Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m asking questions that clearly haven’t been considered.

How is asking for questions “imposing my values” on others? I think it’s more people are uncomfortable/unfamiliar with this element of the topic. I’m not absolute on this topic and some of you can’t get your head around it so are trying to Pidgeon hole the topic back to church v freedom (or something like that).

Who hasn't considered them? Abortion was more debated in Ireland over the years since 1983 than any other issue. You're late to the party if you think it hasn't.

Hotblack Desiato

Drumpot wrote: »

Your own link states exactly what I am saying:

Education and cultural values are more important factors then the cost of alcohol.

It's saying that education and cultural values have often been cited as important factors - which isn't qutie the same thing as saying that they are important factors.

Have our cultural values changed around alcohol much in that time? Looking at adults, I'd say no.

Is education in relation to it better? Hopefully because it used to be terrible.

Anyway the point was you were saying we should be seeing a drop in underage alcohol consumption, implying that we weren't. I showed you a study with evidence that underage alcohol consumption is actually dropping substantially. So can we agree on this and move on? I'm not sure how relevant it is to the discussion of free contraception. Teenagers have other things to spend their money on now apart from alcohol, e.g. phone credit.

end of the road

SusieBlue wrote: »

That's so insulting. We had a referendum, we knew what we were voting for. Repeal won by landslide. The people have spoken so don't try to imply we didn't know what we were doing when we voted Yes.

what's insulting about it?
to be fair, unless you knew what every single person was thinking in the poling booth, then you can't say that "we" as in all people who voted yes, all knew what they were voting for.
they very well may have, a majority of them very well may have, but it's not something that can be said with absolute certainty. there was no excuse for them not to know mind.

SusieBlue wrote: »

And women know exactly what they're doing when they seek a termination. They have thought it through and don't need anyone else's interferance or opinion when it comes to their choice about their womb.

unborn baby, not womb. nobody cares what someone does with their womb specifically.

SusieBlue

lazygal wrote: »

Who hasn't considered them? Abortion was more debated in Ireland over the years since 1983 than any other issue. You're late to the party if you think it hasn't.

We knew exactly what we were voting for. The No side did everything in their power to muddy the waters with fake news, skewed statistics and an emotionally manipulative poster campaign.
The Yes side still won, despite this. To say people didn't know what they were doing or didn't think of the consequences is extremely naive.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

what's insulting about it?
to be fair, unless you knew what every single person was thinking in the poling booth, then you can't say that "we" as in all people who voted yes, all knew what they were voting for.
they very well may have, a majority of them very well may have, but it's not something that can be said with absolute certainty. there was no excuse for them not to know mind.

That's hilarious seeing as you repeatedly argued the exact opposite in the run up to the referendum, I can pull up the posts if you wish.

unborn baby, not womb. nobody cares what someone does with their womb specifically.

Perfect, then you agree that what a woman does with the her womb is none of your business. I'm glad we agree.

lazygal

SusieBlue wrote: »

We knew exactly what we were voting for. The No side did everything in their power to muddy the waters with fake news, skewed statistics and an emotionally manipulative poster campaign.
The Yes side still won, despite this. To say people didn't know what they were doing or didn't think of the consequences is extremely naive.

Cora Sherlock and pals are still saying this. They clearly learned zilch from their terrible campaign and messaging. Right up to the result being announced they repeated their line about this being about abortion up to 12 weeks. Which was exactly what people knew they voted for.

Drumpot

SusieBlue wrote: »

You are free to not avail of free contraception and to not seek abortions if you find the idea of both so repugnant.
I respect your right to choose that, I just don't respect your right to inflict that view on everyone else.

You seem to be under the impression that people "haven't thought it through" and don't know what they're doing which isn't the case and is highly insulting.

Nobodies bodily autonomy should be arrested by the personal morals & ethics of strangers. Particularly when they don't agree with them.

The current law allows those who require terminations to avail of them, and those who disagree with them, can continue to live their lives as they did before. Unfortunately a lot of people still haven't accepted that the can't dictate the lives of others but I live in hope that one day they will afford others the same respect they expect themselves.

