherine Astbury, whose malfeasance killed Savita Halanappavar, is still practicing obstetrics in Galway. In the US she'd have been stricken off. Not in Ireland - HSE protects their own first and foremost.

ratemds.com has some reviews, Boards having trouble with the link.

Here's one review from 2021:

"Literally let’s people die. She also treats mothers as incubators, reserving no care for them. Please choose someone else, I literally do not want any more kids after the experience I had with her."

and another from 2018:

"Received medical misinformation from her team, decision made not to provide appropriate care before we actually arrived in hospital, and lied to about call from our referring doctor. We actually had to leave and race to another hospital where we fortunately received very good care (portiuncula)"

So, she's not learned from past experience.

I won't go into how the review of Savita's case absolutely trashed the performance of the physicians and the hospital. You can read the report yourself.

HSE's not fit for purpose. Unfortunately we're stuck with it, and it works well for the Government to not seriously change it. Highest administrative load in the EU, for middling/low health outcomes with some serious failures (like hiding the results from Cervical Check too.)

robindch

Interesting result in the Kansas vote to add abortion restrictions to their state constitution - rejected 2 : 1

Fascinating and fun result.

I recall emailing a fundamentalist catholic acquaintance around midnight, January 6th, last year and commenting that while #45 had added attempted insurrection to his erosion of democratic institutions within the US, particularly by stuffing SCOTUS, there was little chance that the GOP would be stupid enough to repeal Roe v Wade and, thereby, kill their electoral golden goose.

Oops.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425694#Comment_119425694

So for the women of places like Kilkenny, where all the ob-gyn consultants are either conservative catholics or muslims, it's tough luck, is it?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425694#Comment_119425694

would you say the same if a doctor had a strong objection to CPR as they think it is Gods will when a person dies?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422353#Comment_119422353

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427878#Comment_119427878

there was little chance that the GOP would be stupid enough to repeal Roe v Wade and, thereby, kill their electoral golden goose.

Well this is the thing. It's hard to pin down exactly who is pulling whose strings here but I'm convinced something as momentous and disruptive as the repeal of Roe doesn't happen unless somebody somewhere in the chain really wants it as the status quo ante suited so many parties just fine. I don't think it can be merely the outcome of various factions manipulating the issue for political advantage as if that is all the 'pro-life' movement is I'm pretty sure a way would have been found to keep Roe or something equivalent to it in place. Is the ultimate puppet master here the Catholic Church working through its minions on the Supreme Court?

Uriel.

Of course it's not tough luck nor should it be, everything possible should be done to fill gaps in health care services (not just abortion services). The error is that assuming forcing doctors to carry out terminations against their will will fix the issue.

Uriel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426904#Comment_119426904

I'm not sure what that has to do with recruitment. In any event I am not familiar with what, if any, complaint or regulatory proceedings were initiated in any of those situations.

I'm also not sure of the relevance of cervical check to the subject matter. In any event the failure to pass on audit results was a matter for treating clinicians as opposed to the HSE as an entity.

Uriel.

Say the same as what? I don't follow your point?

The performing CPR example is a terrible comparison to performing abortion.