We make what we think are the best decisions at any particular time. But decisions we make have longer term implications on future generations.

You aren’t understanding what I am saying , this is clear when I you suggest I’m horrified at abortions and free contraception, when I’m not. I’m asking questions nobody wants to address , possibly because it’s not something that people consider.

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

We make what we think are the best decisions at any particular time. But decisions we make have longer term implications on future generations.

You aren’t understanding what I am saying , this is clear when I you suggest I’m horrified at abortions and free contraception, when I’m not. I’m asking questions nobody wants to address , possibly because it’s not something that people consider.

What questions do people not want to address? We've literally just come out of a 30 year debate on all sides of the abortion argument. It was debated up and down and inside out. Free contraception was considered by the eighth amendment committee too and covered in its report. Who isn't answering your questions?

Hotblack Desiato

You keep saying there are implications. What are they? Where is your evidence that they will happen? Where is your evidence that these implications (implied to be bad) will in fact be bad?

This is tiresome not only because it's been heard so many times before in recent years in relation to abortion, it's been going on for literally decades in relation to contraception. We were endlessly told that widespread access to contraception will destroy society, the family and our immortal souls...

Drumpot

SusieBlue wrote: »

We knew exactly what we were voting for. The No side did everything in their power to muddy the waters with fake news, skewed statistics and an emotionally manipulative poster campaign.
The Yes side still won, despite this. To say people didn't know what they were doing or didn't think of the consequences is extremely naive.

I voted yes.

A person doesn’t have to view this topic as absolute/binary as others. Like I said, it’s clear some of you are unsettled simply because I’m challanging your own long held dogmas on the topic.

SusieBlue

Drumpot wrote: »

We make what we think are the best decisions at any particular time. But decisions we make have longer term implications on future generations.

You aren’t understanding what I am saying , this is clear when I you suggest I’m horrified at abortions and free contraception, when I’m not. I’m asking questions nobody wants to address , possibly because it’s not something that people consider.

We are all responsible for our own choices. If we regret them, that's on us. Not on society for giving us the option.
Taking away the choice is not the answer.

Again, you are implying these are things that weren't considered or discussed in the run up to the referendum.
They were, at great length.
Everyone knew what they were voting for.
Everyone knew what voting to repeal would mean for this country.
The referendum made ineternational news, for goodness sake.
So to infer, over a whole year later, that nobody thought of the consequences and didn't consider the "questions nobody wants to address" is ludacrios.

SusieBlue

lazygal wrote: »

What questions do people not want to address? We've literally just come out of a 30 year debate on all sides of the abortion argument. It was debated up and down and inside out. Free contraception was considered by the eighth amendment committee too and covered in its report. Who isn't answering your questions?

Yes, I believe it was also one of the recommendations of the citizens assembly too.

Igotadose

Drumpot wrote: »

Abortion and contraception are very much imbedded as issues relating to religious dogmas which is fair. But to consider this more objectively you have to take religion out of the equation and ask yourself if you agree fundamentally with how we are deciding to change certain practices.

Religious and for-profit secular organizations like the numerous US-based so-called pro-life activists have injected themselves into issue that they have no particular expertise in, but use them to raise funds. I disagree that this is 'fair.' It is what it is - an imposition into a woman's health-care and life decision. Abortion is simply a matter of the human rights of the woman, and why it's endorsed by the UN. Nothing *at all* to do with religion. If the religious authorities want to do some good, at least in the case of the Irish RCC I'd compensate for the Magdalene Laundries and come clean about Tuam and the other for-profit businesses they ran using slave labor.

My major issue isn’t that contraception be made available or free or that abortions should not be available, it’s that I don’t believe the consequences of how these decisions will change our values have never been considered. And that’s partly because people value “freedom” to do what they want, instant gratification and as little responsibility as possible for their actions. That’s the society I see, not just in this topic but many other things in life.

Oh please. Debated at length for years, a citizens assembly convened about the law, by far the best discussed issue in the history of Ireland if not the Western World.

Society doesn’t appear to be getting happier, it’s getting more depressed, more anxious, more addicted (binge tv is considered kind of funny) and more disconnected to each other. I’m not suggesting this is because of abortion or anything like that, but it’s because we have replaced grounded if not sometimes misguided or bad values, with junk values.

You're entitled to your theory. My theory is there are too many people and the planet's heating up, so everyone's living more crowded, less physically comfortable lives. Economic opportunites are always getting worse, because of too many people.

You make something easy and we value it less, it really is that simple. Abortions being the go to solution if it doesn’t suit you (even for trivial reasons) devalues human life in my view. If you think I’m saying people shouldn’t have the right to abortion , just don’t respond to me, you aren’t getting it and probably won’t.

Women have the right to make their own decisions, period. Men should butt out. Men wearing long dresses preaching from pulpits in an organization that supports child rape should be ignored.

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

I voted yes.

A person doesn’t have to view this topic as absolute/binary as others. Like I said, it’s clear some of you are unsettled simply because I’m challanging your own long held dogmas on the topic.

You're not challenging anything though. You're just repeating the same questions discussed ad nauseum since 1983. At what point do you stop asking questions and look at the answers?

end of the road

SusieBlue wrote: »

That's hilarious seeing as you repeatedly argued the exact opposite in the run up to the referendum, I can pull up the posts if you wish.

nothing funny about it at all susie. i argued the opposite on the basis that there wasn't any real excuse not to inform oneself of what was being voted on.
but unfortunately watching the outcome of a certain vote in a country right across the water from us, and the fact that we are seeing more and more by the day that there were some who actually hadn't a clue and who don't believe in informing themselves about anything, it is reasonable for me to realise that the idea that some didn't know what they were voting for, may be one i shouldn't dismiss so easily.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Perfect, then you agree that what a woman does with the her womb is none of your business. I'm glad we agree.

yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.

LorelaiG

end of the road wrote: »

n

yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.

Embryo or fetus are the words you're looking for there.

Drumpot

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You keep saying there are implications. What are they? Where is your evidence that they will happen? Where is your evidence that these implications (implied to be bad) will in fact be bad?

This is tiresome not only because it's been heard so many times before in recent years in relation to abortion, it's been going on for literally decades in relation to contraception. We were endlessly told that widespread access to contraception will destroy society, the family and our immortal souls...

Who are you arguing with? Will you stop responding like I’ve said abortions and free contraception should not be available. I’ve never said that.

The implications will become clear if we don’t do this right. Back it up with education and resources to make it easy for woman/couples to equally access abortions or alternative services/resources that don’t necessarily make abortion the goto choice.

My issue with all you people is you can’t discuss the values/morals/ethics because you haven’t considered it. You just thought “pro choice” and ran with whatever information backed up this option. It’s not necessary a reflection of ignorance, probably more a reflection of the society we are building where self reflection and challenging your own views (that I’m trying to do) are not valued. So you get People like you Pidgeon holing alternative views , I’m like the religious folk or far right, because you can’t imagine anybody who tries to look at it from multiple angles.

The mistake we make , time and time again as a species, is not processing change properly and not giving it the respect/consideration needed to make it work for the best. I think abortion and free contraception are fine, once they are integrated into society in manner that’s complimented with education and a discussion on what we value as a society. There is no debates happening, just “make abortion available” and if you don’t think it’s that simple you get hounded out of here.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

nothing funny about it at all susie. i argued the opposite on the basis that there wasn't any real excuse not to inform oneself of what was being voted on.
but unfortunately watching the outcome of a certain vote in a country right across the water from us, and the fact that we are seeing more and more by the day that there were some who actually hadn't a clue and who don't believe in informing themselves about anything, it is reasonable for me to realise that the idea that some didn't know what they were voting for, may be one i shouldn't dismiss so easily.



yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.

Women are more important than the contents of their womb. Her needs and wants trump that of a pre 12 week gestated fetus.
If you wish to put the fetus in your own womb before yourself, more power to you. You don't get to decide that on behalf of everyone, though.
Its really that simple. We've had this conversation many times and you still don't get it.

Drumpot

SusieBlue wrote: »

We are all responsible for our own choices. If we regret them, that's on us. Not on society for giving us the option.
Taking away the choice is not the answer.

Again, you are implying these are things that weren't considered or discussed in the run up to the referendum.
They were, at great length.
Everyone knew what they were voting for.
Everyone knew what voting to repeal would mean for this country.
The referendum made ineternational news, for goodness sake.
So to infer, over a whole year later, that nobody thought of the consequences and didn't consider the "questions nobody wants to address" is ludacrios.

What is being done so far to educate and implement abortions into our country? Genuine question.

Has it been included in schools for debates? Genuine question.

One thing that does give me hope is that I was at an “educate together” school promotion and it does look like these schools are promoting debate and individual thinking/challanging of ones views. I think it’s important that healthy discussion are continually encouraged on all aspects of society. Conformed thinking can be good and bad, I like the idea of people learning to properly challange themselves and other. I didn’t learn this growing up and I think most of us Learn just how to win arguments or convince others of what we believe.

Perhaps the way I have posted has upset some here, my intentions were to try and have a meaningful discussion but this a topic I find upsetting and emotive which was why I stayed away. I thought after the vote was in people might be able to discuss it with less emotion, whether it is this or the way I am posting (maybe both) I don’t really want to be arguing with people.

This is my point. I don’t believe we have grown up in a world where we are prepared to have our views challanged, I mean myself aswell. I’m obviously not communicating my point here because I’ve made the same decisions most of you have made but I’ve agonised a lot over the implications that I see that can come from the Likes of this and other societal issues.

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

What is being done so far to educate and implement abortions into our country? Genuine question.

On the medical side, GPs and ob-gyns are attending training sessions and there are more GPs signing up and plans are on track to expand abortion services in all 19 maternity units, currently 11 provide it.
On the school side, there's a revised RSE programme being planned but needless to say the major stumbling block are religious patrons who want to be able to continue to offer biased, ethos based sex education.



Are you really asking questions you want answers to or are you meaning to sound like you think everyone but you hasn't really thought about abortion, contraception and reproductive rights over the past 30 years?

SusieBlue

Drumpot wrote: »

What is being done so far to educate and implement abortions into our country? Genuine question.

Has it been included in schools for debates? Genuine question.

One thing that does give me hope is that I was at an “educate together” school promotion and it does look like these schools are promoting debate and individual thinking/challanging of ones views. I think it’s important that healthy discussion are continually encouraged on all aspects of society. Conformed thinking can be good and bad, I like the idea of people learning to properly challange themselves and other. I didn’t learn this growing up and I think most of us Learn just how to win arguments or convince others of what we believe.

Perhaps the way I have posted has upset some here, my intentions were to try and have a meaningful discussion but this a topic I find upsetting and emotive which was why I stayed away. I thought after the vote was in people might be able to disused it with less emotion, whether it is this or the way I am posting (maybe both) I don’t really want to be arguing with people.

This is my point. I don’t believe we have grown up in a world where we are prepared to have our views challanged, I mean myself aswell. I’m obviously not communicating my point here because I’ve made the same decisions most of you have made but I’ve agonised a lot over the implications that I see that can come from the Likes of this and other societal issues.

We aren't implementing abortions, that was never the objective of the Yes campaign.
There is a wealth of impartial advice available from government approved websites for those who need the information.

GP's who offer abortion services, the rape crisis centre, domestic violence charities and even maternity hospitals (for cases of fatal fetal abnormalities) also offer information and counselling for those who are considering it as an option.

There is a plan to roll out abortion to be included as one of many options for an unplanned pregnancy in sex education in secondary schools, but opposition from the church is delaying that, unfortunately.

By your logic if I smoked all my life and got cancer, I should be mad at the government because I didn't personally take the initiative to educate myself on the negative effects of smoking.
We don't need to be saved from ourselves, we all have free will.
As adults have a personal responsibility to educate ourselves on the more serious decisions we have to make in life.
If choose not to do that, or if we regret that choice...Well, no one forced us to smoke the cigarettes, did they?

Hotblack Desiato

Drumpot wrote: »

Who are you arguing with? Will you stop responding like I’ve said abortions and free contraception should not be available. I’ve never said that.

Not arguing, asking questions. I asked you specific questions about the "implications" you keep referring to. You didn't address any of the questions I asked. Ho hum.

The implications will become clear if we don’t do this right.

What implications? What evidence for same? Etc....

Back it up with education and resources to make it easy for woman/couples to equally access abortions or alternative services/resources that don’t necessarily make abortion the goto choice.

I've yet to hear any pro-choice person argue against this.

My issue with all you people is you can’t discuss the values/morals/ethics because you haven’t considered it.

That's ignorant, arrogant, and patronising beyond belief.

So you get People like you Pidgeon holing alternative views , I’m like the religious folk or far right, because you can’t imagine anybody who tries to look at it from multiple angles.

No what I said was that you were echoing a particular reactionary right-wing catholic view and you surely must be aware of that. So what I'd like to know is why you are expressing agreement with vague, unevidenced and not credible viewpoints like "contraception erodes respect for life".

There is no debates happening, just “make abortion available” and if you don’t think it’s that simple you get hounded out of here.

We had debate. For years. Were you paying any attention to it? Have you read the report of the citizens' assembly? They didn't just recommend we should have abortion, you know.

Drumpot

lazygal wrote: »

On the medical side, GPs and ob-gyns are attending training sessions and there are more GPs signing up and plans are on track to expand abortion services in all 19 maternity units, currently 11 provide it.
On the school side, there's a revised RSE programme being planned but needless to say the major stumbling block are religious patrons who want to be able to continue to offer biased, ethos based sex education.



Are you really asking questions you want answers to or are you meaning to sound like you think everyone but you hasn't really thought about abortion, contraception and reproductive rights over the past 30 years?

Genuine questions.

I don’t have all the answers and there’s a lot I don’t know about this. I’ve raised concerns I have because We don’t have all the answers and we don’t know how this might change our values in the longer term.

I’m regularly misinterpreted because I always try and see different angles on most things that can often drive me mad. I voted yes for good reasons, as I do believe a woman should be able to choose but I don’t know how I feel about abortions. It’s not about looking down on people who choose it, it’s about how we as a society choose to integrate it into our lives.

I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me.

Now that’s not a reason to not have abortion, but it’s one reason to pause and reflect now that abortions are available. The war is won on abortions, i would like to see these sort of things (mental/health after abortions, supports for male partners) also addresses and out in the open. I don’t want abortion to be a shameful decision to make but I fundamentally believe. it should be a hard decision every time. Maybe it is, perhaps my view is skewered somewhat by somebody I know who had multiple abortions and doesn’t appear to be too bothered by it, but I think we learn more from our decisions when there is a cost we understand and are prepared to take.

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

Genuine questions.

I don’t have all the answers and there’s a lot I don’t know about this. I’ve raised concerns I have because We don’t have all the answers and we don’t know how this might change our values in the longer term.

I’m regularly misinterpreted because I always try and see different angles on most things that can often drive me mad. I voted yes for good reasons, as I do believe a woman should be able to choose but I don’t know how I feel about abortions. It’s not about looking down on people who choose it, it’s about how we as a society choose to integrate it into our lives.

I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me.

Now that’s not a reason to not have abortion, but it’s one reason to pause and reflect now that abortions are available. The war is won on abortions, i would like to see these sort of things (mental/health after abortions, supports for male partners) also addresses and out in the open. I don’t want abortion to be a shameful decision to make but I fundamentally believe. it should be a hard decision every time. Maybe it is, perhaps my view is skewered somewhat by somebody I know who had multiple abortions and doesn’t appear to be too bothered by it, but I think we learn more from our decisions when there is a cost we understand and are prepared to take.

I have two sons. They have no right to be annoyed that someone else is deciding to have an abortion. That line of reasoning gives me no pause for reflection. Abortion is a normal medical procedure. It doesn't have to be hard as a decision. My family is complete. I don't want any more children. Another pregnancy wouldn't be a hard decision for me, I would have an abortion. Why should it always have to be a hard decision, exactly?

Sidenote: The only 'side' I've heard say they know people who've had multiple abortions are those who don't want abortion to be available and frame these stories as tales of irresponsible slutty girls who are reckless with their bodies. It is of no concern to me how many abortions someone has, once that is the right choice for them. They may regret them, they may not. But just like its no business of mine how many pregnancies anyone miscarries or continues to full term, there is no reason to see someone's reproductive choices as a possible reason to disallow choice to all.

Salary Negotiator

Drumpot wrote: »

I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me.

It’s pretty simple though, all he has to do is not have sex with a girl and he won’t be in that position.

Drumpot

lazygal wrote: »

I have two sons. They have no right to be annoyed that someone else is deciding to have an abortion. That line of reasoning gives me no pause for reflection. Abortion is a normal medical procedure. It doesn't have to be hard as a decision. My family is complete. I don't want any more children. Another pregnancy wouldn't be a hard decision for me, I would have an abortion. Why should it always have to be a hard decision, exactly?

Sidenote: The only 'side' I've heard say they know people who've had multiple abortions are those who don't want abortion to be available and frame these stories as tales of irresponsible slutty girls who are reckless with their bodies. It is of no concern to me how many abortions someone has, once that is the right choice for them. They may regret them, they may not. But just like its no business of mine how many pregnancies anyone miscarries or continues to full term, there is no reason to see someone's reproductive choices as a possible reason to disallow choice to all.

Why did you misinterpret what I said? I never said a man getting annoyed, i said a man getting upset with a decision his partner had made.

So now men’s feelings don’t matter and they should just suck it up if it upsets them? I do not believe This is a very progressive attitude to take on this matter. But I understand Your position a bit better. I can see coming here for was a mistake.

lazygal

Drumpot wrote: »

Why did you misinterpret what I said? I never said a man getting annoyed, i said a man getting upset with a decision his partner had made.

So now men’s feelings don’t matter and they should just suck it up if it upsets them? I do not believe This is a very progressive attitude to take on this matter. But I understand Your position a bit better. I can see coming here for was a mistake.

Yes, men should suck it up if someone's reproductive choices makes them upset. Why on earth would your sons possibly getting upset about a possible future woman having a possible abortion even be on your radar? My sons know my uterus is mine, and their sister's is hers. No woman has to stay pregnant because some fella might be upset.

aloyisious

Peregrinus wrote: »

When I was that age a pack of two would have lasted me, um, a while.


I recognise that I'm on the hind foot here, having weighed into this conversation with a half-remembered article that I can't cite, and for which I made claims that I have since conceded were overblown. So my credibility is maybe a bit shot. But, still:

1. I don't object to making contraception freely available. Nor do I object to making it freely available, but only to women, though I am curious to know what the thinking here is.

2. I'm just a bit sceptical of the assumption that "this'll reduce the frequency of abortions", which is the point I came in to make.

3. I think policy here ought to be evidence-based. If we want to reduce the frequency of abortions, step 1 is an exploration of the factors that sustain the current frequency.

It seems to be an accepted truism that alcohol reduces one's perceptive powers and makes one likely to random risky acts not usually committed. If I'm correct, its also an accepted truism that condoms and contraceptives prevent pregnancies occurring [even allowing for the vagaries of chance] which is why people [male and female] are advised to carry condoms with them on nights out. Maybe I'm making a leap in the dark here that it'd be an ipso facto that with a reduced number of pregnancies [as a result of using contraceptive measures] there should be a corresponding reduction of abortions but I doubt if it would take a study to confirm that to be factual. There probably is a study somewhere on the thesis that a reduction in one carries over into a reduction in the other.

It might be also that with an increased population number and more people not ascribing to religious faith orthodoxy on pregnancies that there would be a corresponding increase in both use of condoms, contraceptives and of abortion and termination operations amongst the population.

In respect to making contraception free only to women [as presented by Simon Harris] I'm assuming he means contraceptive measures applicable to females only and he doesn't plan to include male condoms on the free list. I'm also assuming that the female contraceptive costs a lot more than a male condom does and Simon reckoned that the average male can well afford the cost of a condom.

EDIT: I do agree with you on one part of your input, that there may be a pro-rata increase between the number of conceptions and abortions, but reckon that's probably down to both male and female persons deciding to partake in sex without using contraception measures and without regard to the chance that nature will take its course.

aloyisious

Drumpot wrote: »

Genuine questions.

I don’t have all the answers and there’s a lot I don’t know about this. I’ve raised concerns I have because We don’t have all the answers and we don’t know how this might change our values in the longer term.

I’m regularly misinterpreted because I always try and see different angles on most things that can often drive me mad. I voted yes for good reasons, as I do believe a woman should be able to choose but I don’t know how I feel about abortions. It’s not about looking down on people who choose it, it’s about how we as a society choose to integrate it into our lives.

I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me.

Now that’s not a reason to not have abortion, but it’s one reason to pause and reflect now that abortions are available. The war is won on abortions, i would like to see these sort of things (mental/health after abortions, supports for male partners) also addresses and out in the open. I don’t want abortion to be a shameful decision to make but I fundamentally believe. it should be a hard decision every time. Maybe it is, perhaps my view is skewered somewhat by somebody I know who had multiple abortions and doesn’t appear to be too bothered by it, but I think we learn more from our decisions when there is a cost we understand and are prepared to take.

It seems to me that your conundrums on abortion are based on you putting yourself into both the shoes of your sons and of a person who had several abortions but doesn't seem worried by that.

The first may be solvable by you sitting down with your sons and asking them if they would be upset if any of their partners decided for herself that she would end her pregnancy without seeking their agreement first. There would be no other point of her asking them for their agreement if she was not going to heed a NO from them. If your sons tell you a partners singular decision to have an abortion without seeking their agreement would have no effect on them, then your upset is needless. They might also feel obliged to tell you that that was between them and their partners and none of your affair.

The second point you mentioned was of the woman who had several abortions without being worried. You have said you voted YES and you agree with abortion. It seems therefor [from what you say] that the woman actions are no concern of yours. You will never be able to stand in her shoes nor be able to relate to her decisions so you are probably getting yourself upset over something that has no relative concern or effect on you.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

nothing funny about it at all susie. i argued the opposite on the basis that there wasn't any real excuse not to inform oneself of what was being voted on.
but unfortunately watching the outcome of a certain vote in a country right across the water from us, and the fact that we are seeing more and more by the day that there were some who actually hadn't a clue and who don't believe in informing themselves about anything, it is reasonable for me to realise that the idea that some didn't know what they were voting for, may be one i shouldn't dismiss so easily.



yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.

One of the arguments made by the Yes campaign through debate around Ireland in relation to the delete the 8th issue was that a lot of the people who voted in the 8th amendment in '82/83 actually hadn't a clue and didn't inform themselves on the outcome of putting the 8th into our constitution and may have decided it was time to make another change to it. This time the issue was strongly debated and argued on by both sides for months before a national decision was made by the voters on it whether to delete the 8th or let it stay. The fact that a large number of the Yes voters who decided delete the 8th issue were also involved in putting the 8th into the constitution showed [IMO] how the voters thought process had matured strongly when it came to the nitty-gritty of the referendum question and the future outcome of and vote, yea or nay.

On the issue of what occurred across the water, that's like what happened to us in '82 and most probably why
we've been getting our knickers in a twist here about the con-job pulled on the referendum voters there by their retired National and EU Parliamentarians, seeing as we learned a hard-won lesson from the '82
referendum.